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AryaSansa

LittleFinger from the character's viewpoint

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All I hear is how LittleFinger is a terrible person from all the characters in the show.  Sure he is terrible, but that's because we see his actions as the audience of the TV show.

What I don't get is how the characters know he is terrible.

For instance, when Sansa got mad at him for marrying her off to Ramsay, she used specious logic where she said if he knew Ramsey was bad, he's evil, if he didn't, he's "an idiot".  If Sansa didn't know herself, would she be an idiot as well?  If Roose Bolton didn't even know, wouldn't he be an idiot too?  The show never demonstrates that Ramsay's psyhotic tendencies are known throughout Westeros, but not too much that it is unknown to Sansa.  Besides, Little Finger's motives / benefits in marrying Sansa to Ramsey aren't exact clear.  The only time Little Finger could be suspected of being evil instead of pragmatic was when she pushed Lysa out the Moon Door.  But even still, that may have saved Sansa in the future since Lysa was endangering Sansa.

Furthermore, Little Finger's actions haven't been entirely consistent with his self-serving nature.  Why save Sansa from King's Landing?  Why save Jon and Sansa vs the Boltons instead of letting the Boltons wipe out Jon and the Vale taking the North for themselves?  And what is his motive in creating faux discord between Sansa and Arya?  He should technically have the largest army stationed in the North.

All this faux drama seems to be a manufactured conflict by the show writers to kill him off.

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On 26.08.2017 at 0:04 PM, AryaSansa said:

All I hear is how LittleFinger is a terrible person from all the characters in the show.  Sure he is terrible, but that's because we see his actions as the audience of the TV show.

What I don't get is how the characters know he is terrible.

For instance, when Sansa got mad at him for marrying her off to Ramsay, she used specious logic where she said if he knew Ramsey was bad, he's evil, if he didn't, he's "an idiot".  If Sansa didn't know herself, would she be an idiot as well?  If Roose Bolton didn't even know, wouldn't he be an idiot too?  The show never demonstrates that Ramsay's psyhotic tendencies are known throughout Westeros, but not too much that it is unknown to Sansa.  Besides, Little Finger's motives / benefits in marrying Sansa to Ramsey aren't exact clear.  The only time Little Finger could be suspected of being evil instead of pragmatic was when she pushed Lysa out the Moon Door.  But even still, that may have saved Sansa in the future since Lysa was endangering Sansa.

Furthermore, Little Finger's actions haven't been entirely consistent with his self-serving nature.  Why save Sansa from King's Landing?  Why save Jon and Sansa vs the Boltons instead of letting the Boltons wipe out Jon and the Vale taking the North for themselves?  And what is his motive in creating faux discord between Sansa and Arya?  He should technically have the largest army stationed in the North.

All this faux drama seems to be a manufactured conflict by the show writers to kill him off.

"She" probably is a typo. 

When Lysa was having a hysteric she confessed killing and lying because LF asked her- Sansa heard that. LF told Sansa the whole plan of Joffrey's death, the plan that set up Sansa (I mean she was used as pawn to smuggle the poison) for king's murder. Anyone who thinks that LF has no purpose and does not check the whole info before acting is an idiot- Sansa is not, as it appeared. Thus, calling him either an idiot or evil is logical. 

As for "wait until Jon and some other northerners die and then come to save the day with the Vale army" - everything here is perfectly logical: Vale is not the North, despite the fact that Sansa is a Stark (she is twice married to the enemy), LF needed Northerners to support her claim, additionally, he would gain more Sansa's trust. I also doubt that he could manipulate the exact time when the Vale army comes to the help - they almost missed, anyway, may be it was sheer luck that they didn't.

Faux drama or not...I find it quite poetic that cunning LF, a person directly responsible for some many things, including Ned's death, will be nailed to the wall by children, which is more important by Ned's children. He thought that Ned was a fool, he mocked him and betrayed him, he apparently thought he could play his children, too, but in the end they will be the ones that take him down. What is funny: none of the children, not even Sansa, trusts him.

 

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On 8/26/2017 at 2:04 AM, AryaSansa said:

All I hear is how LittleFinger is a terrible person from all the characters in the show.  Sure he is terrible, but that's because we see his actions as the audience of the TV show.

What I don't get is how the characters know he is terrible.

For instance, when Sansa got mad at him for marrying her off to Ramsay, she used specious logic where she said if he knew Ramsey was bad, he's evil, if he didn't, he's "an idiot".  If Sansa didn't know herself, would she be an idiot as well?  If Roose Bolton didn't even know, wouldn't he be an idiot too?  The show never demonstrates that Ramsay's psyhotic tendencies are known throughout Westeros, but not too much that it is unknown to Sansa.  Besides, Little Finger's motives / benefits in marrying Sansa to Ramsey aren't exact clear.  The only time Little Finger could be suspected of being evil instead of pragmatic was when she pushed Lysa out the Moon Door.  But even still, that may have saved Sansa in the future since Lysa was endangering Sansa.

Furthermore, Little Finger's actions haven't been entirely consistent with his self-serving nature.  Why save Sansa from King's Landing?  Why save Jon and Sansa vs the Boltons instead of letting the Boltons wipe out Jon and the Vale taking the North for themselves?  And what is his motive in creating faux discord between Sansa and Arya?  He should technically have the largest army stationed in the North.

All this faux drama seems to be a manufactured conflict by the show writers to kill him off.

This is a very profound post!  Personally, I have been taking this POV of Littlefinger for quite some time - and to much resistance here.  I think people do not like LF NOT because of the often malicious plots he starts but because they view him as haughty and sort of and "upstart".  With the dynamics of this world of Westeros, in the books you can see it more...... the Lords of the Vale are INCENSED that LF is now basically ruling the Vale as warden over Sweet Robyn and the fact he was Lysa's husband.  In the books they basically ALL say "you are not truly of us" and they even said this of Lysa herself!

But getting back to the show, this season is undoubtedly diverging completely away from the books.  It has been heading that direction for the last few seasons but S7 is now totally different.

The drama in Winterfell that will no doubt lead to LF's death is completely a staged event for script purposes and nothing more.  EVERYTHING you have said about Sansa, I have said a hundred times here, and it's true but no one wants to believe it.  No one wants to believe LF sheltered and protected Sansa - which has no bearing on the fact it was in his master plan to use her in various ways to get what he wants.  But WHY is  this so damning?  I can't think of a single character in the show that does NOT do almost everything because it benefits their higher agenda.

Just to clarify one thing (there's a lot here) Sansa had a choice to marry Ramsey.  It was never clear if LF knew what Ramsey was.... I have made EXTENDED arguments that the sexual/violent proclivities of a random bastard in a minor house in the North would not be priority knowledge for anyone - even LF.  When Sansa threatened to use Brienne to kill him for not knowing, that was the beginning of the faux drama that will lead to LF's death.  It makes no sense, and remember, Sansa was NOT even the person truly in this situation - it was Jeyne Poole (in the books).

Thank you for making these cogent points.

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1 hour ago, Gala said:

 

Anyone who thinks that LF has no purpose and does not check the whole info before acting is an idiot- Sansa is not, as it appeared. Thus, calling him either an idiot or evil is logical. 

Faux drama or not...I find it quite poetic that cunning LF, a person directly responsible for some many things, including Ned's death, will be nailed to the wall by children, which is more important by Ned's children. He thought that Ned was a fool, he mocked him and betrayed him, he apparently thought he could play his children, too, but in the end they will be the ones that take him down. What is funny: none of the children, not even Sansa, trusts him.

LF's plan was to get Sansa into Winterfell while knowing Stannis was coming and would most likely defeat the Boltons anyway.  I have made the argument too many times that it is doubtful LF had spies in the Deadfort at all..... and those spies would not be assigned to obtain knowledge of the sexual/violent proclivities of a random bastard in a minor house.  Ramsey only became legitimized a little while prior to the marriage.  Sansa is basically saying "I condemn you for not being omniscient" and threatens his life.  Up until Ramsey, Sansa was a little chick in the hands of LF protected from ever angle, housed and fed in the glamour and rich lifestyle to which she was accustomed, rescued her (at the peril of himself) from KL.... on and on.

I want to say this while it may be confrontational.  Ned WAS a fool.  Littlefinger tried to warn Ned and Ned did not listen.  Ned went into a nest of vipers and said basically "I will not play your game" and does all kinds of extremely dangerous things like openly threatening Cersei about the incest..... I mean, Ned had a Death Wish!  Sure, we can all praise him for being upright and forthright and honest with integrity.  But when you go into a place like KL and do not act like a viper yourself, you have no business being there because you WILL be bitten and killed.  Fact.

So, LF gets blamed for Ned's death?  After warning him what he should do IN the capital to keep himself safe?  WTF?  No props to LF for this.   Ned was headstrong and refused to listen to LF's advice on how to conduct himself in the capital.  WHY would LF do this?  What reason would he have to warn Ned privately with the intention of hoping he would keep himself safe?  Ned Did Not Listen.  Ned Got Killed For Not Listening. 

LF has always been completely honest with Sansa about "I make every decision with my ultimate goal in mind".  He never lied to her.  He didn't lie to Ned.  Yet, he's like the Most Evil of Westeros and worthy of a slit throat.  Disliked and just plain evil.  Also, with this silly Winterfell plot with Arya and Sansa and LF........ who can blame LF for trying to do all he can to SURVIVE?  Wouldn't you?  Sansa has all the cards and I wouldn't doubt if she finally spills his secrets to everyone and he gets executed.  All because LF is evil, we must hate him, and Sansa blames him for all things Ramsey and her PTSD..... it's bad writing and a false, one-dimensional view of a character who was so much more than that.

LF came from nothing and climbed high.  You don't do that without getting dirty along the way and compromising yourself.  I can understand why people hate LF..... but I also think they hate him for the wrong reasons.

User "@ArySana" has provided a human perspective to Littlefinger which is rarely an acceptable POV with people on this forum.  It is like the Light and Dark side of the force, and no in between.  LF is Dark Side and must die.  But there are so many other characters who are evil in their own ways and do not get this highly irrational treatment.

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50 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

 

I want to say this while it may be confrontational.  Ned WAS a fool.  Littlefinger tried to warn Ned and Ned did not listen.  Ned went into a nest of vipers and said basically "I will not play your game" and does all kinds of extremely dangerous things like openly threatening Cersei about the incest..... I mean, Ned had a Death Wish!  Sure, we can all praise him for being upright and forthright and honest with integrity.  But when you go into a place like KL and do not act like a viper yourself, you have no business being there because you WILL be bitten and killed.  Fact.

 

Thank you clarifying, as if I haven't read the books and do not know the story.

In the eyes of dishonorable people he was a fool, I mean people without any kind of morality - Cersei, at that time Jaime, Tywin...Littlefinger is on top of them all, so yes, I was happy when despite their innocence Cersei's 2 kids died - she deserved that more than anyone and it all was her doing; Jaime, too, for that matter. Tywin should have died screaming, but he died shamefully, which is also a little bit satisfying. 

I will die of joy if or when Ned's kids kill LF. He is the ugliest person, even worse than obvious monsters like Ramsey or the Mountain. 

1 hour ago, Iron Mother said:

 

So, LF gets blamed for Ned's death?  After warning him what he should do IN the capital to keep himself safe?  WTF?  No props to LF for this.   Ned was headstrong and refused to listen to LF's advice on how to conduct himself in the capital.  WHY would LF do this?  What reason would he have to warn Ned privately with the intention of hoping he would keep himself safe?  Ned Did Not Listen.  Ned Got Killed For Not Listening. 

 

Wasn't LF the one who actually "helped" with the execution? I doubt that Joffrey made it up himself especially when everyone explained why they were going to sent Lord Stark to the Wall. Varys, Cersei, Sansa were in shock, while Payne and Slynt were ready and not surprised - it seems Tyrion has established that it was done on purpose, hasn't he?

"Not listening" and "should not trust anyone" - was just mocking and it wasn't even an advise. Anyway, LF lied about the dagger, for one. 

1 hour ago, Iron Mother said:

 

LF came from nothing and climbed high.  You don't do that without getting dirty along the way and compromising yourself.  I can understand why people hate LF..... but I also think they hate him for the wrong reasons.

 

That is just a lame excuse - "you don't do that without getting dirty along the way". Oh, please, LF didn't do something right or great for humanity or people. He was climbing the ladder to whatever reasons...to screw over the lords, to gain money, to gain power... a little disgusting person. He knew from the very beginning that his way is a dirty way, because he was ugly inside from the very beginning. I don't even have pity for him because of a broken heart (although, Catlyne was never in relationship with him), because things like that heal- you go on and live your life. What kind of person you should be if you become something like that in the end because some girl didn't love you back and married someone else instead. It is a rhetorical question.

Whatever reasons people (I assume you are talking about readers/watchers) have to hate him, they are just. For me he represents the worst kind of people I had experience with.
 

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On 8/26/2017 at 4:04 AM, AryaSansa said:

All I hear is how LittleFinger is a terrible person from all the characters in the show.  Sure he is terrible, but that's because we see his actions as the audience of the TV show.

What I don't get is how the characters know he is terrible.

For instance, when Sansa got mad at him for marrying her off to Ramsay, she used specious logic where she said if he knew Ramsey was bad, he's evil, if he didn't, he's "an idiot".  If Sansa didn't know herself, would she be an idiot as well?  If Roose Bolton didn't even know, wouldn't he be an idiot too?  The show never demonstrates that Ramsay's psyhotic tendencies are known throughout Westeros, but not too much that it is unknown to Sansa.  Besides, Little Finger's motives / benefits in marrying Sansa to Ramsey aren't exact clear.  The only time Little Finger could be suspected of being evil instead of pragmatic was when she pushed Lysa out the Moon Door.  But even still, that may have saved Sansa in the future since Lysa was endangering Sansa.

Furthermore, Little Finger's actions haven't been entirely consistent with his self-serving nature.  Why save Sansa from King's Landing?  Why save Jon and Sansa vs the Boltons instead of letting the Boltons wipe out Jon and the Vale taking the North for themselves?  And what is his motive in creating faux discord between Sansa and Arya?  He should technically have the largest army stationed in the North.

All this faux drama seems to be a manufactured conflict by the show writers to kill him off.

 

He wants to marry Sansa.  He was hoping by marrying Sansa to Ramsay that the Bolton's would be excommunicated by Cersei and they would either get killed by Northern Lords or even Sansa killing Ramsay.  That way he could swoop in the hero and marry Sansa and he would have the north.  its a slap in the face to Ned, Cat, Robb and his unborn son and Feyne that LF is even in Winterfell.  I can't wait to see hopefully die tonight.  

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I like LF.  I always have in a "love to hate him" kinda way.   In looking at him through the view of the books and the show he comes off as a cerebral assassin with very limited weaknesses.

What he lacked in pedigree, riches and brawn; he more than made up for with his mind.

LF does have a weakness, . Catelyn Tully and by extension Sansa.   It is not shown the same way on the show as it is in the books.  Book wise, LF is recruiting Sansa as an active partner in his schemes, ,and she is receptive.  

I can not imagine Book LF essentially giving his leverage to rule the North away to anyone, especially the Boltons ( whom he has no love or respect for).  And especially Sansa.  She maybe the only thing Book LF wants more than the throne.

overall, the show tries to show him as an unstoppable mental force, but really misses the mark on LF's true complexity

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2 hours ago, Gala said:

Thank you clarifying, as if I haven't read the books and do not know the story.

In the eyes of dishonorable people he was a fool, I mean people without any kind of morality - Cersei, at that time Jaime, Tywin...Littlefinger is on top of them all, so yes, I was happy when despite their innocence Cersei's 2 kids died - she deserved that more than anyone and it all was her doing; Jaime, too, for that matter. Tywin should have died screaming, but he died shamefully, which is also a little bit satisfying. 

I will die of joy if or when Ned's kids kill LF. He is the ugliest person, even worse than obvious monsters like Ramsey or the Mountain. 

Wasn't LF the one who actually "helped" with the execution? I doubt that Joffrey made it up himself especially when everyone explained why they were going to sent Lord Stark to the Wall. Varys, Cersei, Sansa were in shock, while Payne and Slynt were ready and not surprised - it seems Tyrion has established that it was done on purpose, hasn't he?

"Not listening" and "should not trust anyone" - was just mocking and it wasn't even an advise. Anyway, LF lied about the dagger, for one. 

That is just a lame excuse - "you don't do that without getting dirty along the way". Oh, please, LF didn't do something right or great for humanity or people. He was climbing the ladder to whatever reasons...to screw over the lords, to gain money, to gain power... a little disgusting person. He knew from the very beginning that his way is a dirty way, because he was ugly inside from the very beginning. I don't even have pity for him because of a broken heart (although, Catlyne was never in relationship with him), because things like that heal- you go on and live your life. What kind of person you should be if you become something like that in the end because some girl didn't love you back and married someone else instead. It is a rhetorical question.

Whatever reasons people (I assume you are talking about readers/watchers) have to hate him, they are just. For me he represents the worst kind of people I had experience with.
 

LF worse than Ramsay and Ser Gregor. LULZ

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GRRM had this to say about Littlefinger's relationship with Sansa back in 2014:

 

Quote

 

It seems the relationship between Sansa and Petyr is a bit more complicated than it may have seemed at first. Creator George R.R. Martin explained Petyr’s feelings in a new video released by HBO.

"Petyr's feelings towards Sansa are not entirely paternal. They're partially paternal, because Littlefinger has very mixed feelings here. I mean, sometimes he sees Sansa and she's the daughter he never had. The daughter he might've had with Cat if he and Cat had been married as he dreamed when he was a small boy living in her father's castle and was so madly in love with her.

At other times, he detaches himself from that and he's less 'Petyr' and he's more 'Littlefinger' and she's just another piece in the game. And yet at other times, she's not Cat's daughter. She's like young Cat. She's his teenage fantasies returned again. And then, his feelings toward her are sexual and romantic."

 

 

He views Sansa as (1) the daughter he wanted to have, and believes he should have had, with Cat if only for his low-born status in a class-oriented society; (2) as his pupil, whom he is training to survive and become a skilled political operator like himself; (3) when he becomes more detached from his emotions, she is simply another chess piece for him to use for his own advantage; (4) she's all his wet-dreams/sex fantasies of a teenage Cat (but even better) returned again, only this time around (he thinks) under his control. He literally can't believe his good fortune to have Sansa under his wing, addressing him as "Uncle Baelish"; (5) he holds an eternal grudge because of his rejection by Cat and hatred for Ned Stark, which induces him to mess as much as possible with the Starks and attempt to cause discord among them.

In other words...it's complicated and he's conflicted, seemingly, in his motivations where Sansa Stark is concerned.

Obviously it is going to come back to bite him, his tutoring of Sansa in the machiavellian ways of Westerosi realpolitik and intrigue. She's going to be the death of him, likely, in collaboration with her siblings to whom her true loyalty lies. He's being played by her, the woman he moulded.

Sansa will have discovered from Bran the sheer extent to which Littlefinger was implicated, as the key plotter, in instigating the War of the Five Kings by brewing tension between the Starks and the Lannisters and then betraying her father Ned to death. And she'll have him killed, no doubt, for his crimes against her family.

 

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I have always "hated" LF, but also respected him for his ways of using people to gain the upper hand and advance his agenda. I do hope he is executed tonight at the hand of Arya and/or Sansa.

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7 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

 

So, LF gets blamed for Ned's death?  After warning him what he should do IN the capital to keep himself safe?  WTF?  No props to LF for this.   Ned was headstrong and refused to listen to LF's advice on how to conduct himself in the capital.  WHY would LF do this?  What reason would he have to warn Ned privately with the intention of hoping he would keep himself safe?  Ned Did Not Listen.  Ned Got Killed For Not Listening. 

 

 

Couple things Petyr had Jon Arryn killed by Lysa, who he instructed to message Cat and blame the Lannisters.  Petyr did this to cause strife between House Lannister and House Stark.  He tells Lysa to stay neutral and keep the Vale out of anything.  Petyr proceeds to ride this wave of Chaos he orchestrated to profit.  But yes in the books Petyr is on the level of Ramsay and the Mountain for various slaving and torture reasons he's basically mister sex crimes slaver.

So yeah the entire reason Eddard is in King's Landing and investigating the Lannisters is because of Petyr.

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I believe the reason Sansa would not be considered an idiot but LF is for the Ramsay thing is that LF is considered to be a spymaster, good with intrigue and politics, and know things about everyone. It was his scheme and he normally doesn't go into schemes half-cocked. So, Sansa, who has no or very few connections, is not a spymaster, and had yet to get really involved with politics is more likely not going to have any idea about Ramsay and have no way to acquire that idea

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6 hours ago, Gala said:

Thank you clarifying, as if I haven't read the books and do not know the story.

In the eyes of dishonorable people he was a fool, I mean people without any kind of morality - Cersei, at that time Jaime, Tywin...Littlefinger is on top of them all, so yes, I was happy when despite their innocence Cersei's 2 kids died - she deserved that more than anyone and it all was her doing; Jaime, too, for that matter. Tywin should have died screaming, but he died shamefully, which is also a little bit satisfying. 

I will die of joy if or when Ned's kids kill LF. He is the ugliest person, even worse than obvious monsters like Ramsey or the Mountain. 

Wasn't LF the one who actually "helped" with the execution? I doubt that Joffrey made it up himself especially when everyone explained why they were going to sent Lord Stark to the Wall. Varys, Cersei, Sansa were in shock, while Payne and Slynt were ready and not surprised - it seems Tyrion has established that it was done on purpose, hasn't he?

"Not listening" and "should not trust anyone" - was just mocking and it wasn't even an advise. Anyway, LF lied about the dagger, for one. 

That is just a lame excuse - "you don't do that without getting dirty along the way". Oh, please, LF didn't do something right or great for humanity or people. He was climbing the ladder to whatever reasons...to screw over the lords, to gain money, to gain power... a little disgusting person. He knew from the very beginning that his way is a dirty way, because he was ugly inside from the very beginning. I don't even have pity for him because of a broken heart (although, Catlyne was never in relationship with him), because things like that heal- you go on and live your life. What kind of person you should be if you become something like that in the end because some girl didn't love you back and married someone else instead. It is a rhetorical question.

Whatever reasons people (I assume you are talking about readers/watchers) have to hate him, they are just. For me he represents the worst kind of people I had experience with.
 

I couldn't agree more with everything you said. He is the character I hate the most, the most despicable of the whole series, and the worst kind of person one can possibly find. Ramsay, Joffrey, even Cercei, are just  psychopaths, they had/have to be taken down just in the same way you deal with a plague, you just have to destroy it for the sake of the common good. But Littlefinger is completely another thing, he is on a league of his own.

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5 hours ago, The Special Pug of Belfast said:

LF worse than Ramsay and Ser Gregor. LULZ

Delusion at its finest. Can't believe anyone actually thinks LF is worse than people like Joffrey, Euron, Ramsay, the Mountain, etc...

Hell, even Roose Bolton is worse than LF, in my view. Cersei definitely is. Tywin is also a pretty ruthless and brutal manipulator, who can at times be vicious or even cruel (forcing Tyrion to watch as his men raped Tysha, and then making Tyrion go last).

Lots of people are worse than Baelish, or at least give him a run for his money.

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5 hours ago, Krishtotter said:

GRRM had this to say about Littlefinger's relationship with Sansa back in 2014:

 

 

He views Sansa as (1) the daughter he wanted to have, and believes he should have had, with Cat if only for his low-born status in a class-oriented society; (2) as his pupil, whom he is training to survive and become a skilled political operator like himself; (3) when he becomes more detached from his emotions, she is simply another chess piece for him to use for his own advantage; (4) she's all his wet-dreams/sex fantasies of a teenage Cat (but even better) returned again, only this time around (he thinks) under his control. He literally can't believe his good fortune to have Sansa under his wing, addressing him as "Uncle Baelish"; (5) he holds an eternal grudge because of his rejection by Cat and hatred for Ned Stark, which induces him to mess as much as possible with the Starks and attempt to cause discord among them.

In other words...it's complicated and he's conflicted, seemingly, in his motivations where Sansa Stark is concerned.

Obviously it is going to come back to bite him, his tutoring of Sansa in the machiavellian ways of Westerosi realpolitik and intrigue. She's going to be the death of him, likely, in collaboration with her siblings to whom her true loyalty lies. He's being played by her, the woman he moulded.

Sansa will have discovered from Bran the sheer extent to which Littlefinger was implicated, as the key plotter, in instigating the War of the Five Kings by brewing tension between the Starks and the Lannisters and then betraying her father Ned to death. And she'll have him killed, no doubt, for his crimes against her family.

 

Wow. Someone who actually understands LF. I tip my hat to you, my friend, there are too few people like you.

And thank you for including that GRRM quote. I never forgot it, yet it is constantly disregarded by others. Like, the author literally explained all the various facets of LF's relationship with Sansa, and people are still debating whether he gave her to Ramsay in order to make her suffer. I mean, what the fuck ?

People are so incredibly bad at understanding his character, it's almost painful to witness.

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14 minutes ago, NickStark2494 said:

Delusion at its finest. Can't believe anyone actually thinks LF is worse than people like Joffrey, Euron, Ramsay, the Mountain, etc...

Hell, even Roose Bolton is worse than LF, in my view. Cersei definitely is. Tywin is also a pretty ruthless and brutal manipulator, who can at times be vicious or even cruel (forcing Tyrion to watch as his men raped Tysha, and then making Tyrion go last).

Lots of people are worse than Baelish, or at least give him a run for his money.

This isn't delusion it's people having short term memories and not being able to track causation.  Do you think because he's not out there raping and personally murdering smallfolk he's not directly responsible for the wot5k by killing Jon Arryn and pointing his finger(Lysa) at house Lannister?

Do you not understand the function of a pimp it's basically a slaver of women in the sex trade, gonna stick to show evidence but if say a certain Kingsguard wanted a young girl he'd go to Petyr Baelish while in King's Landing.

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18 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

This isn't delusion it's people having short term memories and not being able to track causation.  Do you think because he's not out there raping and personally murdering smallfolk he's not directly responsible for the wot5k by killing Jon Arryn and pointing his finger(Lysa) at house Lannister?

Do you not understand the function of a pimp it's basically a slaver of women in the sex trade, gonna stick to show evidence but if say a certain Kingsguard wanted a young girl he'd go to Petyr Baelish while in King's Landing.

Don't lecture me on causation, please. I've read the books several times, I understand Baelish's culpability in the war very well.

I think I understand pimps pretty well, thanks, given that I'm an attorney who has worked on protecting the rights of sex workers and regulation surrounding prostitution.

LF is evil. No question. But I'm going to go out on a limb, if you'll allow it, and say that being a pimp and manipulating events to start a war isn't quite as morally outrageous as feeding a baby to dogs, flaying people for fun, making your dogs rape an 11 year old girl, or removing someone's penis for the heck of it.

I understand that moral evaluations are subjective though, so you may disagree, but then that just becomes a philosophical debate about ethics, and what constitutes evil, and I really don't feel like getting into that right now.

Suffice it to say that based on my personal moral philosophy, LF is nowhere near as evil as the characters I mentioned (Euron, Ramsay, Joffrey, Gregor, etc...).

I have no difficulty understanding causation, and there's nothing wrong with my long term memory. Keep your condescension to yourself next time, thanks.

 

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6 minutes ago, NickStark2494 said:

Don't lecture me on causation, please. I've read the books several times, I understand Baelish's culpability in the war very well.

I think I understand pimps pretty well, thanks, given that I'm an attorney who has worked on protecting the rights of sex workers and regulation surrounding prostitution.

LF is evil. No question. But I'm going to go out on a limb, if you'll allow it, and say that being a pimp and manipulating events to start a war isn't quite as morally outrageous as feeding a baby to dogs, flaying people for fun, making your dogs rape an 11 year old girl, or removing someone's penis for the heck of it.

I understand that moral evaluations are subjective though, so you may disagree, but then that just becomes a philosophical debate about ethics, and what constitutes evil, and I really don't feel like getting into that right now.

Suffice it to say that based on my moral philosophy, LF is nowhere near as evil as the characters I mentioned (Euron, Ramsay, Joffrey, Gregor, etc...).

I have no difficulty understanding causation, and there's nothing wrong with my long term memory. Keep your condescension to yourself next time, thanks.

 

I didn't specify you but are you not one who started out speaking of peoples "Delusions"?  But even ignoring that if you work in law and you don't think someone who orchestrates and enables all of these crimes is just as bad I don't know what to tell you.  Because you mentioned raping an eleven year old girl with a dog and that one tracks back to Littlefinger as he had said girl trained in the sex trade after holding her prisoner from the slaughtered retainers of House Stark and delivers her to said dog rapist and flayer of people.

 

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How many people think LF will survive tonights episode? 

 

LF is the most dangerous character, not the most evil one. Yeah he does evil things, loves chaos, but he does not enjoy it because he loves suffering, no he likes it because he sees an opportunity in it.

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