[Poll] How would you rate episode 707?

[Ser Gareth]

7 hours ago, plastic throne said:

I could say some stuff for 10/10 posters and their reasoning behind it but choose not to.

Some can ignore all the bad (and there's A LOT of it) and get hyped because some line of text or something (like dragons)... But many can't because it breaks their immersion. Many people ask question regarding the show they watch, seek answers and do not take everything and every explanation as the logical one.

But saying that the show is high quality in writing, that is just plain lie, blindness or w/e reason. But mostly just being unable to recognize quality, after all, a quick glance at popular culture is more than enough for me. All surface, no depth.

Straw man argument.  I don't think I've ever seen anyone say it's high art.  The show is not high art.  The books are not high art.

The fact is people love the show as entertainment and get excited about it.  Why do book snobs have to constantly try and nit pick holes in every single thread and ram them down people's throats?  The forum has its own nit picking thread where people can rant about the show needing to be cancelled because a character is 0.5cm shorter in the TV show than in the books etc.  The negativity doesn't have to be spread to every single bloody thread!

[Ser Gareth]

6 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

May be when Cersei said "In return, the King in the North will extend this truce. He will remain in the North where he belongs. He will not take up arms against the Lannisters. He will not choose sides" he could have answered
"As I said, the Great War  is the only war that matters... I've already chosen a side, I fight for the Living. It's pointless to make promises about a future that might never come"  instead of saying "I cannot serve two queens. I've already pledged myself to the other "   Which two queens?? He was being asked to not serve any, not to choose between the two. He didn't need to serve any, he would have sticked to that, and the plot shouldnt have put him in a position of doing otherwise. That's on the writers, they want to create a bunch of new false struggles (as if we need more of those), and we'll have to thank all those upcoming false struggles (Jon-the North, Dany-Jon when they'll discover who he is,Jon-his Stark family, etc ) to that senseless "I'd bend the knee" of episode 6. 

Yes, I know, I've read people complaining about "boring dialog" in the rate thread of each episode, lol.  But those are the fans who don't care about the story, they are just happy with battles and dragons breathing fire. I do not watch this show for that. I enjoy the battles and the dragons too, but what makes it interesting for me are the characters and the story. 

And the result would have been the same.  Cersei was looking for Jon Snow (believing him to be Eddard's son) to swear an oath.  He had three options.  1) Lie.  Never going to happen.  2) Answer the question evasively, in which case she'd have pressed it and forced him to choose either option 1 or 3.  3) Say no.

[Ser Gareth]

3 hours ago, JagLover said:

For me the major problem with the show is the plot arcs and structure.

Aside from a couple of actors the acting ranges from good to very good. There are brilliant costumes, set design, action scenes and CGI. Ep 4 was better than most movies let alone TV shows.

The fundamental problem is that once they moved beyond both the books, and what could be reasonable implied from the books, they seem lost.

10 minutes into Ep5 is where the show ended in terms of developing a logical and coherant plot. For it was then that the plan to "catch a wight" to "convince" your defeated enemy was unveiled. 

Individual episodes can still be decent, the problem is the plot.

D&D almost certainly wont be able to bring this to a satisfying conclusion as it seems they don't care anymore, or just don't have the writing ability. 

Which is a great tragedy as this is the only ending to the story we are ever likely to see. 

You are making assumptions that what you hate in terms of plot from the show isn't actually from the books.  We have no idea.

[StepStark]

15 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

The show is not high art.  The books are not high art.

 

10 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

You are making assumptions that what you hate in terms of plot from the show isn't actually from the books.  We have no idea.

You obviously don't understand the books at all (possibly because you didn't even read them) if after five books you can't see that nothing even remotely as stupid as wight hunt can come from GRRM's mind.

D&D are throwing into each episodes stupidities likes of which are never seen in a serious storytelling and were never seen in the five ASOIAF novels published so far. For some of us that is more than enough to realize the difference in class between GRRM and D&D. For D&D fanboys like yourself it obviously isn't and most probably nothing ever will, and you'll go on bitching and whining about any criticism of the show.

So here's a suggestion: why don't you stay away from the internet discussions about GOT? It's inevitable that in those discussions you run into someone who thinks and processes what he watches, and makes conclusions and comparisons to the source material and other shows that in contrast are written by competent writers. And since you obviously can't stand anyone speaking badly about your favorite toy of a show, you'll just end up loosing a lot of time and nerves, none of which you can take back later on. So why torture yourself?

You say you watch GOT for entertainment only. Good, that's your right. But these discussions are obviously not entertaining for you, simply because they involve people who ask from the show something more than just mindless fun. And discussing the show with them inevitably diminishes your entertainment, obviously.

I assume you're not a minor. And there's nothing more pathetic than grown-ups bitching and whining about someone messing with their favorite toys. Grown-ups shouldn't have toys. And grown-ups shouldn't be whining and bitching. So maybe it's really best for you to forget about all this. Just saying. It's your decision, of course.

[RSasoiaf]

25 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

You are making assumptions that what you hate in terms of plot from the show isn't actually from the books.  We have no idea.

If the same issues show up on the books, be sure they will be criticized.

I dont know if you have noticed but book fans have been critic on the latest books. Its overall consensus that up till a Storm of Swords, the quality of pace and writing was much better. 

The problem you have is that for some reason you dont want critics. But critics are a good part of life. They help us grow. If we stop discussing stuff and getting diferente views, then we stop evolution. 

So let people have their views. 

Martin himself has been fairly criticized for getting into kind of a bottleneck in is narrative. We still dont know how he intends to get free from it and he does not look very eager to even try.

 

[RSasoiaf]

My vote goes as 6

Reason behind: Its still a fun show to watch so I had to be on the positive side. Its also something that I will likely like to view again someday, maybe only the key moments but its still something.

So positive it is.

It cant be more then a 6 for me because of the storytelling. And yes, I am on the train of plot holes and incoherent characters. I can often find myself laughing at times. 

As for the episode, one of my remarks to a friend was:

So now Tyrion is on the Undead side? Because if it was not for is absolute shit plan they would never have gotten past the wall. Now lets deal with it....this is what show logic has created. Which...is fun and all that but...just fun.

 

[RSasoiaf]

On the negative side,

One of the murdered characters is precisely Tyrion.

The same Tyrion who outsmarted everyone for seasons, now cant have a good idea. All his plans are foolish or just not on the level of his enemies.

Also, the same Tyrion who had it in himself to kill his father, now wants to make truce and talk with his sister. The same sister who hates him even more then his father and he is well aware of it. The same sister who wanted to kill him, who would threaten him all the time. And this is the one player with whom he wants to be reasonable with? 

Only because he now is "The most moral man in the universe" 

He is no longer Tyrion Lannister

And remember about Game of Thrones "you win or you die"

remember that, and then think that having a truce and dealing with Cersei is exactly on the same level of stupid that Ned Stark was. Now, present day everyone knows how he ended. Everyone should know how the High Septon ended, how Maergery ended. 

So why the hell do they all want to die???

[plastic throne]

1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said:

Straw man argument.  I don't think I've ever seen anyone say it's high art.  The show is not high art.  The books are not high art.

Anyone giving the show an 8, 9, 10 is effectively saying the show has high art writing (actually high art on every department).

1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said:

The fact is people love the show as entertainment and get excited about it.  Why do book snobs have to constantly try and nit pick holes in every single thread and ram them down people's throats?  The forum has its own nit picking thread where people can rant about the show needing to be cancelled because a character is 0.5cm shorter in the TV show than in the books etc.  The negativity doesn't have to be spread to every single bloody thread!

1. I'm not a snob, thank you.

2. I'll write in threads I feel I have something to say/add. I don't see this thread is "What did you love about this episode?" My second post was meant as a reply to a rant about rants. "They don't get it", well, I don't get how anyone can give this show a 10, but hey. They still do - so what?

3. Bolded, talking about straw man arguments Who said that?

The nitpicking is not nitpick anymore in many things, like it was in first few seasons, there are major plot holes and major nonsensical stuff, character butchering (Jaime, Tyrion, Jon "Tardaryan", Varys, LF, etc,...) I don't care about the height of Gregor Clegane, I can live with that (as long as they don't cast a 'dwarf'), but I can't live with the 'Great Wight hunt' mini adventure, which they effectively spent 2 hours on it, and just because they can't think of a way how to get the NK pass the wall. I can't live with Cersei (has zero bargaining chips) still being in power where she has been literally robbed of any. I can't live with ravens going with the speed of a Lamborghini,... Sorry mate, but these aren't minor nit picks.

Even the battles (which are very nice visually) are spoiled by show's (now already a standard) deux ex machina (at least twice per major character per battle), then there's Hollywood cliches,... This does not deserve high score at all, writing is atrocious.

Costumes, which so many love to point out, are great - no argue there, but are there any fashion guidelines all characters are taking into account? Like, winter collection, it's all about the black? Influenced by the watcher on the walls ?

Music is great though, perhaps the best thing in the show.

Edited August 29, 2017 by plastic throne

[Mr Smith]

I really don't know how to rate this one. Only Game of Thrones would produce such an impressive conclusion to a mixed season, and still manage to piss away it's most important piece of story IN THE SAME EPISODE. Lets break it down:

What I liked:

 - The dragonpit meeting. Could have been anticlimactic, but I personally felt there was enough of a blend between airing old grievances and discussing the larger threat. And you have to give the show credit for one thing: the "capture a wright" plan has been roundly criticised (in some cases quite fairly), but there was genuine value in showing a dead man to people who'd never seen it before. It did a good job of proving that nothing compares to seeing something with your own eyes.

 - Tyrion and Cersei. Wow, what a scene. The content was well written, but they could have been reciting lines from a geography textbook and it still would have been compelling. I would go as far to say that was the best acted scene in the history of the show.

 - Theon's fight. It was nice to see him finally have a win. All the more sweet as it came out of the ashes of his own suffering.

 - Jamie's departure. He's finally set Cersei aside! Only took a dead man. But again, a great scene. Both of them very much in character. And adding in the Golden Company was a nice touch, I hope they go some way to articulate their interests as Westerosi exiles desperate for a way back home.

 - BOATSEX. Buy into the hype. You know you want to...

What I didn't like:

 - Littlefinger's end. Again, I'll give credit where its due: the scene on its own worked well. If it had been built better, I would have really enjoyed it. But unfortunately, this moment couldn't hold the weight of what was done to reach it. I won't pretend I didn't enjoy watching Littlefinger's crimes laid bear in front of him however.
 - R + L = J. What a shame. For most of this season, it seemed as though the show had been building something really powerful: a dramatic irony that hung over almost every scene Jon was in, reminding us that while we know the truth of Jon's parentage, the characters do not, adding weight and tension to every move Jon makes, every situation he is placed in. That has now been lost, with possibly one of the cheapest moments in TV history. We'll never know whether this moment was debated long into the night behind closed doors, but the conclusion we have reached is ultimately unsatisfying, especially given the potential the show appeared to be building.

And finally, the wall comes down. Do I think this will be the way it happens in the books? No. But the scene works on its own, and while I feel it possibly struggled under the weight of its own spectacle, it was really the only way to end season 7.

I've settled on giving the episode an 8. And the season a 7. And now the wait begins again.

[Ser Gareth]

2 hours ago, plastic throne said:

Anyone giving the show an 8, 9, 10 is effectively saying the show has high art writing (actually high art on every department).

1. I'm not a snob, thank you.

2. I'll write in threads I feel I have something to say/add. I don't see this thread is "What did you love about this episode?" My second post was meant as a reply to a rant about rants. "They don't get it", well, I don't get how anyone can give this show a 10, but hey. They still do - so what?

3. Bolded, talking about straw man arguments Who said that?

The nitpicking is not nitpick anymore in many things, like it was in first few seasons, there are major plot holes and major nonsensical stuff, character butchering (Jaime, Tyrion, Jon "Tardaryan", Varys, LF, etc,...) I don't care about the height of Gregor Clegane, I can live with that (as long as they don't cast a 'dwarf'), but I can't live with the 'Great Wight hunt' mini adventure, which they effectively spent 2 hours on it, and just because they can't think of a way how to get the NK pass the wall. I can't live with Cersei (has zero bargaining chips) still being in power where she has been literally robbed of any. I can't live with ravens going with the speed of a Lamborghini,... Sorry mate, but these aren't minor nit picks.

Even the battles (which are very nice visually) are spoiled by show's (now already a standard) deux ex machina (at least twice per major character per battle), then there's Hollywood cliches,... This does not deserve high score at all, writing is atrocious.

Costumes, which so many love to point out, are great - no argue there, but are there any fashion guidelines all characters are taking into account? Like, winter collection, it's all about the black? Influenced by the watcher on the walls ?

Music is great though, perhaps the best thing in the show.

We have different views on ratings then.  High art can be boring as hell.  Low brow stuff can be entertaining as hell.  If someone rates 10 out of 10 then they really enjoyed it and were entertained.

And as I pointed out elsewhere, we don't know what would have been in the books.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if the ranging behind the wall to bring a wight to King's Landing does happen in the books as well.  I am very certain that Cersei will be on the Iron Throne and it will be Dany that deposes her.  Which means she'll defeat Aegon.

[Ser Gareth]

2 hours ago, StepStark said:

 

You obviously don't understand the books at all (possibly because you didn't even read them) if after five books you can't see that nothing even remotely as stupid as wight hunt can come from GRRM's mind.

D&D are throwing into each episodes stupidities likes of which are never seen in a serious storytelling and were never seen in the five ASOIAF novels published so far. For some of us that is more than enough to realize the difference in class between GRRM and D&D. For D&D fanboys like yourself it obviously isn't and most probably nothing ever will, and you'll go on bitching and whining about any criticism of the show.

So here's a suggestion: why don't you stay away from the internet discussions about GOT? It's inevitable that in those discussions you run into someone who thinks and processes what he watches, and makes conclusions and comparisons to the source material and other shows that in contrast are written by competent writers. And since you obviously can't stand anyone speaking badly about your favorite toy of a show, you'll just end up loosing a lot of time and nerves, none of which you can take back later on. So why torture yourself?

You say you watch GOT for entertainment only. Good, that's your right. But these discussions are obviously not entertaining for you, simply because they involve people who ask from the show something more than just mindless fun. And discussing the show with them inevitably diminishes your entertainment, obviously.

I assume you're not a minor. And there's nothing more pathetic than grown-ups bitching and whining about someone messing with their favorite toys. Grown-ups shouldn't have toys. And grown-ups shouldn't be whining and bitching. So maybe it's really best for you to forget about all this. Just saying. It's your decision, of course.

Don't worry about me mate.  I find the whole thing amusing (especially condescending responses like yours!), not annoying.

[Lord Pauly]

On 28/08/2017 at 0:35 PM, John Hulboy said:

I think we who love everything GOT are gonna see a lot of our favorites fight to the death.not happy NK has a dragon means it was all a trap to get dragons north so he could have something to break wall...Cercie with this golden Company does that mean Aegon \ Connington are with them .gonna be a long wait .wish George would give us his ending before HBO gives us theres .the leaks for season 8i pray they are false.not right !!!

The choice to go north of the wall to get a wight to show to Cersei is still the dumbest plotline the series has ever come up with 

[Ser Quork]

48 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

We have different views on ratings then.  High art can be boring as hell.  Low brow stuff can be entertaining as hell.  If someone rates 10 out of 10 then they really enjoyed it and were entertained.

And as I pointed out elsewhere, we don't know what would have been in the books.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if the ranging behind the wall to bring a wight to King's Landing does happen in the books as well.  I am very certain that Cersei will be on the Iron Throne and it will be Dany that deposes her.  Which means she'll defeat Aegon.

But Jon has two wights in the ice cells at Castle Black.

[Vibalist]

I don't understand all the tens and elevens and twelves people give this episode.I consider it a three or a four. Maybe not as a standalone episode, but as a continuation of a season that has been very, very bad.

I think the worst moment was the one leading up to the meeting in the Dragon's Pit. Not because anything egregious happened there, but because the scene with all the characters walking along together solidified how much of a fan service show Game of Thrones has become. I think it's obvious that the writers have been trying to work towards such an event from the minute they were given full reigns over the story, a moment where fans can go "Oh, look! It's The Hound and Brienne, together!" "Cool! It's The Hound threatening his big brother! Cleganebowl is coming!" "Oh, wow, it's Jon, Cersei, Daenerys, Tyrion, Brienne, Davos, Missandei (if anyone cares about this boring non-character), Bronn and Jaime, all in the same room!" It felt like some weird ensemble thing that could only happen on an SNL skit, or in a show where all logic and internal consistency has long been thrown out of the window. It felt like giving in to the fans' wishes that characters are constantly reunited and thrown into situations where they meet each other, because "wouldn't it be cool if...". It was simply the consequence of the writing being a complete train wreck for the past three to four seasons. A shit storm that's been building for 30 episodes, if you will.

There's really nothing new to point out here that hasn't already been said, because this episode is bad for the same reason every episode since season 4 has been bad. Characters are a complete far cry from their original selves, not because they've evolved, but because they've devolved into stock heroes and villains (in a show where the author famously said that the battle between good and evil "takes place within the human heart", and not between good guys in white and bad guys in black). Littlefinger's death was the result of a non sensical scheme which caused two characters – Arya and Sansa – to act completely irrationally for no reason. It was obvious that this plot line only served to create false tension and to kill off the useless Littlefinger character, whom the showrunners had no clue what to do with.

Theon's fight against that Ironborn commander was a complete joke, not least of all because they decided to make a humorous moment out of Theon's castration ("it doesn't hurt when he gets kicked in the balls because he doesn't have any, har har"), but also because those ridiculous Ironborn turned at the drop of a hat and suddenly decided saving Yara is worthwhile, because what? Because their ridiculed and emasculated prince won a scrap by a stroke of luck, brought on by him not having a dick? This show doesn't even have the guts to kill off Theon, a character whom they've given ten minutes of screen time in the last 20 episodes, a guy who by all means could have had a fitting ending on that beach, betrayed by his own men who no longer respect him, weakened and humiliated. But of course he ends up pulling through because this is now Lord of the Rings, and he's one of the good guys.

Lena Headey is the only thing I liked about this episode, maybe this season. Cersei is still a moderately interesting character, and Headey can act, unlike dead pan Emilia Clarke. Having Daenerys and Cersei together in a scene really solidified the massive gap between their respective levels of talent, even if they barely said a word to each other in a scene that, by all logic, should have centered around them.

I also have to mention the non existant chemistry between Kit Harrington and Emilia Clarke. This is in part due to the fact that the actors portraying them are the least talented on the entire show, but also because there's no reason these characters should like each other. They just have sex because, hey, the fans want it.

There's just nothing here anymore, aside from good acting and nice visuals. Granted, that's pretty important, but without a coherent story, everything else is just a backdrop to bunch of nothing. The best we can hope for in season eight are some spectacular fights and maybe an ending that isn't all flowery, but I wouldn't even bank on the latter by now.

[King Louis II (KLII)]

20 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

 

And finally, I'll agree with you that The Spoils of War was the best episode and battle of the season. I did think that this episode was a very nice rebound from the weaker "Eastwatch" and "Beyond the Wall" though (and I still enjoyed both those episodes), and part of that was due to the increased focus on diplomacy and character moments and the slower pace.

Just adding a little about the conversation. This finale was very good i.m.o when we take it the episode in isolation. The problem that I can't ignore, is that all things that set this episode were examples of the worst stuff that the show ever produced. 

The Dragon Pit scene with the wigh was great, but then I remember that the whole idea (to capture the wigh) was offensively stupid... 

The Arya-Sansa-Bran-LF scene was great! but then I remember that the dialogues and the forced drama between arya and sansa in the preceding episodes were terrible.

The Dragon scene at Eastwatch was great, but then we realized that if wasn't for a stupid wigh hunt, the chains-from nowhere,which by the way were attached to the dragon by wighs that can't swim , the NK wouldn't have a Dragon. Summary: the stupid wigh hunt basic allowed the NK to cross the wall

so if I was watching the season backwards, I would have given an 8 or 9. But because I wasn't I gave I think a 5 or a 4 (don't remember but was in that range).

another thing, is I have the feeling that they did not need 80 minutes to tell the story of this episode. The extra minutes would have be much more useful in previous episodes where the storytelling was severely compromised by rushing...

[King Louis II (KLII)]

12 minutes ago, Vibalist said:

solidified how much of a fan service show Game of Thrones has become. 

I have been hearing this over and over again, and if D&D are intending to do "fan service" I think they are failing miserably because what captures the fans is logic, political game, good dialogues.. This is well reflected in the scores that we see here. Spoils of War, was the best of the Season, while Eastwatch and Beyound the wall received poor scores. 

other than Cleganebowl, which became a favorite, I think the best service to the fans would be to have attention for details, coherence, realism, politics and complex characters.

Tyrion was perhaps the favorite character from the fans... at least was the character that every fan liked (differently than Jon and Danerys who has their "haters"). Look what they did with him his complexity was deconstructed every season bacame more and more simple.. is this fan service?

Edited August 29, 2017 by King Louis II (KLII)

[StepStark]

1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said:

Don't worry about me mate.  I find the whole thing amusing (especially condescending responses like yours!), not annoying.

Why are you whining all the time then?

[Vibalist]

13 minutes ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

I have been hearing this over and over again, and if D&D are intending to do "fan service" I think they are failing miserably because what captures the fans is logic, political game, good dialogues.. This is well reflected in the scores that we see here. Spoils of War, was the best of the Season, while Eastwatch and Beyound the wall received poor scores. 

other than Cleganebowl, which became a favorite, I think the best service to the fans would be to have attention for details, coherence, realism, politics and complex characters.

Tyrion was perhaps the favorite character from the fans... at least was the character that every fan liked (differently than Jon and Danerys who has their "haters"). Look what they did with him his complexity was deconstructed every season bacame more and more simple.. is this fan service?

Yes, because what fans want on a surface level is something that makes them feel good. Seeing Tyrion become a hero feels good, reuniting the Starks feels good, seeing Daenerys come out of nowhere yet again with her dragons to turn the tide of a battle feels good.... initially, and especially if you watch the show with other people, where everyone is hyping each other up.

It's only when you reflect on the plot inconsistencies you begin to dislike the story, but HBO isn't interested in the type of viewer who does that, they're interested in the initial hype factor, the spectacle, the ratings. And the show delivers on that front. Watch the hundreds of reaction videos where people cheer when Arya kills Frey or when Daenerys burns the Lannister army. GoT is a pop culture phenomenon now, with millions of fans who could give less of a fuck about the larger themes and the deconstruction of traditional fantasy, and only want the epicness.

[The Knight of Flours]

this thread is high art... oh wait

[plastic throne]

57 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

We have different views on ratings then.  High art can be boring as hell.  Low brow stuff can be entertaining as hell.  If someone rates 10 out of 10 then they really enjoyed it and were entertained.

And as I pointed out elsewhere, we don't know what would have been in the books.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if the ranging behind the wall to bring a wight to King's Landing does happen in the books as well.  I am very certain that Cersei will be on the Iron Throne and it will be Dany that deposes her.  Which means she'll defeat Aegon.

I come from a family that really appreciates literature, music,... Actually everything in life, food, drinks, art,... We're true hedonists

For me, to give a series/movie a 10/10 rating, it has to be something really really spectacular not just in terms of visuals, music, acting, story... But it needs to have a long, if not everlasting influence on me. To open a subject, to make me think, make me feel or challenge in some ways. ASOIAF, though it has its negatives, was up there. Characters, their interaction and development of those is really where GRRM is a true master and why this story caught my eyes at first. And then I really liked attention to detail; it really payed off (first few seasons), so I choose to read books and oh my did I like them very much because of it. Now, suddenly attention to detail is not preferred anymore due to popping up whole lot of questions that sadly cannot be answered. At least not within the frame show hands it to you.

Was I ever entertained sometimes by a bad show/music performance/movie? Sure, but I'd never gave it a 10/10 rating because of it, because I understand the limitations of it, and I cannot ignore that. You watch, you forget, that doesn't deserve a fantastic rating. Example, it's like going to a concert (let's say Justin Bieber, though there's no way I'd go there, not even if you pay me), I get smashed and have a good time with my friends, OK, I had a good time but is he a 10 stars artist I'd recommend listening to? Nah.