How much does Lyanna Stark look like Margaery Tyrell?

[Angel Eyes]

Don't know what Renly was drinking when he said that Lyanna Stark and Margaery Tyrell looked similar. Lyanna had dark brown hair, long facial features and grey eyes. Margaery Tyrell has light brown, curly hair, and large brown eyes.

Lyanna Stark

Margaery Tyrell

Lyanna Stark 2

Margaery Tyrell 2

[The Wolves]

Renly just said that to think that Robert would be more attractive to Margaery. Lyanna and Margaery look nothing alike. 

[Angel Eyes]

3 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Renly just said that to think that Robert would be more attractive to Margaery. Lyanna and Margaery look nothing alike. 

For what purpose? To get Margaery into Robert's bed?

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

For what purpose? To get Margaery into Robert's bed?

Yes. Renly was working with the Tyrells to replace Cersei and the Lannisters. 

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Yes. Renly was working with the Tyrells to replace Cersei and the Lannisters. 

So how well would that go with Tywin? Would the rains sweep over Storm's End, with no one left to hear?

[Livesundersink]

6 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So how well would that go with Tywin? Would the rains sweep over Storm's End, with no one left to hear?

Not well, I can imagine, however it has been noted by many characters that Renly was far from the political mastermind he believed himself to be and Loras was preying on his father's ambitions of wanting the best for Margeary. In the end I believe she will end up paying the price for their scheming.

[TMIFairy]

4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

1 - So how well would that go with Tywin?

2 - Would the rains sweep over Storm's End, with no one left to hear?

1 - not a chance in the Seven Hells of Robert putting Cersei aside. This was a hare brained scheme of two fluff heads - Renly and Loras. Robert had SOME common sense, Jon Arryn would sit on Robert waiting for the idea to put Cersei aside to pass, etc.

2 - not a chance for this either. Tywin is not the ruler of Westeros. He could exterminate the Reynes as these were his father's rebellious bannermen. He cannot do same to another Great House. Unless he is Hand of the KIng/Lord Regent and somehow persuades other Great Lords to go along with such an idea. Not possible in a Seven Kingdoms if it is to remain a Seven Kingdoms.

If - a very big if - Robert set Cersei aside - then all Tywin could really do is call in the loans to the Crown (with Mace paying that debt, or maybe Littlefinger arranges financing, or a mix of both). If Tywin rebels over this outrageous insult it would the Rains of Casterly Rock for him.

The "setting aside" would also effectively trim the Seven (Nine) Kingdoms down to three or four. Only the Reach, Stormlands and Crownlands would be on the Crown's side. All the other Realms would pay only lip service to KL. Dorne would be happy over Tywin and Houe Lannister being snubbed, of course, but their already unimpressive opinion of Robert would slip even lower, if that were possible.

For the "putting aside" to be even possible - and in such a case it would work, and even without the PR disaster - would be for the twincest to become known.

Then all Tywin could do is grind his teeth.

But no reveal of the disgusting Cersei-Jaime relationship = no putting aside ever. Margaery for Cersei = pillow talk of the two fluffheads basking in the afterglow of their own deviant coupling.

 

[Kytheros]

1 minute ago, TMIFairy said:

1 - not a chance in the Seven Hells of Robert putting Cersei aside. This was a hare brained scheme of two fluff heads - Renly and Loras. Robert had SOME common sense, Jon Arryn would sit on Robert waiting for the idea to put Cersei aside to pass, etc.

2 - not a chance for this either. Tywin is not the ruler of Westeros. He could exterminate the Reynes as these were his father's rebellious bannermen. He cannot do same to another Great House. Unless he is Hand of the KIng/Lord Regent and somehow persuades other Great Lords to go along with such an idea. Not possible in a Seven Kingdoms.

If - a very big if - Robert set Cersei aside - then all Tywin could really do is call in the loans to the Crown (with Mace paying that debt, or maybe Littlefinger arranges financing, or a mix of both). If Tywin rebels over this outrageous insult it would the Rains of Casterly Rock for him.

The "setting aside" would also effectively trim the Seven (Nine) Kingdoms down to three or four. Only the Reach, Stormlands and Crownlands would be on the Crown's side. All the other Realms would pay only lip service to KL. Dorne would be happy over Tywin and Houe Lannister being snubbed, of course, but their already unimpressive opinion of Robert would slip even lower, if that were possible.

For the "putting aside" to be even possible - and in such a case it would work, and even without the PR disaster - would be for the twincest to become known.

Then all Tywin could do is grind his teeth.

But no reveal of the disgusting Cersei-Jaime relationship = no putting aside ever. Margaery for Cersei = pillow talk of the two fluffheads basking in the afterglow of their own deviant coupling.

 

It wouldn't necessarily require the twincest to be known - just that Cersei's children weren't Robert's, whoever the actual father might be, that would be sufficient grounds to end the marriage to Cersei, arguably enough for her head. Twincest would be grounds to kill Cersei and Jaime, and possibly break House Lannister itself.

It's also possible that if they got Robert interested in Margaery, the Tyrells might arrange for a quiet little discrete assassination of Cersei.

 

Also, it's Robert ... PR and politics aren't exactly a strong suit.

[devilish]

I think that rumours about Joffrey's and co parentage were slowly but surely creeping in KL and there was a slow buildup going on for it. Surely the lion wouldn't like the end result of that. However if Robert married Margaery then at least 5 (Riverlands, Reach, North, Vale, Stormlands) of the 7 kingdoms would side with the crownlands on it which could easily overwhelm the Westerlands to submission. Its a shame that Ned gatecrashed everything

The devil is in the detail though. Unless Cersei was caught in the act, then there's no 100% proof of what she did. That meant a trial which will end up in a trial by combat. In such circumstances whom on earth could take Jamie or the Mountain down?

[TMIFairy]

24 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

It wouldn't necessarily require the twincest to be known - just that Cersei's children weren't Robert's, whoever the actual father might be, that would be sufficient grounds to end the marriage to Cersei, arguably enough for her head. Twincest would be grounds to kill Cersei and Jaime, and possibly break House Lannister itself.

True. I went for the "nuclear option" here

You are correct - adultery is enough.

[Walda]

She looks as much like Lyanna as Jayne Poole looked like Arya. (Interesting the parallels in these cases)

Renly had only heard of Lyanna. There is a very slim outside chance that he might have seen her statue in the crypts of Winterfell, when he was just a boy. There is a better probability (but I wouldn't think better than evens) that he has seen a portrait of Lyanna. Robert might have kept such a memento: a miniature on his person, or a larger portrait at Storms End (or sent to Storm's End by the Red Keep's household staff when Cersei moved in.)

Although, nowhere in Planetos seems to have portrait painters or portraits - apart from Renly's miniature, we see tapestries, or sculptures rather than paintings, and no portraits. Even the depictions of the gods in the septs are carvings and sculptures. The closest we get to paintings are the charcoal sketches at the sept outside Bitterbridge. Westeros has a surfeit of singers, but no artists - except that Margaery has had a miniature taken, and miniatures are the stock in trade of faster, more affordable artists, so clearly there must be at least one jobbing portraitist, somewhere in the south.

The miniature Renly showed Eddard was probably not an exact likeness of Margaery either. In real life, realism wasn't all that until the camera came. Just Google images of George Eliot, and you can see for yourself how portraiture changed when the daguerreotype, and then the photograph, were developed. When George Eliot was young, most artists were innocent of such threats to their trade. You can see later portraitists walking back the allowances they had made for vanity, when they realise that photographs which show their subject warts and all were going to be preferred to the most elegant asthetic they could contrive. 

Or you could look at the pictures of John Wollaston. He worked in the colony of Virginia and did a portrait of Martha Washington as a girl. At that time, Virginia was a bit of a backwater to the art world, and only the wealthiest plantation owners could afford anything so high-falutin' as a portrait. So of course the Curtises got one when John Wollaston came to town. Like at least half the families of Virginia in their income bracket.

If you look at his body of work, Wollaston has a standard 'Young woman standing in a blue satin rococo dress'/more mature woman seated in gold satin rococo dress' technique where everything up to the necklace is pre-done, leaving only a space for the face is of the sitter. Well, sort of. Quite frankly, the faces of his sitters seem to have blended, so they all end up looking a bit like Craster's wives and daughters.

I'm not sure the artist could tell his Martha Dandridge Curtis from his Mary Willing Bird or Mary Ross Beale, let alone anyone else. I think he must have relied on the tyranny of distance to ensure that he was the only artist his patrons had the opportunity to meet, and that his patrons lived far enough apart to ensure they never got to meet each other and notice the verisimilitude of their portraits, at least, not before he was paid for them. 

This miniature reminds me of the famous ones Hans Holbein the Younger, that singular portraitist of the sixteenth century, who had a reputation for making exact  likenesses, did of Henry VIII's potential fourth wives. Henry had a set against Spanish ladies because of Catherine of Aragon, so the French monarch's marriageable relatives had been his first choice. But Henry was concerned about getting a woman he found attractive, and the King of France or his envoys were offended by the proposal that they gather the girls all together like so many pieces of fruit in the marketplace, so he could chose the least blemished one.

So the German protestant states got a look in. Holbien was sent out to do portraits of the girls the king found suitable matches. While Holbien's portraits tend to look almost as real as a photograph (as far as we can tell), he knew about metaphor and illusion, too. He was very particular about his sitters' pose, the props that surrounded them, their dress.

The portrait of sixteen-year-old recently widowed Christina of Denmark Duchess of Milan, has a lot of character, and it had the monarch drooling. Her mother claimed she had fallen in love with her father at the sight of a portrait of him, but Christina proved to be not so easily impressed.  She told his envoys that she would marry Henry 'if I had two heads' and promptly announced her engagement to Francis, heir to the Duchy of Lorraine.

Marie de Guise was then applied to, (Henry already knew her), but on being told that the king had said he was a big man, and needed a big wife, replied 'I may be a big woman, but I have a little neck.' and very shortly after married King James V of Scotland. 

In that year, Holbein also did a portrait of Elizabeth Grey, who was already known to Henry -she became the wife of the British Lord Chancellor at Henry's request, and bore him a daughter in 1540. Holbein also did a portrait of Anne Basset, and one of Amelia of Cleves. 

But it is the portrait of Anne of Cleves that became infamous, because Henry VIII supposedly claimed it caused him to put aside certain reservations he had felt when Thomas Cromwell praised the beauty and purity of this maiden who was such a brilliant match politically.

As soon as Henry laid eyes on her actual person, he was trying to get the marriage annulled, hinting publicly that she was too ugly for him to consummate, and not a virgin anyway, but being very pleasant to her face. In a few months they settled that the obstacle to their marriage and cause of the annulment was her former engagement to Francis of the Duchy of Lorraine, her fault.

Anne managed to stay far enough from the Royal household to keep her head, but she remained in England, under Henry's influence and control, rather than going home. She became adept at forming useful and friendly relationships with his daughters and himself, and not even Catherine Parr did better out of him, or lived longer. So, apart from a humiliating ex-husband who denied he ever married her, but wouldn't give her the rights and freedoms of an unmarried woman, Anne did all right.

Looking at the Holbein portrait, she doesn't look especially beautiful. She has a long face and a bulbous nose, and half closed eyes. Unlike the portrait of cheeky Christina, Anne is bedecked by jewels and fine clothes. The emphasis Holbein places on these, and the curiously featureless, sleepy look on her face make it clear that he was painting a plain girl trying to look her best, I think.

In real life, the difference that portrait really made is very much contestable.In Game of Thrones, I think it is also unlikely that the portrait would make any difference, even if it had been a dead ringer for Lyanna, even if Margaery had been.

Robert was not in the same situation as Henry VIII, anyway. He had his heir and spare, both of whom were strong and had outlived the diseases of childhood well thus far. His wife, however little he liked it, was still alive, available, fertile. More to the point, she was a Lannister.

As a military man, Robert would have valued his alliance with Lord Tywin more highly than any a marriage to Margaery Tyrell would bring him. It seems to me that the Tyrells were always inclined to secretly plot with people who are going to overthrow the incumbent, people like Renly, or Rhaegar, interested in making a show of supporting the incumbent King loyally and well, but not in going down with him.

Renly attaches himself to the Tyrells as the friend of the beautiful Loras. Renly is refined and young, urbane and attractive himself. I'm not sure Margaery would have been as well satisfied to be Robert's queen, and of course, it would have been far less satisfactory for Loras, acting as his sister's protector. Mace I'm not sure - he seems willing enough to marry Margaery off to anyone who happens to be King, as long as it benefits Highgarden.

[LynnS]

Renley's crown is also interesting:

 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn II

In their midst, watching and laughing with his young queen by his side, sat a ghost in a golden crown.

Small wonder the lords gather around him with such fervor, she thought, he is Robert come again. Renly was handsome as Robert had been handsome; long of limb and broad of shoulder, with the same coal-black hair, fine and straight, the same deep blue eyes, the same easy smile. The slender circlet around his brows seemed to suit him well. It was soft gold, a ring of roses exquisitely wrought; at the front lifted a stag's head of dark green jade, adorned with golden eyes and golden antlers

 

 

 

[TMIFairy]

32 minutes ago, Walda said:

Although, nowhere in Planetos seems to have portrait painters or portraits ...

Thank you for broadening my knowledge about portraits and 16th century Europe!

The dearth of portraits versus abundance of sculptures made me think that the Sevener creed might have the "reverse" of Orthodox Christianity, i.e. it is OK with 3D but not 2D art.

Orthodox Christianity has - even reveres - painted icons but abhors scultptures, a legacy of its iconoclastic past. At a certain point, before the iconodules gained ascendency, even crosses were anathema IIRC ...

 

 

 

[LynnS]

20 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

For what purpose? To get Margaery into Robert's bed?

The simple explanation is that Renly is gay and creating a mythos about himself and Margary as well as something that links him to Robert as his successor.  Something for the singers in other words.  There are very few portraits of anyone in Westeros.  So unless, someone knew Lyanna personally, it's not likely that many would know what she looked like.  Even Robert complains that her statue in the crypts doesn't do her justice.

[Angel Eyes]

42 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The simple explanation is that Renly is gay and creating a mythos about himself and Margary as well as something that links him to Robert as his successor.  Something for the singers in other words.  There are very few portraits of anyone in Westeros.  So unless, someone knew Lyanna personally, it's not likely that many would know what she looked like.  Even Robert complains that her statue in the crypts doesn't do her justice.

Ned would know.

[essosi watch]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

...So unless, someone knew Lyanna personally, it's not likely that many would know what she looked like.  Even Robert complains that her statue in the crypts doesn't do her justice.

Exactly this. I tend to think that in these books, every sentence has its purpose. Renly's  seemingly pointless plot is there bc reader has to realize that someone from the Reach remembers well what Lyanna looked like, and that they not only saw her once but this person had to be in contact with her at least for some time and they were old enough at the time to remember her.

[LynnS]

29 minutes ago, essosi watch said:

Exactly this. I tend to think that in these books, every sentence has its purpose. Renly's  seemingly pointless plot is there bc reader has to realize that someone from the Reach remembers well what Lyanna looked like, and that they not only saw her once but this person had to be in contact with her at least for some time and they were old enough at the time to remember her.

I agree.  The imagery of the golden rose is everywhere, not coincidently in Renly's crown which certainly does echo Lyanna's crown and her fondness for 'flowers'.  

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XI

"Lord Eddard!" The shout came from the west side of the hall as a handsome stripling of a boy strode forth boldly. Out of his armor, Ser Loras Tyrell looked even younger than his sixteen years. He wore pale blue silk, his belt a linked chain of golden roses, the sigil of his House. "I beg you the honor of acting in your place. Give this task to me, my lord, and I swear I shall not fail you.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. "The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna."

Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. "I do not know which of you I pity most."

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"The winters are hard," Ned admitted. "But the Starks will endure. We always have."

"You need to come south," Robert told him. "You need a taste of summer before it flees. In Highgarden there are fields of golden roses that stretch away as far as the eye can see.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion VIII

In the dawn light, the army of Lord Tywin Lannister unfolded like an iron rose, thorns gleaming.

Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark

 

I have to wonder about Highgarden and House Tyrell and perhaps the Queen of Thorns and what she might know about Lyanna.

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

None

“No,” Ned had told him, bemused. Could it be that Lord Renly, who looked so like a young Robert, had conceived a passion for a girl he fancied to be a young Lyanna? That struck him as more than passing queer.”

 

[mormont]

On 27/08/2017 at 7:18 AM, TMIFairy said:

Robert had SOME common sense

Citation needed.

Honestly, what Renly had in mind seems to have been a civil war. His calculations were probably that the Lannisters would stand alone, or almost so. That makes some sense: Ned famously distrusted them and would have stood with Robert, Renly himself brings the Stormlands and Margaery the Reach, Stannis would do his duty to his king and brother, Hoster has marriage ties to the Crown. Dorne and the Iron Islands would likely sit the whole thing out: Dorne because they hated both Tywin and Robert, the Iron Islands because their strength would make little difference. The Eyrie is a bit of a wild card but on the information Renly had, would most likely come in on Robert's side or sit out. The West against Robert, Renly, Stannis, Ned, Hoster, and Mace should have been doomed.

Of course there are the debts. But winning a war against your creditors does wonders for your balance sheet.

[TMIFairy]

37 minutes ago, mormont said:

Citation needed.

LOL!

As to your geopolitical analysis - I fully concur.

Due to his wonderful PR - "the lions do not care for the bleating of sheep" etc. - Tywin would be alone.

On one hand Great Lords would be rubbing their hands in glee at Tywin's cummuppence - on the other hand, however, they would be worried about Robert setting aside his wife.

Bad precedent.

The same could happen to their daughter/granddaughter ... it were the fears of "the same thing happening to them" - i.e. being murdered without just trial (nor cause) - that had lords rebel against Aerys.

With the King "breaking the rules again" the Seven Kingdoms are shaken for the second time inside (half) a generation. As there are no dragons to bring dissenters in line I see the individual Kingdoms drifting more and more apart.

So, although nobody would lift a pinky to help Tywin "avenge his daughter's honour" the Great Lords would NOT be enthusiastic supporters of Cersei being put aside.

The Seven Kingdoms would hang on the Axis of Stormlands, Reach, Crownlands. Three out of nine - not that impressive.