[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

[Weirwood Ghost]

How this episode and this season has completely:

Underutilized Bran's abilities.

Deleted Ghost.

Overdone Sansa/Arya drama.

 

Only reason for above would be so there's no major reveal of what's to come in the books. Stay patient book readers =)

[Beardy the Wildling]

10 hours ago, Zapho said:

To be quite honest, I think you should be more careful with the terms you use. I get it that you are really dissatisfied with what the show did to the books you love. Ok. Your opinion. Your pain. Yoiur personal feelings.

Others have a different opinion/experience and they come from different places maybe. There's no reason whatsoever to insult people who don't share your opinion, who try to find rational reasons for the show presenting the stuff the way it does before they cry bad writing and stupidity galore. Read the "troll" post again and you'll find that it asks for nothing more than some intelligence and maybe a semblance of a decent debating culture.

Well, nah, it calls critics of the show basement-dwellers who alienate their own families, which I'm happy to take as a joke, especially given I have a job, earn enough to support my own place, moving costs for next place, and someone else living with me, so it really doesn't make me do anything other than find it amusing. But nah, I won't hold back on my vitriol. Points are points, even if they're shown in a mean-spirited way.

When D & D and associated writers treat their critics with contempt by essentially saying 'Lol, you nerds actually think about this', and shit like 'themes are for eighth-grade book reports', I think people are free to talk as much shit and get as angry as they damn well please.

Also, you may note I'm taking MC and jcmontea's opinions on board and accepting them, for the most part. I'm only pissed at Megarova because she's coming up with bullshit on the fly and acting like it's completely true, guaranteed, and is laughably defending it because she doesn't want to accept that maybe, D & D are just a touch flawed.

What are you trying to achieve here by white knighting?

[Beardy the Wildling]

6 minutes ago, Zapho said:

The point was not that you're the nerd in the basement out of sync with society. It was that you're the nerd who thinks his opinions are above other people's. Which you sadly proved with your post. 

Maybe I do have a superiority complex. Doesn't render my opinions invalid, unless you subscribe to postmodern ideas like 'Hitler saying a tennis ball won't fit in the neck of a wine bottle means that a tennis ball does fit in the neck of a wine bottle.'

[MrJay]

6 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

When D & D and associated writers treat their critics with contempt by essentially saying 'Lol, you nerds actually think about this', and shit like 'themes are for eighth-grade book reports',

Critics? How about fans? As in, the people who made ASOIAF a big deal and even put it on their radar in the first place?

This is the second time I heard this and it still bothers me just as much. That is so damn insulting man. I don't see how someone could think so low of a group of a people but still want their money. It's like those game execs/devs who call gamers horrible things. Okay? Why are you here then if you think so low of us?

They can dislike the fans all they want. That is fine. But when you get in bed with people you do not even respect but still want their money and views, that speaks a lot about what kind of person you are. Whichever of them said the above is a horrible human. I can respect you if you are just bad at a job, but I cannot respect horrid people.

 

Edit When I asked Benioff and Weiss if it was possible to infer any overall intentionality to the upcoming 10 episodes, they sneered. “Themes are for eighth-grade book reports,” Benioff told me

This man is an idiot, confirmed 

[Beardy the Wildling]

2 hours ago, MrJay said:

Critics? How about fans? As in, the people who made ASOIAF a big deal and even put it on their radar in the first place?

This is the second time I heard this and it still bothers me just as much. That is so damn insulting man. I don't see how someone could think so low of a group of a people but still want their money. It's like those game execs/devs who call gamers horrible things. Okay? Why are you here then if you think so low of us?

They can dislike the fans all they want. That is fine. But when you get in bed with people you do not even respect but still want their money and views, that speaks a lot about what kind of person you are. Whichever of them said the above is a horrible human. I can respect you if you are just bad at a job, but I cannot respect horrid people.

 

Edit When I asked Benioff and Weiss if it was possible to infer any overall intentionality to the upcoming 10 episodes, they sneered. “Themes are for eighth-grade book reports,” Benioff told me

This man is an idiot, confirmed 

That's probably the long and skinny of why I get so emotional about these things. D & D's attitude and creative process represents everything wrong with today's cynical entertainment industry.

[Southron Gourd]

Regarding Littlefinger's contrived trial, when he thought the charges leveled were against Arya what murder did he think she was being accused of?

[Beardy the Wildling]

39 minutes ago, Southron Gourd said:

Regarding Littlefinger's contrived trial, when he thought the charges leveled were against Arya what murder did he think she was being accused of?

It doesn't matter, all they wanted was a cool moment of turning it to 'LORD BAELISH' so the Dank Memers could superimpose sunglasses onto Sophie Turner's dead eyes while overused clips of gamers/memelords screaming or airhorns play underneath.

[SirArthur]

I ... don't know if rant and rave is the right thread. I mean we can rant for you if you wish .... Ok, let's try ...

... and obviously Sandra wanted to accuse Wolverine for the crimes she did commit while living in Winterfell: Fooling some guards and sneaking into Littlefingers room. As Sandra has a witness (Littlefinger) and Wolverine is clearly dangerous so she had to bring enough Vale peacekeepers to apprehend her. And the punishment for a girl not coming of age would be a spanking session.

Either that or Dark Sandra wanted to kill Arya because as she learned from Ramsay the one true heir is the survivor and she has to kill all claimants.

I have no argument for what Sansa is doing. But I also don't know why Arya is in Winterfell like at all. Shouldn't Arya search Jon ?

[Dragons Are Real]

6 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

That's probably the long and skinny of why I get so emotional about these things. D & D's attitude and creative process represents everything wrong with today's cynical entertainment industry.

I call it Michael Bay syndrome.  I was a fan of Transformers since 1984.  I had to take a break altogether from the franchise after the third movie.  Not just because the films themselves had become insulting, but because Bay's interviews made it clear that he felt the fans were unrelenting nerds that were way too wrapped up in the past and needed to get over themselves because "no matter how much they complain, they're gonna watch it anyway."

Well, no actually.  That interview was enough to get me to stop.  And step away from Transformers altogether for several years while I regrouped and found what I actually liked about it to begin with.  (And it sure as hell wasn't Bay's shitty attitude towards the fans.)

D&D are on that path.  I honestly think if it were just me I probably would have stopped watching by the end of this season.  But my wife is all in on it until it's over.  So I know I'll see the next season.  And that makes me feel a bit queasy.  I really despise supporting arrogant people that have proven they don't deserve my time, my attention, nor my money.  And D&D have gone WAY out of their way to prove they deserve none of it.

On the bright side, my wife has given up watching the after the episode segments.  She said their attitude in those segments ruins the show for her, so she at least sees what I've seen.  She's just trying to ignore it and enjoy the spectacle.

[Beardy the Wildling]

1 hour ago, Dragons Are Real said:

I call it Michael Bay syndrome.  I was a fan of Transformers since 1984.  I had to take a break altogether from the franchise after the third movie.  Not just because the films themselves had become insulting, but because Bay's interviews made it clear that he felt the fans were unrelenting nerds that were way too wrapped up in the past and needed to get over themselves because "no matter how much they complain, they're gonna watch it anyway."

Well, no actually.  That interview was enough to get me to stop.  And step away from Transformers altogether for several years while I regrouped and found what I actually liked about it to begin with.  (And it sure as hell wasn't Bay's shitty attitude towards the fans.)

D&D are on that path.  I honestly think if it were just me I probably would have stopped watching by the end of this season.  But my wife is all in on it until it's over.  So I know I'll see the next season.  And that makes me feel a bit queasy.  I really despise supporting arrogant people that have proven they don't deserve my time, my attention, nor my money.  And D&D have gone WAY out of their way to prove they deserve none of it.

On the bright side, my wife has given up watching the after the episode segments.  She said their attitude in those segments ruins the show for her, so she at least sees what I've seen.  She's just trying to ignore it and enjoy the spectacle.

Yeah, I think that's it for me. I'd be more forgiving of the show if D & D didn't clearly think they were inspired geniuses that are revolutionary and they do shit like 'crush the sexism debate' and have cutting religious commentary (I think their commentary is about nuanced as a wannabe fourth-wave radfem and an edgy teenage atheist respectively, and I'm an outspoken egalitarian atheist myself). They say they write for the smart people, but the moment the smart people criticise them they're like 'yeah there's a lot of losers who give a shit about dumb shit like themes and consistency, but they're wrong because we're still making money'.

Like, there's a difference between just making mistakes and being arrogant, unapologetic, near-deliberately hack-like assholes.

[darmody]

On 9/21/2017 at 9:05 AM, Dragons Are Real said:

I call it Michael Bay syndrome.  I was a fan of Transformers since 1984.  I had to take a break altogether from the franchise after the third movie.  Not just because the films themselves had become insulting, but because Bay's interviews made it clear that he felt the fans were unrelenting nerds that were way too wrapped up in the past and needed to get over themselves because "no matter how much they complain, they're gonna watch it anyway."

Well, no actually.  That interview was enough to get me to stop.  And step away from Transformers altogether for several years while I regrouped and found what I actually liked about it to begin with.  (And it sure as hell wasn't Bay's shitty attitude towards the fans.)

D&D are on that path.  I honestly think if it were just me I probably would have stopped watching by the end of this season.  But my wife is all in on it until it's over.  So I know I'll see the next season.  And that makes me feel a bit queasy.  I really despise supporting arrogant people that have proven they don't deserve my time, my attention, nor my money.  And D&D have gone WAY out of their way to prove they deserve none of it.

On the bright side, my wife has given up watching the after the episode segments.  She said their attitude in those segments ruins the show for her, so she at least sees what I've seen.  She's just trying to ignore it and enjoy the spectacle.

Your Transformers problem differs from my problem with Game of Thrones. If Michael Bay has betrayed the spirit of the franchise (the movies certainly don't resemble the tv and cartoon movie I remember from back when), that's unfortunate. Would be nice if the current series was as good as the 1986 cartoon movie. But you can't have it all. 

If he's contemptuous of the fans, that's something else. That sucks. But he might have a point, if he says "The franchise is mine now. Take it or leave it." Not a great point, but something of a point. 

With Game of Thrones, on the other hand, if D&D were merely contemptuous of fans of the book series, I'd understand. Though they're supposedly book fans themselves and should sympathize, they'd be telling the truth by saying the books are not the show. Just like Michael Bay can say his movie series and previous installments of the franchise aren't the same thing. Even though both are drafting off of pre-existing material to boost their bank accounts. 

Thing is, however, D&D are contemptuous of fans of the tv series, too. I find show-bashers more likely to be fans of previous seasons--mostly the first four seasons--than mere book fans or not fans of the series at all. Granted, there's overlap. A lot of book fans were fans of the first few seasons, and they'll regularly employ arguments from a book perspective. As in, "Here's why D&D don't understand the motivations of Book Arya."

But their criticisms aren't restricted to adaptation decay. And they're not the only ones. Plenty of fans are comparing D&D now unfavorably to D&D in the past. Just so happens that in the past they had George Martin to prop up their writing. But essentially for a lot of fans or former fans their criticism resembles someone who loved the first two Transformers films but hates the fifth (or whatever number they're on by now) one. 

[Le Cygne]

The problems are not just adaptation ones, but with the show itself. The characters change from season to season, from scene to scene, sometimes from line to line, with no rhyme or reason. And plot threads are dangling everywhere, things they cared about before mean nothing now, and the other way around, because a plot that seems to come out of nowhere demands it, or because of no reason at all, the writers just forgot what they wrote before. They are not telling a good story, and whatever story they are telling, they are not telling well.

[Beardy the Wildling]

44 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

The problems are not just adaptation ones, but with the show itself. The characters change from season to season, from scene to scene, sometimes from line to line, with no rhyme or reason. And plot threads are dangling everywhere, things they cared about before mean nothing now, and the other way around, because a plot that seems to come out of nowhere demands it, or because of no reason at all, the writers just forgot what they wrote before. They are not telling a good story, and whatever story they are telling, they are not telling well.

Yes, this is the issue. Contrary to popular opinions on people who hate GoT, most of us aren't arsed about how much the show deviates (or not) from the books. I sure as hell know I'd prefer Dorne to have been cut out if I knew the horrendous fanfiction the Ds would come up with just because they found the story of a daughter trying to establish herself to a dismissive father 'boring' (probably).

There's bad adaptation, and bad writing. And at the worst of times, GoT is a badaptationiting mess.

[SirArthur]

54 minutes ago, Megorova said:

She heard from Hot Pie that Jon Snow is in Winterfell, so she went there to reunite with Jon. Unfortunately by the moment she got there, he already left to Dragonstone.

And ? Why is she in Winterfell from this point onward ? She goes to Winterfell because Jon is there. And then ? Chooses NOT to travel with Brienne to the meeting. Why ? 

I have written this elsewhere. Her entire arc is at the meeting. It's not the book with fake Arya in Winterfell. The show makes it very clear that she turned around for jon. Then Jon is not there. But she has really enough time to follow Jon. 

And I have written elsewhere also that Arya in the second part of the season is like Ghost: Sitting around in Winterfell and waiting until master Jon returns. 

 

edit: if you have fun trolling its OK. But at least troll to the argument. 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

On 8/27/2017 at 4:12 PM, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Welcome to the season ending Rant and Rave thread, The Pit of Despair, I mean of Dragons Edition.  This is the thread for complaints on the episode and the season and series.  Let 'er rip with the Rants!! 

 

Below are notes of thread rules from RAN, board administrator with a link to his post. 

 

[/Mod]

The topic of the thread is discussing things you dislike about the show. It is not a place to throw insults at one another or to act as if the normal rules of the forum do not apply.

Discussion of why people disliked something is permitted, but remember the topic at hand: this is not a debate thread, it's a discussion thread specifically about episode details or events that posters disliked. Posts that ignore this will be considered off-topic.

 

 

Hmm, just wondering what I've walked into in my attempt to catch up on the thread. 

 

[Jon and Dany Targaryen]

^{It disturbs me that Cersei does not recognize HER hand in all of her childrens' deaths. EVERY SINGLE one of them! The first act in murdering her husband... then pinning the death of that son on Tyrion, Providing an army for the sparrows... and then blowing up the sept. It's all her doing.} 

[Beardy the Wildling]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

I prefer normal discussions, but that Birdy the Wall-e guy degraded everything to the level of kindergarten brawl. I tried to behave like an adult for 10+ pages, but even my tolerance isn't endless.

I may have been the first to disagree with you in an admittedly hostile manner. It began with frustration that someone of your intellect would waste so much energy coming up with explanations for stuff that I didn't believe D & D would ever care to think about, but I'm far from the only one to disagree with you here.

And heck, look at my discussions with jcmontea and the likes. I may not agree with him on every point, and I may get a little hostile, but every now and then I concede he has a good point, every now and then he concedes I have one. And that, my friend, is a discussion. JC and I's main point of disagreement seems to be what constitutes bad writing, what's worth getting angry about, and the core motivations of D & D (JC believes a flawed attempt at a faithful adaptation + entertaining TV, I think cynical SHOCK MOMENTS and moneymaking, entertaining TV as a means to an end).

The reason why I continue to heckle you (though really, at this point, I'm a relatively infrequent poster just punting in every now and then) is because you haven't made any efforts to acknowledge those who disagree with you (and there are a lot: SirArthur, darmody, MrJay, Jabul, The Golden Wolf, MinscSC2, etc) as anything other than morons too closed-minded to see anything other than your extensive, convoluted fanfictions as anything other than fact. It's fun seeing someone so completely convinced of their superiority (ironic, given I do indeed have a bit of a superiority complex, but clearly not enough of one to not be chill with JC and the likes) frantically try to deal with 90 different disagreements with a thousand-word essay on why each person is wrong and you're the smartest person in the room.

But honestly, it's getting kind of tiresome. You keep threatening to 'leave' the 'War Makes No Sense' thread, yet you just can't help but post some more stuff on how wrong any person who disagrees with you is, can you? You're addicted. I think that more than makes up for the fact I'll be waiting two years to drink my peppermint shots when, inevitably, in the six episodes remaining to the show, none of them prove your long, rambling theories correct.

PS: Protip; if you want to come off as the bigger man, don't maliciously misname an intentionally silly name like 'Beardy the Wildling' into 'Birdy the Wall-E'. People might think you're in eighth grade, and we all know how much your Gods D & D hold eighth grade in contempt.

PPS: I'm actually flattered that you think I'm famous here. I've only commented on S7E7's threads and the Gen thread remarking on how D & D have missed RR's point.

[LynnS]

18 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

PPS: I'm actually flattered that you think I'm famous here

Hell YES! You are famous Beardy!

[SirArthur]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

To resolve Sansa's situation with Littlefinger.

Arya is a support character then. When Brienne was travelling there was not even an issue with Littlefinger. 

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Furthermore one of the reasons why Sansa send Brienne away, is because when she had a conversation with Littlefinger, she realised that he wants to use Brienne against Arya. That if he will tell Brienne that Arya is treatening Sansa, then Brienne will have to do something with this. And as result of it, one of them (Brienne or Arya) could die or be seriously hurt.

This has nothing to do with Arya's own motivations for doing things.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Earlier LF said to Sansa something like, when she's dealing with someone, she should imagine that she is that person, and imagine what is the worst thing that he/she will do in certain situation. So Sansa understood what LF wanted to get from her confrontation with Arya - to off either Arya, or Brienne, to eliminate Sansa's protectors. That's why he made Sansa to feal jealous, in scene where Arya spared with Brienne. Sansa already got used that Brienne is loyal and deligendly serves to her, and her alone. But here comes Arya, and says something like - Didn't you swore to our mother, to serve to both of her daughters?

That has again nothing to do with Arya's own motivation. Again more Sansa things. 

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Arya realised that LF wants to solely influence Sansa, thus he will try to get rid of others - Arya, Brienne, Bran. So she stayd home to help Sansa. Also this confrontation between 3 Starks, LF and Brienne, has brought to the surface that Stark family has unresolved problems between them. So first Stark sisters should confront each other, and say to each others faces, whatever they think about each others fault and blame, and not being home when their family needed them the most.

In any case within your logic she would stay to help Bran. But Bran doesn't care, Brienne goes anyway and Arya staying home to protect Arya .. yeah. 

Further there are enough unresolved problems that nobody cares about like at all. Like Mikken. Was never resolved between Arya and Sansa. If you want that confrontation scene you would write it this way. But again, it has nothing to do with Arya's motivation. Sansa is stupid. Why even fight ? Arya would just go away. 

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

And when they killed LF, Arya stayed home with her family, where she should be. 

So you have no reason why she doesn't travel to the meeting ? Because she doesn't need to travel with Brienne. 

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Especially because winter is comming, and they all should be together: "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.” This was reference to Starks, they are wolves, if they want to survive, they need to stick together.

So she risks Jon dying in the south by this argumentation (because Jon is alone). Great motivation. This is just awesome. Now you told me how everyone else wants Arya to do things. But still, the question what Arya wants is completely ignored. What is her inner motivation and why is Sansa more important than Jon, Cersei or the Mountain ? Is the list now unimportant ? Because the winter will be long and nobody is going anywhere ... according to your own argumentation.

According to that winter motivation Jon and Dany moving north is not even possible. Admit it, Arya has been decraded to a support character without motivation that can be turned around by one-liners. Next Arya has a weapon I will one line "weapons are not for girls" and because father Ned said it she will put away her weapon and stop killing things. Yeah. Much motivation. Much wow. 

[Beardy the Wildling]

20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Hell YES! You are famous Beardy!

D'aw shucks. Nah, I'm not super established, but hey, there's time. I guess I can fit in the overarching mythos of the forum as 'that asshole who complains a lot'