Daemon rebelling for Daenerys' love...

[Angel Eyes]

Makes no sense. If he loved her, why did he wait nine years after her marriage and after his own, to rebel?

[Lord Varys]

Exactly. That's why this whole thing was retconned to be a rumor/story rather than the truth. I'm sort of inclined to believe that George thought it was the truth back when he was writing TSS. Back then the time line might not yet have been as fixed as it is today, especially not where the birth dates of Daemon and Daenerys are concerned (or the Maron-Daenerys marriage).

George could have made the whole thing more of a romance if Rohanne of Tyrosh had died in childbirth before giving Daemon at least nine children. The man could have turned from his wife to Daenerys in the years leading up to the Blackfyre Rebellion, really hoping to marry her after his wife's death. And he could have put the Maron-Daenerys wedding after the Redgrass Field.

But as things stand now the whole story is most likely nothing but a rumor - Daemon and Daenerys may have felt attracted to each other, but that would have been it.

[Lost Melnibonean]

From The Targaryen Kimgs, TWOIAF...

Quote

It has been said in the years after Daemon Blackfyre proved a traitor that his hatred of Daeron began to grow early. It was Aegon’s desire—not Daemon’s—that he be wed to Rohanne of Tyrosh. Instead, Daemon had developed a passion for Daeron’s sister, young Princess Daenerys. Only two years younger than Daemon, the princess supposedly loved the bastard prince in turn, if the singers can be believed, but neither Aegon IV nor Daeron II were willing to let such feelings rule in matters of state. Aegon saw more profit in a tie to Tyrosh, perhaps because its fleet would be of use if he made another attempt to conquer Dorne.

This seems plausible enough, but a different tale claims that Daemon was not so much opposed to wedding Rohanne of Tyrosh as he was convinced that he could follow in the footsteps of Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel and have more than one bride. Aegon might even have promised to indulge him in this (some of Blackfyre’s partisans later claimed this was the case) but Daeron was of a different mind entirely. Not only did Daeron refuse to permit his brother more than one wife, but he also gave Daenerys’s hand to Maron Martell, as part of the bargain to finally unite the Seven Kingdoms with Dorne.

I suspect the second paragraph is closer to the truth. There certainly could have been a mutual attraction, but the war was waged for other reasons, I think. 

[Lord Varys]

13 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

From The Targaryen Kimgs, TWOIAF...

I suspect the second paragraph is closer to the truth. There certainly could have been a mutual attraction, but the war was waged for other reasons, I think. 

I actually find that whole thing makes even less sense - I mean, how likely is it that the ailing Aegon IV, bound to his bed, cared to indulge his 14-year-old bastard - who still would have been a bastard at this time - in the madness of having two wives - and only the second one a royal princess - at this time?

And how likely is it that Daemon was already that obsessed with an 11-12-year-old girl in 184 AC when his royal father was dying? 

If there was something to the Daemon-Daenerys thing it would have come later one - when Daenerys flowered and Daemon reached the heights of adolescence. The Baelor-Daemon clash during Daenerys' wedding tourney could be a symptom of his later obsession. One can see him trying to behave like Ser Criston Cole during Rhaenyra's wedding tourney - and failing because Baelor Breakspear was the better lance.

I could see Aegon jokingly promising Daemon the hand of his daughter - but that would have been just that - a joke. And a seed to put Daemon against Daeron because he would have know that his son and heir could never actually go through with that promise when the time came to arrange a marriage for Daenerys.

[Lion of the West]

On 2017-08-26 at 11:26 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Makes no sense. If he loved her, why did he wait nine years after her marriage and after his own, to rebel?

Most likley as Lord Varys suggested it was because the timelines were had been changed between texts being published or more likely because it was only a rumor. If it was true, then I would suspect that Daemon marinaded in his grudges with Daeron for many years before finally falling over the line and deciding to rebel.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I actually find that whole thing makes even less sense - I mean, how likely is it that the ailing Aegon IV, bound to his bed, cared to indulge his 14-year-old bastard - who still would have been a bastard at this time - in the madness of having two wives - and only the second one a royal princess - at this time?

And how likely is it that Daemon was already that obsessed with an 11-12-year-old girl in 184 AC when his royal father was dying? 

If there was something to the Daemon-Daenerys thing it would have come later one - when Daenerys flowered and Daemon reached the heights of adolescence. The Baelor-Daemon clash during Daenerys' wedding tourney could be a symptom of his later obsession. One can see him trying to behave like Ser Criston Cole during Rhaenyra's wedding tourney - and failing because Baelor Breakspear was the better lance.

I could see Aegon jokingly promising Daemon the hand of his daughter - but that would have been just that - a joke. And a seed to put Daemon against Daeron because he would have know that his son and heir could never actually go through with that promise when the time came to arrange a marriage for Daenerys.

Well, I am sure you know what really happened. I expect that information was just inserted to fill up a page. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Well, I am sure you know what really happened. I expect that information was just inserted to fill up a page. 

Well, if you believe that the great romances of the world take place when your are 11-14 years old I can't help you. Not to mention that it is not very convincing that a dude who isn't married yet is dreaming to have two wives. I mean, Daemon was just betrothed to Rohanne of Tyrosh during the reign of his royal father.

Why on earth should he want to have two wives if he could just as well break his betrothal and not marry the Tyroshi chick? Or would you rather have two wives than just divorce or cancel the marriage in case of the woman you don't want?

[Lost Melnibonean]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, if you believe that the great romances of the world take place when your are 11-14 years old I can't help you. Not to mention that it is not very convincing that a dude who isn't married yet is dreaming to have two wives. I mean, Daemon was just betrothed to Rohanne of Tyrosh during the reign of his royal father.

Why on earth should he want to have two wives if he could just as well break his betrothal and not marry the Tyroshi chick? Or would you rather have two wives than just divorce or cancel the marriage in case of the woman you don't want?

@Lord Varys, Unlike Sheldon Cooper, at 14, most boys develop quite passionate desire for girls. Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet--arguably, one of the greatest love stories ever composed--involved characters of similar ages, although Romeo was likely a couple of years older, but close enough to make no difference. Moreover, we are dealing with a high fantasy in which boys become men at 16, and women are fit to be wedded and bedded upon their... um... flowering. (I recall marching through hills of southwestern Honduras in the mid 1980s, and stopping in a school house where the teacher told me that the boys were given a machete at 12, and no longer expected to attend classes.) Daenerys loved Drogo and feels a passion for Daario. How old was she when she fell in love on the Dothraki Sea? Robb was but a year or two older when he broke a sacred betrothal contract and risked his world for a passionate love. Most people, especially young people, do very illogical things for love. 

If you don't recognize that, I can help you: Read more poetry. 

However, I am not suggesting that Daemon attempted to usurp his true born brother's throne because he loved Daenerys. I think there is enough information to assume that Daemon had an attraction to Daenerys, and that it might have been reciprocated when they were young. It might even have been more than that, but whether it was or not doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. 

What's more important is what the author is telling us... that Aegon didn't mind wedding Rohanne of Tyrosh, in part, because Aegon IV suggested to him that he might take two brides as did the Targaryens of old. And the text clearly implies that this was the case since we are told that Daeron refused to allow Daemon to take a second wife, presumably Daenerys, who was wed to the Prince of Dorne within a couple of years. Since Daemon did not rebel until a decade later, we know that this was not the sole reason, and it probably wasn't even a primary reason, but perhaps it was another brick in the wall, so to speak. 

As to weather or not there were romantic feelings between young Daemon and young Daenerys, I will rely on what the George himself has said...

Quote

Q: Could you tell us something of what happened in the relationship between the first Daenerys, Daemon Blackfyre, and the prince of Dorne?

A: Despite Daemon and Daenerys being in love, her brother the king, Daeron the Good, was more concerned with matters of state than matters of love. ...

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2012/07/

[Lord Varys]

Here are the relevant quotes:

Quote

You can know a man by his friends, Egg. Daeron surrounded himself with maesters, septons, and singers. Always there were women whispering in his ear, and his court was full of Dornishmen. How not, when he had taken a Dornishwoman into his bed and sold his own sweet sister to the Prince of Dorne, though it was Daemon that she loved? Daeron bore the same name as the Young Dragon, but when his Dornish wife gave him a son he named the child Baelor, after the feeblest king who ever sat the Iron Throne.

Quote

It has been said in the years after Daemon Blackfyre proved a traitor that his hatred of Daeron began to grow early. It was Aegon’s desire—not Daemon’s—that he be wed to Rohanne of Tyrosh. Instead, Daemon had developed a passion for Daeron’s sister, young Princess Daenerys. Only two years younger than Daemon, the princess supposedly loved the bastard prince in turn, if the singers can be believed, but neither Aegon IV nor Daeron II were willing to let such feelings rule in matters of state. Aegon saw more profit in a tie to Tyrosh, perhaps because its fleet would be of use if he made another attempt to conquer Dorne.
This seems plausible enough, but a different tale claims that Daemon was not so much opposed to wedding Rohanne of Tyrosh as he was convinced that he could follow in the footsteps of Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel and have more than one bride. Aegon might even have promised to indulge him in this (some of Blackfyre’s partisans later claimed this was the case) but Daeron was of a different mind entirely. Not only did Daeron refuse to permit his brother more than one wife, but he also gave Daenerys’s hand to Maron Martell, as part of the bargain to finally unite the Seven Kingdoms with Dorne.
Whether Daenerys loved Daemon, as those who rose for the Black Dragon later claimed, who could say? In the years afterward, Daenerys was never aught but a loyal wife to Prince Maron, and if she mourned Daemon Blackfyre, she left no record of it.

Make of that what you will. But it is quite clear that it is not confirmed that Aegon IV actually gave his bastard permission to have more than one wife, one of them his own trueborn daughter. What's confirmed is that Aegon IV did not, in fact, promise Daemon the hand of Daenerys. Instead he arranged his betrothal to Rohanne of Tyrosh.

Everything else is just speculation and presented as such in the book. I'm sure Daemon had the ego to think he could have two wives - especially after his royal father legitimized him - just as I'm sure that Aegon liked to mess with Daemon's head as much as he did with everyone else's. But as long as we don't have any proof that Aegon IV actually gave Daemon permission to take two wives this is all just (in-universe) speculation.

Ser Eustace Osgrey doesn't even claim Daemon Blackfyre loved Princess Daenerys - he just tells us that Daenerys loved Daemon Blackfyre. Not whether the man returned those feelings. He could have, but he could just as well have just wanted her hand to get closer to the throne.

[Lost Melnibonean]

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Here are the relevant quotes:

Make of that what you will. But it is quite clear that it is not confirmed that Aegon IV actually gave his bastard permission to have more than one wife, one of them his own trueborn daughter. What's confirmed is that Aegon IV did not, in fact, promise Daemon the hand of Daenerys. Instead he arranged his betrothal to Rohanne of Tyrosh.

Everything else is just speculation and presented as such in the book. I'm sure Daemon had the ego to think he could have two wives - especially after his royal father legitimized him - just as I'm sure that Aegon liked to mess with Daemon's head as much as he did with everyone else's. But as long as we don't have any proof that Aegon IV actually gave Daemon permission to take two wives this is all just (in-universe) speculation.

Ser Eustace Osgrey doesn't even claim Daemon Blackfyre loved Princess Daenerys - he just tells us that Daenerys loved Daemon Blackfyre. Not whether the man returned those feelings. He could have, but he could just as well have just wanted her hand to get closer to the throne.

It is also quite clear that Daeron refused to permit Daemon more than one wife. For whose hand do you suppose Daemon asked? 

[Lord Varys]

28 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

It is also quite clear that Daeron refused to permit Daemon more than one wife. For whose hand do you suppose Daemon asked? 

It is not confirmed that Daemon ever actually asked Aegon IV or Daeron II for the hand of Daenerys or any other woman, is it? Those are all rumors/speculation.

[Lost Melnibonean]

35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is not confirmed that Daemon ever actually asked Aegon IV or Daeron II for the hand of Daenerys or any other woman, is it? Those are all rumors/speculation.

To make your point that Aegon IV might not have allowed Daemon to believe that he could take a second wife you emphasized the might and the claimed written into the text. Well, there is no such such qualifier in the bit about Daeron refusing to permit his brother more than one wife. Unless, of course, you can have your cake and eat it too, @Lord Varys. 

[Lord Varys]

46 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

To make your point that Aegon IV might not have allowed Daemon to believe that he could take a second wife you emphasized the might and the claimed written into the text. Well, there is no such such qualifier in the bit about Daeron refusing to permit his brother more than one wife. Unless, of course, you can have your cake and eat it too, @Lord Varys. 

Sure, I can. We don't know whether that prohibition was just issued in a general sense or directly connected to Daemon asking for Daenerys' hand, or do we? Since we don't know that Daemon ever formally asked for her hand there is no reason to believe that he was forbidden two wives in connection to Daenerys.

Aegon IV surely could have indulged his bastard in the abstract idea of having two or even more wives, and then Daemon could have once - perhaps half in jest - have asked his royal brother whether it was conceivable that he, Daemon Blackfyre, could have two wives like Aegon the Conqueror, since he was also bearing the man's sword.

And then he would have been rebuked, most likely rather harshly. We don't have to assume he was asking the king to have two wives and asking for Daenerys' hand at the same time.

Thinking about that - the idea of Daemon Blackfyre sort of overcompensating for his bastard birth by trying to emulate the Conqueror (or how he saw him) as best as he could actually makes a lot sense. And wishing to have two wives could certainly have been part of that. It might even have been what made him interested in Daenerys in the first place - she was, after all, his half-sister.

[Ellenandrew]

I don't think love had anything to do with the rebellion. I don't have any proof for this theory, so please be kind. It's just what I think happened.

After Aegon died, Daeron became king and Daemon and Bittersteel were not happy, even though everyone else seemed to be. Daemon wanted the throne really bad and Bittersteel was ...well, bitter. After noticing that no one gave a shit about Daeron's suspected illegitimacy, it appears that Daemon was ready to let things be. Bittersteel was the one nagging him about it and finally persuaded him. Now "I should be king because I want to" would make them usurpers so they tried to give their rebellion a nobler purpose. Maybe Daemon and Daenerys had some fun when they were younger and people knew that they liked each other, so they thought to use the story as a PR move to get people on their side. Daemon would become the noble, romantic knight, not an ambitious bastard. 

Daenerys is never mentioned to show any support, love or grief for Daemon, because it simply wasn't like that and eventually I think she was happy to stay in Dorne with her husband and children, after explaining to them that the whole story is just that, a story. Also, if Daemon really didn't like his wife, why did he father like a dozen children with her? An earlier ancestor, Daemon, the rogue prince, really disliked his lady from the Vale and did his best to avoid her. He wasn't there all day impregnating her like crazy just as she finished pushing one baby out 

[The hairy bear]

I agree that the whole dynamics of the incorporation of Dorne into the realm and the start of the Blackfyre Rebellion have been retconned many times to fit the timeline. That said, George said this as late as 2011 (Emphasis mine):

Despite Daemon and Daenerys being in love, her brother the king, Daeron the Good, was more concerned with matters of state than matters of love. There had been many years of fighting with Dorne, and failure to bring them into the Seven Kingdoms while not being able to keep them from harassing the Seven Kingdoms. So he realized that where violence failed, perhaps marriage could bring an end to hostilities and so he uses his sister to make an alliance with the prince of Dorne. It's a political marriage, pure and simple, a convenient marriage to guarantee a union between Dorne and the Seven Kingdoms. And also, he prefers to give his sister to the prince of Dorne over a bastard bother with whom he'd already had a few clashes and whom too many people were looking one as a legitimate claimant to the throne or rightful king. That was the straw that broke the camel's back, and helps lead to Daemon becoming the first Blackfyre Pretender.

I imagine that they were childhood friends, and perhaps they even dreamed of marrying (being both outsiders in the court, the bastard and the girl against the four sons of Daeron). The main problem, I think, it's not that they were not married to each other, but that Daenerys was married to a Dornishmen.

There seems to be a great deal of racist/anti-Dornish sentiment in the Blackfyre camp since the beginning. Danaerys, as a Targaryen, should have been married to another Targaryen. I think that if she had been married to any of Daeron's sons, there wouldn't have been that much complain. Daemon might have even swallowed her to be married to a powerful Andal lord. But giving her to a Dornishman could be perceived as an insult to her.

Perhaps even Daenaerys tried everything she could to avoid the marriage. I could see her acting as Honoria did with Attila (coincidentally, Atilla was already married and with children when Honoria offered herself to him). I'm sure Daenaerys asked Daemon to help her avoid the marriage, appealing to their love.

 

[Lord Varys]

13 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Despite Daemon and Daenerys being in love, her brother the king, Daeron the Good, was more concerned with matters of state than matters of love. There had been many years of fighting with Dorne, and failure to bring them into the Seven Kingdoms while not being able to keep them from harassing the Seven Kingdoms. So he realized that where violence failed, perhaps marriage could bring an end to hostilities and so he uses his sister to make an alliance with the prince of Dorne. It's a political marriage, pure and simple, a convenient marriage to guarantee a union between Dorne and the Seven Kingdoms. And also, he prefers to give his sister to the prince of Dorne over a bastard bother with whom he'd already had a few clashes and whom too many people were looking one as a legitimate claimant to the throne or rightful king. That was the straw that broke the camel's back, and helps lead to Daemon becoming the first Blackfyre Pretender.

As the time line now stands, some of that has overturned. Not the basics, perhaps, but 'the straw that broke the camel's back' for sure. It simply no longer fits.

However, the love story could still work.

13 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I imagine that they were childhood friends, and perhaps they even dreamed of marrying (being both outsiders in the court, the bastard and the girl against the four sons of Daeron). The main problem, I think, it's not that they were not married to each other, but that Daenerys was married to a Dornishmen.

I'd be very surprised if Daemon and Daenerys grew up together. For one, she was a royal princess and the fatherless bastard of a royal princess up until the age of twelve (when Daenerys was about ten). Little princesses most likely don't play or enjoy the company of bastards. They would have seen each other court, but most of the time from afar. Especially since Daenerys most likely was mostly in the care of her mother, Queen Naerys, who most likely didn't exactly shower Daemon Waters with favors or recognition.

Now, after Daemon was acknowledged by Aegon IV and given Blackfyre he would have gained a lot of prestige and a more prestigious place at court. But Daenerys was still only 10-12 in the last two years of the reign of her father. Scarcely the time for a deep love story.

And then in 184 AC, shortly after Aegon's death, Daemon was married to Rohanne of Tyrosh. That makes a romance where any of the two would-be lovers may have dreamed of marriage pretty weird.

However, there is this curious four year gap in birth of Daemon's children between the twins and Daemon II. We assume Calla was born there but if Rohanne was perhaps absent - visiting her kin in Tyrosh for a year or even two - then this would have been the ideal time for a fledging Daemon-Daenerys romance, which was then cut short/aborted when Daeron II suddenly announced the betrothal between Maron and Daenerys in 186-87 AC.

13 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

There seems to be a great deal of racist/anti-Dornish sentiment in the Blackfyre camp since the beginning. Danaerys, as a Targaryen, should have been married to another Targaryen. I think that if she had been married to any of Daeron's sons, there wouldn't have been that much complain. Daemon might have even swallowed her to be married to a powerful Andal lord. But giving her to a Dornishman could be perceived as an insult to her.

That is certainly a point that could have played a role, but perhaps even more so among those men who didn't like Daeron II. Whether Daemon himself had that many issues with the Dornishmen isn't clear. Although he could have developed such if he didn't get along with Baelor and Daeron's other sons.

13 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Perhaps even Daenaerys tried everything she could to avoid the marriage. I could see her acting as Honoria did with Attila (coincidentally, Atilla was already married and with children when Honoria offered herself to him). I'm sure Daenaerys asked Daemon to help her avoid the marriage, appealing to their love.

If we we knew a little bit about Daenerys' own opinion about her marriage that could make sense. The lessons she taught her son in the Water Gardens indicates to me that she was a very smart, insightful, and compassionate woman. She may have loved Daemon, but she most likely understood her role in the political plans of her royal brother. And she may even have supported and applauded his goals.

[The hairy bear]

On 6/9/2017 at 1:21 AM, Lord Varys said:

I'd be very surprised if Daemon and Daenerys grew up together. For one, she was a royal princess and the fatherless bastard of a royal princess up until the age of twelve (when Daenerys was about ten). Little princesses most likely don't play or enjoy the company of bastards. They would have seen each other court, but most of the time from afar. Especially since Daenerys most likely was mostly in the care of her mother, Queen Naerys, who most likely didn't exactly shower Daemon Waters with favors or recognition.

TWOIAF tells us that Daemon Waters was "raised at the Red Keep" and "was given the instruction of the wisest maesters and the best master-at-arms at court, including Ser Quentyn Ball". She ceirtanly wasn't treated as a bastard, and Yandels seems to imply that it was suspected by everyone that Aegon was Daemon's father since his birth. In those circumstances, I don't see why they couldn't grow up together and develop a strong attachment.

On 6/9/2017 at 1:21 AM, Lord Varys said:

Now, after Daemon was acknowledged by Aegon IV and given Blackfyre he would have gained a lot of prestige and a more prestigious place at court. But Daenerys was still only 10-12 in the last two years of the reign of her father. Scarcely the time for a deep love story.

Sansa is eleven at the beginning of AGOT. In her first POV: "Sansa did not really know Joffrey yet, but she was already in love with him". Just as Sansa went to Cersei and asked not to be sepparated from Joffrey, Danaerys could have asked his loved older half-brother to save her from her terrible fate.

On 6/9/2017 at 1:21 AM, Lord Varys said:

And then in 184 AC, shortly after Aegon's death, Daemon was married to Rohanne of Tyrosh. That makes a romance where any of the two would-be lovers may have dreamed of marriage pretty weird.

However, there is this curious four year gap in birth of Daemon's children between the twins and Daemon II. We assume Calla was born there but if Rohanne was perhaps absent - visiting her kin in Tyrosh for a year or even two - then this would have been the ideal time for a fledging Daemon-Daenerys romance, which was then cut short/aborted when Daeron II suddenly announced the betrothal between Maron and Daenerys in 186-87 AC.

That's a very interesting thought. Even if Rohanne wasn't absent, if Daemon worshiped his father and wanted to be like him, it could even be possible that he tried (and perhaps succeeded) to seduce Danaerys. Avoiding a scandal and a public relations conflict with Pentos would be an extra reason for Daeron to marry his sister away.

On 6/9/2017 at 1:21 AM, Lord Varys said:

Whether Daemon himself had that many issues with the Dornishmen isn't clear.

I'm sure he did. The Conquest of Dorne had been just 20 years ago, and surely most soldiers in Westeros had friends who had died in Dorne. And then there's their treacherous murder of the Young Dragon. Surely he was a role model for a warlike person like Daemon, and we know her mother idolized him.

We know the court was divided between the Daeron-led pro-Dornish faction and Aegon's anti-Dornish supporters, that even attempted to attack Dorne again with the wooden dragons. Without doubt Daemon was passionately on his father's camp.

 

On 6/9/2017 at 1:21 AM, Lord Varys said:

If we we knew a little bit about Daenerys' own opinion about her marriage that could make sense. The lessons she taught her son in the Water Gardens indicates to me that she was a very smart, insightful, and compassionate woman. She may have loved Daemon, but she most likely understood her role in the political plans of her royal brother. And she may even have supported and applauded his goals.

She was 15. Perhaps in her late years he came to realize the political abilities of his brother, but I doubt very much that at the beginning she supported the move. She could easily share his father's and Daemon's aversion to the Dornishmen, and Maron was, in all likelihood, significantly older than her.

Then she had the Water Gardens built for her. A secluded place away from the city, where she can be easily controlled and her bad behavior, sadness or inconvenient statements would not be publicly reported.

Another clue in the same direction is Doran Martell (who's not likely to have been influenced by Blackfyre propaganda), saying: "the whole realm knew that the girl loved Daeron's bastard brother Daemon Blackyre, and was loved by him in turn, but the king was wise enough to see that the good of thousands must come before the desires of two, even if those two were dear to him." Two things worth noticing: that the Martells also believe that Daenerys loved Daemon, and that they acknowledge that Daenaerys did not "desire" it.

[Lord Varys]

20 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

TWOIAF tells us that Daemon Waters was "raised at the Red Keep" and "was given the instruction of the wisest maesters and the best master-at-arms at court, including Ser Quentyn Ball". She ceirtanly wasn't treated as a bastard, and Yandels seems to imply that it was suspected by everyone that Aegon was Daemon's father since his birth. In those circumstances, I don't see why they couldn't grow up together and develop a strong attachment.

Still, being raised at the same court isn't the same as being raised side by side. For instance, Arya and Sansa are also raised at the Red Keep after their father takes up residence there yet they are not tended and raised by the same septas/septons, servants, maesters, tutors, etc. They have their own courts.

Daemon Waters would have been raised at the court/household of Princess Daena (while she yet lived) while the royal Princess Daenerys Targaryen would have been raised in the king and queen's (most likely the queen's) own court. They would not have spend a lot of time together.

Daemon and Daeron's sons might have spent some together in the yard, training under Fireball (although we don't know whether that training together began during the reign of Aegon IV or only during the reign of Daeron II).

Shireen and Edric have classed together at Dragonstone. But that's Dragonstone - a much smaller castle with both Edric and Shireen being children in Stannis' care. Daemon Waters and Daenerys Targaryen were in the care of different people. At least until Aegon acknowledged Daemon. From that point on they could have spent more time together especially if Daemon Blackfyre resided from that day on in Maegor's Holdfast in the king's own apartments.

20 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Sansa is eleven at the beginning of AGOT. In her first POV: "Sansa did not really know Joffrey yet, but she was already in love with him". Just as Sansa went to Cersei and asked not to be sepparated from Joffrey, Danaerys could have asked his loved older half-brother to save her from her terrible fate.

Well, I'm not denying the possibility that she might have been really in love with Daemon later. But it shouldn't have been that deep an emotion in 182-84 AC. Although I've no issue with the first attraction rising in those two last years of the reign of the Unworthy. Perhaps they even bonded over the deaths of their respective mothers? We don't know when Daena died but Naerys definitely died during the last years of the reign of Aegon IV and it seems that Daena, too, did not survive her royal cousin.

20 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

That's a very interesting thought. Even if Rohanne wasn't absent, if Daemon worshiped his father and wanted to be like him, it could even be possible that he tried (and perhaps succeeded) to seduce Danaerys. Avoiding a scandal and a public relations conflict with Tyrosh would be an extra reason for Daeron to marry his sister away.

I doubt Daemon was very much like his father. He was supposedly the Conqueror come again, and while Aegon IV was smart and witty he was nothing like Aegon I. Especially not in his last years. I very much doubt that Daemon Blackfyre liked or worshiped his father all that much. He was a fat and ugly man in his last years, after all, and he never won a great victory in the lists or any battle or war we know of.

20 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I'm sure he did. The Conquest of Dorne had been just 20 years ago, and surely most soldiers in Westeros had friends who had died in Dorne. And then there's their treacherous murder of the Young Dragon. Surely he was a role model for a warlike person like Daemon, and we know her mother idolized him.

There might be something to that. It is a pity that we know essentially nothing about Daena and her relationship to her son.

Whether Daemon himself had issues with the Dornishmen would depend on his friends. I could certainly see him only playing that card because the people turning to him hated Mariah, Maron, and Daeron II's Dornish buddies.

20 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

We know the court was divided between the Daeron-led pro-Dornish faction and Aegon's anti-Dornish supporters, that even attempted to attack Dorne again with the wooden dragons. Without doubt Daemon was passionately on his father's camp.

But that took place in 174 AC, when Daemon Blackfyre was only 3-4 years old. He would have had no part in any of that. In fact, Daemon Waters would have been a political non-entity at least until the years 178-180 AC. Then he could have become somebody's page and squire.

20 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

She was 15. Perhaps in her late years he came to realize the political abilities of his brother, but I doubt very much that at the beginning she supported the move. She could easily share his father's and Daemon's aversion to the Dornishmen, and Maron was, in all likelihood, significantly older than her.

That is all true but our Daenerys is also a passionate person who - when push comes to shove - puts duty before pleasure (e.g. Hizdahr instead of Daario).

If we had any reason to believe Daenerys had been somewhat close to Aegon IV - which we don't - I could believe she cared more about herself than the greater good but since we have no reason to do so I don't assume that. She could very well have felt exactly like Rhaella did about Hasty. And she, too, did her duty.

20 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Then she had the Water Gardens built for her. A secluded place away from the city, where she can be easily controlled and her bad behavior, sadness or inconvenient statements would not be publicly reported.

Well, we don't know when those Water Gardens were built, do we? One assumes that Maron only built them after they realized that Daenerys wasn't that happy at Sunspear.

20 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Another clue in the same direction is Doran Martell (who's not likely to have been influenced by Blackfyre propaganda), saying: "the whole realm knew that the girl loved Daeron's bastard brother Daemon Blackyre, and was loved by him in turn, but the king was wise enough to see that the good of thousands must come before the desires of two, even if those two were dear to him." Two things worth noticing: that the Martells also believe that Daenerys loved Daemon, and that they acknowledge that Daenaerys did not "desire" it.

Doran might not be influenced by Blackfyre propaganda as such but simply by singers. They like a good doomed romance and once a few decades have passed this whole Daemon-Daenerys thing might have been way too interesting to ignore. But then - it might very well have been true. The odd part here is that Doran claims the entire Realm knew stuff he as a Martell might actually know better. After all, Daenerys might have confided her close companions and even her children in her true feelings, giving Doran theoretically access to sources within his own family about the real issues here.

But my point never was that Daenerys was completely on board with the Maron match - but rather that she understood why she had to marry Maron despite the fact that she might have preferred another. Daeron II was much older than his sister but they could have still been close. In fact, Daenerys could have been close to both Daeron and Mariah.

[Ran]

It doesn't make sense that Daemon fought for love of Daenerys, but it's deliberately an example of the extreme romanticizing of Blackfyre by supporters such as Eustace Osgrey. It may well be the case that one or the other (or both) were in love with their counterpart, but this would have been many years before the rebellion, after each had been married for years to their spouses and had had children and so on.

It's entirely possible that there was a resentment from Daemon at the fact that diplomacy overruled passion, and that he may have indicated this as one of the many sins of Daeron against him and the realm, which partisans then ran with. 

[Lord Varys]

@Ran

Do you really think Daenerys may have developed feelings for Daemon after her marriage? It only took place in 187 AC, three years after Daeron II became king. Daemon was married to Rohanne very shortly after his father's death but Daenerys was technically free for another three years and we don't know whether it was clear that her hand would be the ultimate price for the Dornish union thing.

Rohanne would have technically still been a complication but if she was visiting her parents for a time after the birth of the twins and/or Calla then there would have been time for a sixteen year old Daemon and a fourteen year old Daenerys to have some sort of romance without it being overly complicated with a third party of dreams of polygamy.

Do you guys have any ideas about Daeron II's (Dornish) buddies and where he and Mariah spent their time after they were married? Was young Daeron spending parts of his childhood and youth in Dorne (perhaps when it still looked as if Baelor I might continue the Targaryen line?)? When did Mariah come to court to live with her (future) husband?

It is a pity that we know next to nothing about her. She (and Betha) should be the more powerful and influential queens of Westeros in the second and third centuries.