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Future Null Infinity

Suddenly, Jon stopped having faith in the greatness of Wall!!

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It is the biggest and strangest plot hole in the show for me : Jon who served in the night's watch, knows everything about the WW and the function of the wall and why it was built, suddenly after seeing the NK and the WW he pursuaded himself that the they are going to attack Westeros very soon (I don't remember him stealing the NK's plans) and stopped having faith in the wall that protected Westeros for 8000 years! and started building armies to fight them

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Well there was that part where the Free Folk scaled the Wall in pretty large numbers and a giant (or was it two?) nearly broke through into Castle Black all on his own.

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11 minutes ago, Anarres said:

Well there was that part where the Free Folk scaled the Wall in pretty large numbers and a giant (or was it two?) nearly broke through into Castle Black all on his own.

Too bad Bran didn't inform that there is magic in the Wall to keep the dead out.

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10 minutes ago, Ice Walker said:

Too bad Bran didn't inform that there is magic in the Wall to keep the dead out.

Characters are not allowed to ask Bran apposite questions.  Bran is not allowed to offer useful information.  You were beautiful when you made your post.

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6 hours ago, Col Cinders said:

Characters are not allowed to ask Bran apposite questions.  Bran is not allowed to offer useful information.  You were beautiful when you made your post.

i love this :lmao: 

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I think that spells in The Wall are becoming weaker. Those spells are magic of Children of the Forest and Old gods. Children were becoming exstinct (probably all dead by now), and Old gods are loosing their power. Currently in Westeros dominiring religion is Faith of Seven, no one even remembers name of Old gods, now they are called just that - OLD gods. Faith is god's food. So when gods are not worshipped, eventually they loose their power and dissapear.

Probably Wall besides being a material structure, are also surrownded with magical barrier, some sort of force field that goes way beyond bondaries of The Wall, many miles into the far north. But with time (because Old gods are becoming forgotten, and their heart trees cut down) that barrier is becoming thinner. Previously White Walkers couldn't even get close to The Wall, that's why for many hundreds years people haven't seen them - they all were kept far away by that barrier. 

Mance Reyder told Jon something like Night's King is becoming stronger and getting closer. So Jon was aware that eventually Undead army will reach The Wall. And they also have undead giants, MANY of them. So it's out of the question whether Wall will fall, it's just a matter of time WHEN will it happen.

Even without Jon's suicide mission beyond The Wall, that indirectly caused death of one dragon, and its turning into Ice dragon, Night's King eventually would've breached The Wall.

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23 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

It is the biggest and strangest plot hole in the show for me : Jon who served in the night's watch, knows everything about the WW and the function of the wall and why it was built, suddenly after seeing the NK and the WW he pursuaded himself that the they are going to attack Westeros very soon (I don't remember him stealing the NK's plans) and stopped having faith in the wall that protected Westeros for 8000 years! and started building armies to fight them

To be fair, he did not have an idea how powerful was the NK and the AoD until he really saw him.. I think there is a logic.. (we may think that we would act differently but is reasonable).

 

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IMO, if it was done 'the right way' The Wall defense should've been really different.

* Cut the Haunted Forest down, as much  as possible, burn the rest. Make outposts system with fire pits so you can sygnal forward towards the wall that undead are approaching.

* Man all the castles with not too many watchers, just to make sure each castle is manned enough you can build certain defenses, have the place running and ready, etc.

* Have a big number of people in reserves, ready to come to defenses on every castle when needed. Probably mid way between major castle on the wall.

All this because if you battle the dead, your best chances are winning at the Wall and using the Wall, not some open fields outside KL.

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I think that it is a legitamate fear. And remember the wall hasn't really been tested against the WW. They haven't really been seen in large numbers since the long night was ended and now they will come in force. I think the sheer power and magic that comes with them may overpower the walls magic. Plus I think jon has now learned that the worst possibility is the most likely one. Also jon doesn't know about the magic in the wall so in his mind they could just climb it.

 

Also the children of the forest are all dead as far as we know and the old magic has been dying for years. That might effect it.

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10 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that spells in The Wall are becoming weaker. Those spells are magic of Children of the Forest and Old gods. Children were becoming exstinct (probably all dead by now), and Old gods are loosing their power. Currently in Westeros dominiring religion is Faith of Seven, no one even remembers name of Old gods, now they are called just that - OLD gods. Faith is god's food. So when gods are not worshipped, eventually they loose their power and dissapear.

Probably Wall besides being a material structure, are also surrownded with magical barrier, some sort of force field that goes way beyond bondaries of The Wall, many miles into the far north. But with time (because Old gods are becoming forgotten, and their heart trees cut down) that barrier is becoming thinner. Previously White Walkers couldn't even get close to The Wall, that's why for many hundreds years people haven't seen them - they all were kept far away by that barrier. 

Mance Reyder told Jon something like Night's King is becoming stronger and getting closer. So Jon was aware that eventually Undead army will reach The Wall. And they also have undead giants, MANY of them. So it's out of the question whether Wall will fall, it's just a matter of time WHEN will it happen.

Even without Jon's suicide mission beyond The Wall, that indirectly caused death of one dragon, and its turning into Ice dragon, Night's King eventually would've breached The Wall.

Actually the old gods never had names for humans. I can't remember where I read it but in one of the books it says they are like secret gods.

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27 minutes ago, elbucho3 said:

One thing I can't figure out re: The Wall's magic ... how are they able to carry the captured Wight through Eastwatch? 

Guessing that Drogon flew over and around the Wall and landed on the south side of the wall where all of the brothers live.

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24 minutes ago, elbucho3 said:

One thing I can't figure out re: The Wall's magic ... how are they able to carry the captured Wight through Eastwatch? 

Directly thru gates.

Or around the farthest eastern part of The Wall. The Wall is a line, and it has beginning and end.  They can go around Wall's end side, which is located near Eastwatch. Wildlings are often using this route to go beyond The Wall and trade with pirats and smugglers.

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22 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that spells in The Wall are becoming weaker. Those spells are magic of Children of the Forest and Old gods. Children were becoming exstinct (probably all dead by now), and Old gods are loosing their power. Currently in Westeros dominiring religion is Faith of Seven, no one even remembers name of Old gods, now they are called just that - OLD gods. Faith is god's food. So when gods are not worshipped, eventually they loose their power and dissapear.

Probably Wall besides being a material structure, are also surrownded with magical barrier, some sort of force field that goes way beyond bondaries of The Wall, many miles into the far north. But with time (because Old gods are becoming forgotten, and their heart trees cut down) that barrier is becoming thinner. Previously White Walkers couldn't even get close to The Wall, that's why for many hundreds years people haven't seen them - they all were kept far away by that barrier. 

Mance Reyder told Jon something like Night's King is becoming stronger and getting closer. So Jon was aware that eventually Undead army will reach The Wall. And they also have undead giants, MANY of them. So it's out of the question whether Wall will fall, it's just a matter of time WHEN will it happen.

Even without Jon's suicide mission beyond The Wall, that indirectly caused death of one dragon, and its turning into Ice dragon, Night's King eventually would've breached The Wall.

Not every deity in every work of fiction is dependent on human faith... 

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15 hours ago, elbucho3 said:

One thing I can't figure out re: The Wall's magic ... how are they able to carry the captured Wight through Eastwatch? 

The same way a couple of wights playing dead were carried to Castle Black in the first season through the gates in the Wall.

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It made sense to me. After all, the White Walkers have been quiet for thousands of years, and they suddenly appear? If they're marching to the wall, it's because they've got a plan to get past it. Unfortunately for Jon, the logical conclusion ended up helping the White Walkers out, because as it turned out they never had a plan to get past the wall that DIDN'T involve a dragon. Had Daenerys and her dragons stayed south of the wall the White Walkers would've been stuck up there forever.

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I don't get the "suddenly" in this title. This has been Jon's story for a few seasons now. And it's not at all unreasonable.

Yes, the Wall was built to keep out the dead after the Battle for the Dawn was won 8000 years ago, but it's never been tested. Yes, there are ancient legends about its magic keeping out the dead, but Jon knows no details of how that magic works.

Meanwhile, the Night King is marching on the Wall with his army, so presumably he thinks he has a way through. And there's at least once ancient legend about a way through (the Horn of Joramun), so that's idea isn't impossible. Sure, maybe he's an idiot, and he's just going to stand there staring up at the Wall with a useless army for another 8000 years—but if I were Jon, I certainly wouldn't be counting on that.

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1 hour ago, Thor Odinson said:

It made sense to me. After all, the White Walkers have been quiet for thousands of years, and they suddenly appear? If they're marching to the wall, it's because they've got a plan to get past it. Unfortunately for Jon, the logical conclusion ended up helping the White Walkers out, because as it turned out they never had a plan to get past the wall that DIDN'T involve a dragon. Had Daenerys and her dragons stayed south of the wall the White Walkers would've been stuck up there forever.

Or they did have a plan to get past, and the dragon was just an easy way to bring the whole Wall down.

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The wall is strong, but only if it's properly manned. John's plan was to fortify the Night Watch with armies from the continent, but he couldn't get them there in time. 

Of course, that's what the proper logic should be. The show writers ignore logic for "Suspension of Disbelief" to carry the story, so John never mentions the Wall.

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