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Lady Fevre Dream

[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

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1 hour ago, SuperMario said:

Yep. Well said! The audience knowing what the show characters somehow know goes along with another horrible aspect the showrunners use - Characters earning it off screen.

The Blackfish retakes Riverrun. The Vale forces get past Moat Cailin in the north. Littlefinger somehow has the note Sansa was forced to write in season 1 to Robb. Jorah is infirmed at Oldtown. Arya hung out at the Twins for a couple weeks pretending to be Walder Frey. I could go on and on. But none of it matters. It all happened off screen, so we are supposed to just go with it just like the characters do.

We the audience knows everything that is happening, so fuck it, might as well make the characters know it too.

Agreed. Earning things off screen is very bad storytelling. When things happen off screen, it should be done intentionally to highlight :

  • That our characters did not experience it (it's hearsay)
  • That it was not very relevant to our characters
  • That it was mysterious for our characters
  • That it was mundane (like bathroom breaks or sleeping)
  • To subvert audience expectations (Not a fan of this, it's gimmicky, but can be fair storytelling)

D&D use offscreen to just avoid addressing logistics of the story and obstacles they don't feel like dealing with all together. It's cheap, it's lazy, and it's objectively bad storytelling because it objectively diminishes the coherence of the story. This isn't a different tastes thing. All your examples are good ones, and the impossible travel times are the same.

 

 

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On 8/28/2017 at 8:39 AM, Sir Dingleberry said:

This part made me laugh.  He sent Marcella away to keep her safe and Cersei/Tywins trial made the entire murder of her occur.  I guess some blame could be put on Tyrion for placing her there but it seems minor compared.  And we've established Joffrey's death wasn't his.  And she blames him for Tommen's because he killed her dad.  Seems logical even though he bitches constantly about being the only one who learned how to rule from Tywin and yet accepts no responsibility for her failing at ruling and leaving the family vulnerable.

There was a smidgen of truth to Cersei's accusation, though blaming Tyrion for her childrens' death is far-fetched. Tyrone did leave the family exposed when he killed daddy. Presumably Tywin knew the Tyrell's had to be dealt with, despite not knowing they had Joffrey killed. He wasted time dealing with his innocent, but his plan was to infiltrate the Reach by marrying Cersei to Loras. Do we really think Marge could've monopolized Tommen with grandpa there as Hand? I don't think so. No doubt there were all sorts of other schemes. 

Who knows what the Bad Pussy Posse would've done with Tywin alive. Their crusade was nonsensical enough to begin with. But maybe Cersei is right about them waiting to move until the Lannisters looked weak. But Tommen, that's mommy's fault, purely and simply. She kicked off the Faith Militant problem. She's the one who backed herself into a corner such that only blowing up all her enemies at once lost her on top. 

As serious a crime as is patricide, the show doesn't stress enough the fact that Cersei and Tywin broke up the family, not Tyrion. (He could've just left without taking it out on daddy, yes. And it's entirely unclear to me why he wants to preserve Cersei's life instead of killing her like dad. The only difference, aside from the fact that Cersei tried to kill him more often, is his impudent who're girlfriend. Which I get, because he felt betrayed. But anyway, it was hasty. And at this point Tyrion might as well be done with it. Either you're at war with them and conquering the seven kingdoms, or you're not.) They tried to have him killed, he got away and now has no loyalty to the brood, except to look concerned about their army's charred corpses and plead for his Dragon Queen not to burn them all willy-nilly. 

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On 8/28/2017 at 8:41 AM, ummester said:

Imagine if Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter found out their mum was a slutty homewrecker and their dad abandoned an entire family to make them - that's where this story is headed, it seems.

Luke's mom wasn't slutty (she apparently couldn't even date men because she was a senator?), but his dad was Darth Vader. So there's that. 

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2 hours ago, iprayiam said:

This has become a hallmark of the laziness of the show this season. Basically, anything we the audience are assumed to know is just hand waived by characters on screen. The show has no consistency, logic, or depth about what a character should actually know or believe in world.

Other Example:

  • The audience knew the wall was coming down, so Jon basically treated it like it didn't exist
  • The audience knows Jon rose from the dead, and believes himself free from the Watch, so no other character questions his apparent oath breaking. In fact they all talk about what a man of his word he is.
  • The audience knows Jon is telling the truth about the WWs so Tyrion and Dany quickly believe him for plot convenience. 
  • The audience knows Cersei is a creator's pet, so nobody questions her reign or allying with her.
  • The audience knows Cersei has plot armor, so everybody acts like it would be difficult to defeat her and stupid to try, when there's logistically and ethically no reason either would be true.
  • The audience knows Tyrion is "smart" so everyone goes along with everything stupid he come up with.
  • The audience knows the show is going to make a ton of money, so nobody does anything reasonable or logical ever

 

I'll add that the audience knows that LF is guilty, so the other characters just accept the accusations with no proof beyond LF's utterly uncharacteristic fumbling.

The guy's supposed to be a master liar and bs artist. Of all the possibilities in one's mind or whatever he said, he never once thought of what he'd say if he was accused of what he actually did? The first thing criminals usually think of is what they'd say/do if they were caught.

Great observation.

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1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

and that reminds me....that the superRomance between the two members of the SuperFour team (Jon and Dany, aso known as Jonerys) had their romance offscreen, because I saw nothing onscreen.

 

The viewer was supposed to be extremely aware of how much time has passed and assumed they’ve had a lot more time together off screen than what the viewer saw which was very little. So being painfully aware of the passage of time and off screen possibilities is in fact necessary to believe Jonerys.

Except during the wight hunt, the viewer had to completely disregard the passage of time and distance if this wasn't to be completely absurd.

So the viewer is supposed to read the minds of the show creators as to when noticing time/distance is essential to understanding the plot and when it should be completely ignored to make sense of the plot because it changes from scene to scene.

 

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"Oh, btw, there's something about an annulment. Can you look it up to see if you can find something?" Bran is just a glorified research assistant to Sam, who himself is about to be dragged to the courts for plagiarism and copyright infringement by Gilly.

Sansa reminds me of Cersei, except without any power. Overestimates herself. And Arya, as Sir Davos rightly pointed out is a crazy serial killer. Both are insufferable. There. I said it.

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3 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

It was a vision from the past, not a metaphor. It could very well be Elia in the vision ofc. Wasn't Jon already born when Rhaegar went to the Trident? Confused about that chronology. But the show is prolly not following that anyway. 

No. Jon was born after Robert was already on the throne but still recovering from his injuries that Rhaegar gave him.  

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I honestly think I would have preferred less "awesome CGI", and more story.

What did Iain Glen say, oh yeah:

‘They are taking the length of time it takes to shoot ten episodes to shoot just seven this year and six next year,’ Iain Glen, who plays Ser Jorah in the show told RadioTimes.com.

‘I think the scale and size of the set pieces, the world that is being created it’s just getting more and more extraordinary,’ he added. ‘They feel they need that time to shoot seven hours as opposed to ten.’

No. Just no.

You can't leave it to the Inside the Show extras to "explain" the story. Your story should explain the story, and it doesn't even take that much to satisfy most people moaning about this. A little conversation here, a whisper there, sight of a letter with enough time to read enough of it to get the gist that something is going down.

I'm still sore on the lack of plot development, so I'm going to moan about it again. 

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On 8/28/2017 at 9:29 AM, Iotun said:

regardless of the fact that he knew his death could endanger Myrcella. Is it fair to Tyrion to blame him? Of course not, but his feelings of guilt now make more sense - and make me wish there had been some conflict between him and the Sand Snakes. Anyway, that actually makes me appreciate the scene between Cercei and Tyrion better now.

How did he know the Viper's death could endanger Myrcella? I mean, it was Oberin's choice to champion him. Why Lady Sand Snake went nuts and drove Dorne to disaster is beyond me. The show didn't bother explaining it, either. Tyrone could and should have been able to rely on hus alliance with the ruling House. Wheelchair guy and his heir had no interest in hurting Myrcella. The fact that Crazy Girlfriend took the Viper's death out on his niece is not Tyrion's responsibility. 

In any case, the whole affair could've been avoided by Cersei and Tywin not setting Tyrion up. Or the Viper not fighting like an idiot and just finishing the Mountain off. 

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2 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Considering Lyanna's bed of blood seems to go with the actual act of childbirth (if not infection too a bit afterwards), I'm thinking Rhaegar had been dead a good couple months, at least, by the time Jon was born.  Ned had to hit KL after the Trident, have issues with Jaime, Tywin, and Robert, then go lift the siege at Storms End, then.....get his ass to Dorne to find Lyanna in that bed of blood.  So, two months is probably much too generous a guess between the time of Rhaegar's death and Jon's birth.  I'd say three months?  Maybish?  Two and a half months maybe, Ned probably was in a bit of a hurry.

If there's a time gap like that after Rhaegar is killed, how come Robert doesn't go looking for Lyanna? Ned clearly found out where she was. It's possible she let him know. When he found out, how come he didn't tell Robert right away considering he went to war for her and all. Even if Robert was injured, it's hard to believe he wouldn't look for Lyanna like crazy. He could have let the entire army look for her. And wasn't Arthur Dayne protecting her? How did he explain his whereabouts to the king? (Was he Aerys loyal? I don't think so). Is this chronology obvious in the book cuz I don't remember clearly? I thought all the of the stuff at the end of war sort of happened near simultaneously. 

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Anyone else thinking that now that Tyrion's googly eyes for Dany will be unrequited and Petyr has been cut out of the picture it's time for Sansa and Tyrion to go for it.

Ext. Winterfell.- Sansa stands atop the walls looking into the courtyard. Tyrion approaches.

Tyrion - My lady

Sansa - My Lord

a pause ....

Sansa - Winter makes me want to fuck

Tyrion - Winter has cum

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O no, the squishers are coming!

 

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24 minutes ago, hallapino said:

Anyone else thinking that now that Tyrion's googly eyes for Dany will be unrequited and Petyr has been cut out of the picture it's time for Sansa and Tyrion to go for it.

Sansa and Jaime. There's an unwritten rule in tv series: if a character is hot, he/she will always find someone to get laid with. 

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54 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

If there's a time gap like that after Rhaegar is killed, how come Robert doesn't go looking for Lyanna? Ned clearly found out where she was. It's possible she let him know. When he found out, how come he didn't tell Robert right away considering he went to war for her and all. Even if Robert was injured, it's hard to believe he wouldn't look for Lyanna like crazy. He could have let the entire army look for her. And wasn't Arthur Dayne protecting her? How did he explain his whereabouts to the king? (Was he Aerys loyal? I don't think so). Is this chronology obvious in the book cuz I don't remember clearly? I thought all the of the stuff at the end of war sort of happened near simultaneously. 

Robert was injured by Rhaegar at the Trident, he even stayed behind there while Ned and most of the forces rode on to King's Landing.  From there, it seems Robert must have made it to KL, because I recall Ned thinking about how he and Robert quarreled about the dead dragonspawn Tywin presented in the throne room.  Dead dragonspawn named Aegon and Rhaenys.  From there, I suppose Robert continued to recover and/or work on politics because Ned was given the task of ending the siege at Storm's End.  It's only from there that Ned and a few friends head to Dorne, the Tower of Joy, to find Lyanna dying in a bed of blood.  That's got to be a bit of time for all that travelling.  I'm even giving the KL and Storm's End stuff a pass on taking too long, and going with maybe 2 1/2 to 3 months since Rhaegar left Dorne and Lyanna.  Rhaegar came to KL to gather forces before heading to the Trident. 

All of this to say...........however it all went down, it's really stupid to give Jon the name Aegon.  The last Rhaegar knew, his first son Aegon was alive.  Let's even give a pass and say the show doesn't want us to believe that Rhaegar is such a jerk that he disinherited his first son.  He just wanted a medieval divorce, LOL, so hence the word annulment from the Ds.  So, we have some time lapse.  I guess we could blame the name on Lyanna, LOL, but???  Why would she want her son to have exact name as his half brother?  Dead or alive?  I suppose now we could come up with a bunch of hand waving and say:  Well, Ned didn;t want to tell Lyanna all the bad news?  I doubt that would even matter.  After all, even show verse, I'm not sure HOW out of contact her and Arthur Dayne and Co were.  Did they know info from the outside world?.  It wouldn't matter what Ned did or didn't tell Lyanna. 

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I was also hoping that that Tyrion would have heard a bit more during his eavedropping during the sex scene. Something like Daenerys saying "You know nothing Jon Snow"

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31 minutes ago, 3sm1r said:

Sansa and Jaime. There's an unwritten rule in tv series: if a character is hot, he/she will always find someone to get laid with. 

I'm fairly sure this also works in real life.

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1 hour ago, Tijgy said:

O no, the squishers are coming!

 

You can't even call this a story anymore, and then they throw money at it, so it's nothing wrapped up in an expensive production (and black costumes).

They could have just spent a season giving each character much needed depth and then showed the few plot points that's really all that happened.

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3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I'll add that the audience knows that LF is guilty, so the other characters just accept the accusations with no proof beyond LF's utterly uncharacteristic fumbling.

The guy's supposed to be a master liar and bs artist. Of all the possibilities in one's mind or whatever he said, he never once thought of what he'd say if he was accused of what he actually did? The first thing criminals usually think of is what they'd say/do if they were caught.

Great observation.

I'm furious that they butchered this storyline. The culmination of the story arc is that Sansa kills Petyr. That's what makes the most sense.

To say nothing of the fact that, as the ruling power of the North at this stage, Sansa must be the one to kill Petyr. The series opened with this very scene: Ned said, "Whoever passes the sentence swings the sword."

Sansa convicted Petyr, in front of a hall of northern lords, who would expect her to be the one to kill Petyr. It's the way of the First Men. Sansa getting Arya to do it - even though they are sisters - is a grave offence to their culture.

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32 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

You can't even call this a story anymore, and then they throw money at it, so it's nothing wrapped up in an expensive production (and black costumes).

They could have just spent a season giving each character much needed depth and then showed the few plot points that's really all that happened.

I do remember they actually intended to do a slower season where there was a lot of talking. But then they decided there should be action (aka wight hunt). 

 

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