[Poll] How would you rate episode 707?

[Gargarax]

1 minute ago, Ser Gareth said:

There have been shit loads over the years.  I know because I used to be like you, defending GRRM over pretty much everything.  But I am not going to spend my time trawling through archives trying to find articles on it!

Don't make assumptions about whether I defend Martin over everything - I don't. Basically, you have ignored most arguments made on the last two pages (although I do appreciate your thoughts on why AFFC is flawed, even if they are without any examples and highly subjective). That's the problem with some ardent show defenders: You don't even try to give evidence for your claims - which is why the interesting critical discourse is in the hands of show critics, who care enough to write insightful essays and produce hours of podcast analysis. It would be so great to have a constructive dialogue somewhere, but no, show snobs (let's introduce that term) prefer to ignore critical discussions as booksnobbery.

[Ser Gareth]

2 minutes ago, Gargarax said:

Don't make assumptions about whether I defend Martin over everything - I don't. Basically, you have ignored most arguments made on the last two pages (although I do appreciate your thoughts on why AFFC is flawed, even if they are without any examples and highly subjective). That's the problem with some ardent show defenders: You don't even try to give evidence for your claims - which is why the interesting critical discourse is in the hands of show critics, who care enough to write insightful essays and produce hours of podcast analysis. It would be so great to have a constructive dialogue somewhere, but no, show snobs (let's introduce that term) prefer to ignore critical discussions as booksnobbery.

Nitpicking isn't insightful.  The flaws in the show are obvious and most people (show snobs!) that can be arsed to try and defend the show will freely admit that.

But most people don't try and defend the show because they can't be bothered to argue over something they're actually enjoying (those with an axe to grind will always have more to say and more motivation to say it) and on this forum at least they get beaten down but the very vocal minority.  And they are a minority as clearly demonstrated by the actual ratings in the ratings thread as opposed to the posts (the vast majority of which are negative about the show).

I have several gripes about the show.  But I also understand that the show will never be as rich in content as the books and the visual medium will always struggle with subtlety over a book (e.g. you really have to make things obvious to the viewer).

But my ultimate point remains the same.  AGOT is massively popular and well received so it's not a failure.  And my secondary point is that the show is far from perfect but nowhere near as bad as the majority of regular posters on this forum try to make out.

 

 

[Gargarax]

1 minute ago, Ser Gareth said:

Nitpicking isn't insightful.  The flaws in the show are obvious and most people (show snobs!) that can be arsed to try and defend the show will freely admit that.

But most people don't try and defend the show because they can't be bothered to argue over something they're actually enjoying (those with an axe to grind will always have more to say and more motivation to say it) and on this forum at least they get beaten down but the very vocal minority.  And they are a minority as clearly demonstrated by the actual ratings in the ratings thread as opposed to the posts (the vast majority of which are negative about the show).

I have several gripes about the show.  But I also understand that the show will never be as rich in content as the books and the visual medium will always struggle with subtlety over a book (e.g. you really have to make things obvious to the viewer).

But my ultimate point remains the same.  AGOT is massively popular and well received so it's not a failure.  And my secondary point is that the show is far from perfect but nowhere near as bad as the majority of regular posters on this forum try to make out.

1. None of the critical analyses are mainly about nitpicks. On a plot level, almost nothing makes any sense at all. Sansa's and Arya's story in Winterfell this season is straightforward nonsensical. If this story was a novel, no serious publisher in the world would print it. None. Nobody says you can't enjoy the show, nobody. Saying it's a well-written show is what some people take issue with. Nobody cares about the fact that the show has deviated from the books, people care because it deviates and did it so very very badly.

2. Popularity never implies quality. Most pop songs have been listend to more often than Mozart's work, and nobody in their right mind would say they are better. "Transformers" has had much more success than Tarkovsky's "Stalker", although the first is trash and the second is art. GoT has had many more viewers than "The Wire", altough "The Wire" should probably get a Nobel Prize for TV, while GoT should not even win Emmys outside the technical categories. The popularity argument is no more than a fallacy.

[Meera of Tarth]

11 hours ago, Gargarax said:

5/10.

Tought one to rate. It was clearly better than last week. The best thing were clearly the sets - the Dragonpit in particular was gorgeous. And there were moments that gave me what I had missed on GoT for quite a while, like the snow falling on Kings Landing and Jaimie witnessing it. Jon talking to Theon was almost acceptable dialogue again, and almost a good character moment. And the CGI was quite alright again, and more atmospheric than last week. Overall, it was really quite a beautiful episode.

However, this didn't change the fact that plotwise, it didn't make any more sense than the episodes before. It became even more clear that there was no reason for the meeting in KL, since Cersei has no army that is worth such a long delay. The winterfell plot introduced one of the most unearned twists in the series so far. And what's with the dick jokes - it's getting so ridiculuous it makes immersion impossible. Who finds that funny. No really, who? And Theon immune to crotch-kick-pain - who writes shit like this into a major TV show?

If the writing was bad, the direction was worse. I think the dragonpit scene was probably directed by the camera guy ("now Euron get up and insult Tyrion - go") - they did stuff that I wouldn't let a highschool drama production get away with. Euron was fucking terrible - this is not a bad actor, but he was unconvincing like no one else. He wasn't the only one, though. There was no chemistry between Jon and Danaerys - they seemed to have sex out of boredom. Arya was terrible. Littlefinger's plea felt so unmotivated, but then Aidan Gillen hasn't had anything to work with for more than two seasons now.

Conclusion: Visually enjoyable with some good moments, but such an awful script and such ininspired acting and directing that I was still majorly disappointed.

[StepStark]

1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said:

See NOW you're becoming boring and less amusing.  Why?  Because you're adopting spin tactics which for me is the last refuge of someone who cannot back up their opinions with logic.

Spin? I'm quoting you directly. Your posts don't need spinning to be illogical, they usually are already.

[Meera of Tarth]

8 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Who are these insane people who constantly give a TV show 1,2,3,4 etc, and keep watching?  i give up on anything that isn't an 8, if you don't like it stop watching, and then nobody has to listen to angsty f'ing moans. 

how do you know for certain that it's the same people who constanly give the same ratings?

I for one have rated this season from 2 (first time in history with the wight hunt) to 6 in another episode. Not everyone rates each episode with the same ratings.

And also, why should anyone stop watching something they are invested in because they either liked the source material or the previous seasons and now it's not convincing? Maybe people want to know the ending and/or have hope for a better resolution  or have other reasons to watch, each their own. It is known that s7 was filler, after all, so probably there is also a reason for this numbers.

Also it's a bit hypocritical to moan about other people's moans. One would say, just don't listen to them as well?. If I'm not interested in reading people moaning, I don't read it. But I'll never say to other people stop writing critical reviews about what you have watched, be it 10/10 or 1/10

Also, I respect you way of watching things (only 8 to above) but lots of people won't stop watching something if one day it scores worse than 8. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by Meera of Tarth

[Ingelheim]

41 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Nitpicking isn't insightful.  The flaws in the show are obvious and most people (show snobs!) that can be arsed to try and defend the show will freely admit that.

But most people don't try and defend the show because they can't be bothered to argue over something they're actually enjoying (those with an axe to grind will always have more to say and more motivation to say it) and on this forum at least they get beaten down but the very vocal minority.  And they are a minority as clearly demonstrated by the actual ratings in the ratings thread as opposed to the posts (the vast majority of which are negative about the show).

I have several gripes about the show.  But I also understand that the show will never be as rich in content as the books and the visual medium will always struggle with subtlety over a book (e.g. you really have to make things obvious to the viewer).

But my ultimate point remains the same.  AGOT is massively popular and well received so it's not a failure.  And my secondary point is that the show is far from perfect but nowhere near as bad as the majority of regular posters on this forum try to make out.

 

 

This. The show is flawed, speacially after Season 5, when they surprassed the books, but it's still one of the best TV Show out there and the most famous one in history. They will teach about GOT in cinema schools for decades.

[Raven Banner]

I gave it very generous 3. It was not as bad as the last two episodes, but I hoped the finale would give the plots meaning. I cant' find anything about Winterfell plot to make any sense.

Last week I remembered that D&D had to change the pilot completely. I wish they will do the same with the last two seasons.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Raven Banner

[Gargarax]

22 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

This. The show is flawed, speacially after Season 5, when they surprassed the books, but it's still one of the best TV Show out there and the most famous one in history. They will teach about GOT in cinema schools for decades.

I'm curious - teaching what exactly? I use the Dracarys scene from S3 to teach different types of shots and how they can be used effectively to help tell the story. I haven't seen any scenes since S3 that I thought were good examples of camera work, montage, lighting or any other technical category. But maybe I have overlooked something while trying to make sense of the script that will only ever be taught as a negative example 

[Vibalist]

2 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

Not in my opinion.  Both the books and the TV show are completely unrealistic fantasy.  Character interactions and conversations in both are unrealistic.  The characters are, as with most stores, hammed up.  Character responses to situations are unrealistic because realistic reactions are usually dull etc.

One of the two things that really annoys me (book and show) is how they've got this reputation that they're breaking tropes (they're not) and how no one is safe based purely on Eddard getting killed in the first book/series.  Since then all the other major characters have pretty much survived (obviously not Catelyn in the show).  Even the major supporting cast characters from season one have pretty much survived with the exception of Robb.

Re: your first point. The books and show are not 'completely unrealistic' fantasy, but semi realistic. They have dragons, certain characters that are larger than life (especially on the show), but the main characters are mortal, flawed and, most importantly, very restricted by the rigid feudal society they inhabit. To call a story that goes out of its way to show realistic consequences, that purposefully makes its characters confused, flawed, tragic and subject to rules and laws larger than themselves, that actually has them react believably to many situations (contrary to what you say) is not the definition of 'completely unrealistic' by any stretch.

Re: your second point. You're wrong about the show and books not breaking tropes. To say this is, once again, a complete stretch. Even if you're right that no one major dies after Robb (which I'd dispute), there's still the fact that Ned and Robb do die. And then there's the fact that one doesn't need to kill a character to break a fantasy trope. aSoIaF breaks tropes in so many other ways. Evil schemers like Littlefinger don't get their comeuppance (at least not yet), but thrive because they know how to plan. The charming mercenary sidekick, Bronn, turns out not to have a heart of gold, but really is as selfish as he appears outwardly. The skilled knight who builds his entire identity on being a good swordfighter loses his hand, and is forced to re-evaluate his entire life.

These are the exact kinds of things you'd see in a story that isn't interested in playing tropes straight, and all these things serve to make aSoIaF exactly the kind of (semi)realistic tale you claim it isn't.

Also, just as an aside, here are a few other shock deaths that aren't Robb or Ned: Renly, Oberyn, Khal Drogo, Viserys, Quentyn, plus what happens to Theon (not a death, I know, but still shocking and unexpected).

Edited August 29, 2017 by Vibalist

[Ingelheim]

46 minutes ago, Gargarax said:

I'm curious - teaching what exactly? I use the Dracarys scene from S3 to teach different types of shots and how they can be used effectively to help tell the story. I haven't seen any scenes since S3 that I thought were good examples of camera work, montage, lighting or any other technical category. But maybe I have overlooked something while trying to make sense of the script that will only ever be taught as a negative example 

Mmmmm okay dude haha, I guess you must have missed quite a few episodes then.

[Gargarax]

5 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Mmmmm okay dude haha, I guess you must have missed quite a few episodes then.

You can't laugh and not give an answer. I'm seriously interested in examples. I know the show has great CGI - but only compared to other shows. Any example from recent movies would be as valid an example as GoT's CGI. So ... what scenes are you thinking of?

[Ingelheim]

1 hour ago, Gargarax said:

You can't laugh and not give an answer. I'm seriously interested in examples. I know the show has great CGI - but only compared to other shows. Any example from recent movies would be as valid an example as GoT's CGI. So ... what scenes are you thinking of?

CGI? I'm not talking about CGI...GOT is universally praised for its technical perfection, in fact is one of the few things even the most hardcore haters admit. Sound design, camera work, photography...GOT excels in every one of these categories.

I also disagree with your statement about the CGI, by the way. I know many movies that have worse CGI than GOT, the Hobbit trilogy being an example of it. Drogon is 184728392 times better done than Smaug.

An example? You have plenty. Watch Hardhome again, or the Battle of the Bastards (there's one tracking shot in there that's just pure gold) to watch outstanding camera work, CGI, photography, etc. Montage? Watch the first 15 minutes of Winds of Winter. Sound design? Dead Viserion screaming last episode.

And I could go on and on about it. I'm just talking about recent episodes and giving a few examples, there are actually hundreds of it.. Even back in Season 1 and 2 GOT was extraordinary in those aspects, Blackwater was unique and even more considering it was released in 2012.

I wasn't joking about GOT being taught in film schools. It's already being done, at least here in Spain where I'm from, and I can assure you that.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Ingelheim

[King Louis II (KLII)]

4 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

No, that's what appeases book fanatics.  Especially if the screenplay follows the relevant book very closely.

The fact is viewing figures have soared the last few seasons during a period of the show that a lot of book fans are disgruntled with it.

I think you are missing the big picture and the trend that is happening with show business.

The reason that GoT made all its sucess is not CGI, explosions and Dragons. But exactly what you are saying that appeases "book fanatics". Follow me for a minute. Because a fan base (book readers or not) that understand what GoT is about, and because these fans are very vocal, buy merchandise, and create blogs like that, that a fanbase and a TREND.was created. .. the word of mouth spreads and yes, than you attract the more numerous YEAH-TITS-DRAGONS-EXPLOSIONS-VIOLENCE-YEAH!

This is done gradually. We have seen the quality of the storytelling decrease season after season. The people that understand the show is already too invested to abandon it and now you can attract more fans just by giving what the "people" want.

In other words, You put a lot of effort and detail in an awesome show (first seasons) , than you become lazy, because once it is becoming a pop culture phenom you just feed the same BS that is in Transformers, Scorpion King or any cash cow movie. This is not new.  It is what happened with LOST, Homeland, Dexter and many others.

Playing to what YOU call fanbase, (what I call fan base, you call "book fanatics" even when many haven;t read the books), will not have a big impact in the current show.. you can basically feed any crap right now that will have audience. HOWEVER IT WILL SEVERELY AFFECT ANY SEQUELS OR SUCCESSORS... You can be sure.  Can you image what a failure it would be to make a sequel of LOST now? after being revealed that was a intellectual con since the beginning?

 

added: For people that missed the first post. My take is that what made GoT a success was it was storytelling, impeccable detail, unpredictability, politics and intrigue, attention to the mythology of the show, and complex characters (not total good or evil).  The importance of that "package" was gradually being replaced to the same receipt that has been used in regular action movies).

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by King Louis II (KLII)

[King Louis II (KLII)]

48 minutes ago, Gargarax said:

You can't laugh and not give an answer. I'm seriously interested in examples. I know the show has great CGI - but only compared to other shows. Any example from recent movies would be as valid an example as GoT's CGI. So ... what scenes are you thinking of?

Clash of Titans

300

Alien franchise

Lord of the rings

Transformers

Mummy-Scorpion King tec. (for their time)..

In term of battles, the Battle of the beginning of gladiator was impressive...

But my point is, if I want CGI, visuals and stuff I will go to Dysneyworld and Universal... not watch a movie...

 

added: I think my previous post explain better why I think CGI and Visuals are not the point.

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by King Louis II (KLII)

[Ser Gareth]

2 hours ago, Gargarax said:

1. None of the critical analyses are mainly about nitpicks. On a plot level, almost nothing makes any sense at all. Sansa's and Arya's story in Winterfell this season is straightforward nonsensical. If this story was a novel, no serious publisher in the world would print it. None. Nobody says you can't enjoy the show, nobody. Saying it's a well-written show is what some people take issue with. Nobody cares about the fact that the show has deviated from the books, people care because it deviates and did it so very very badly.

2. Popularity never implies quality. Most pop songs have been listend to more often than Mozart's work, and nobody in their right mind would say they are better. "Transformers" has had much more success than Tarkovsky's "Stalker", although the first is trash and the second is art. GoT has had many more viewers than "The Wire", altough "The Wire" should probably get a Nobel Prize for TV, while GoT should not even win Emmys outside the technical categories. The popularity argument is no more than a fallacy.

The Wire is probably the greatest TV show of all time (discarding the final season!) and of course it's better than AGOT.  It's not fantasy for a start so everything is so much more believable and relatable.  AGOT is pretty much own it's own in terms of pure fantasy that has endured so really it's more comparable to Star Treks or Spartacus.

As for the plot, I keep telling people that we don't know what they've come up with themselves and what they've done based on an outline from GRRM.

For what it's worth I think Littlefinger will meet his end in Winterfell at Sansa's command and I do believe it will be by Arya's hand.  The reason for this is because I believe it was Littlefinger that truly engineered Ned's beheading by telling Joffrey he should do it.  So it will be poetic that he meets his end at the Stark home.

I also think the whole mission beyond the Wall to obtain a Wight to prove to both Queens that the threat is real will happen in the books, although it won't be the same cast of characters that does the ranging.  I agree that that particular plot is ridiculous.  In fact I've been saying that ever since AGOT (the novel).  The pacing involving the Others and the sheer ambivalence shown by everyone to the threat is by far the greatest weakness in the entire story.

As for popularity, ordinarily I'd 100% agree with your statement bar one thing.  Demographics.  AGOT has transcended demographics in a massive way.  Transformers and Taylor Swift appeal to one or two demographics who go out and buy on en mass.  AGOT is a different animal all together.  In fact, soaps aside, the last TV show I can recall having such a wide array of impact was the original V back in the 1980's.

 

[Ser Gareth]

22 minutes ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

I think you are missing the big picture and the trend that is happening with show business.

The reason that GoT made all its sucess is not CGI, explosions and Dragons. But exactly what you are saying that appeases "book fanatics". Follow me for a minute. Because a fan base (book readers or not) that understand what GoT is about, and because these fans are very vocal, buy merchandise, and create blogs like that, that a fanbase and a TREND.was created. .. the word of mouth spreads and yes, than you attract the more numerous YEAH-TITS-DRAGONS-EXPLOSIONS-VIOLENCE-YEAH!

This is done gradually. We have seen the quality of the storytelling decrease season after season. The people that understand the show is already too invested to abandon it and now you can attract more fans just by giving what the "people" want.

In other words, You put a lot of effort and detail in an awesome show (first seasons) , than you become lazy, because once it is becoming a pop culture phenom you just feed the same BS that is in Transformers, Scorpion King or any cash cow movie. This is not new.  It is what happened with LOST, Homeland, Dexter and many others.

Playing to what YOU call fanbase, (what I call fan base, you call "book fanatics" even when many haven;t read the books), will not have a big impact in the current show.. you can basically feed any crap right now that will have audience. HOWEVER IT WILL SEVERELY AFFECT ANY SEQUELS OR SUCCESSORS... You can be sure.  Can you image what a failure it would be to make a sequel of LOST now? after being revealed that was a intellectual con since the beginning?

 

 

As I point out elsewhere, non-book readers I have spoken to (who love the show) point to seasons 1 to 4 as being too slow and most of them prefer the later seasons.  I personally don't agree with them but the sheer arrogance so many book fans have at dismissing the opinions of the Unsullied (which in itself is such an arrogant pathetic thing to call someone) is pathetic.

[King Louis II (KLII)]

2 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

As for popularity, ordinarily I'd 100% agree with your statement bar one thing.  Demographics.  AGOT has transcended demographics in a massive way.  Transformers and Taylor Swift appeal to one or two demographics who go out and buy on en mass.  AGOT is a different animal all together.  In fact, soaps aside, the last TV show I can recall having such a wide array of impact was the original V back in the 1980's.

 

LOST had a bigger average audience in the first season than GoT in the current season. And the internet was not what is today them...

[King Louis II (KLII)]

2 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

As I point out elsewhere, non-book readers I have spoken to (who love the show) point to seasons 1 to 4 as being too slow and most of them prefer the later seasons.  I personally don't agree with them but the sheer arrogance so many book fans have at dismissing the opinions of the Unsullied (which in itself is such an arrogant pathetic thing to call someone) is pathetic.

I don't see the same population that you see. We have examples even here, but I guess we have to agree to disagree based on our samples until a scientific study is done ,

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 hours ago, Vibalist said:

I don't understand all the tens and elevens and twelves people give this episode.I consider it a three or a four. Maybe not as a standalone episode, but as a continuation of a season that has been very, very bad.

I think the worst moment was the one leading up to the meeting in the Dragon's Pit. Not because anything egregious happened there, but because the scene with all the characters walking along together solidified how much of a fan service show Game of Thrones has become. I think it's obvious that the writers have been trying to work towards such an event from the minute they were given full reigns over the story, a moment where fans can go "Oh, look! It's The Hound and Brienne, together!" "Cool! It's The Hound threatening his big brother! Cleganebowl is coming!" "Oh, wow, it's Jon, Cersei, Daenerys, Tyrion, Brienne, Davos, Missandei (if anyone cares about this boring non-character), Bronn and Jaime, all in the same room!" It felt like some weird ensemble thing that could only happen on an SNL skit, or in a show where all logic and internal consistency has long been thrown out of the window. It felt like giving in to the fans' wishes that characters are constantly reunited and thrown into situations where they meet each other, because "wouldn't it be cool if...". It was simply the consequence of the writing being a complete train wreck for the past three to four seasons. A shit storm that's been building for 30 episodes, if you will.

There's really nothing new to point out here that hasn't already been said, because this episode is bad for the same reason every episode since season 4 has been bad. Characters are a complete far cry from their original selves, not because they've evolved, but because they've devolved into stock heroes and villains (in a show where the author famously said that the battle between good and evil "takes place within the human heart", and not between good guys in white and bad guys in black). Littlefinger's death was the result of a non sensical scheme which caused two characters – Arya and Sansa – to act completely irrationally for no reason. It was obvious that this plot line only served to create false tension and to kill off the useless Littlefinger character, whom the showrunners had no clue what to do with.

Theon's fight against that Ironborn commander was a complete joke, not least of all because they decided to make a humorous moment out of Theon's castration ("it doesn't hurt when he gets kicked in the balls because he doesn't have any, har har"), but also because those ridiculous Ironborn turned at the drop of a hat and suddenly decided saving Yara is worthwhile, because what? Because their ridiculed and emasculated prince won a scrap by a stroke of luck, brought on by him not having a dick? This show doesn't even have the guts to kill off Theon, a character whom they've given ten minutes of screen time in the last 20 episodes, a guy who by all means could have had a fitting ending on that beach, betrayed by his own men who no longer respect him, weakened and humiliated. But of course he ends up pulling through because this is now Lord of the Rings, and he's one of the good guys.

Lena Headey is the only thing I liked about this episode, maybe this season. Cersei is still a moderately interesting character, and Headey can act, unlike dead pan Emilia Clarke. Having Daenerys and Cersei together in a scene really solidified the massive gap between their respective levels of talent, even if they barely said a word to each other in a scene that, by all logic, should have centered around them.

I also have to mention the non existant chemistry between Kit Harrington and Emilia Clarke. This is in part due to the fact that the actors portraying them are the least talented on the entire show, but also because there's no reason these characters should like each other. They just have sex because, hey, the fans want it.

There's just nothing here anymore, aside from good acting and nice visuals. Granted, that's pretty important, but without a coherent story, everything else is just a backdrop to bunch of nothing. The best we can hope for in season eight are some spectacular fights and maybe an ending that isn't all flowery, but I wouldn't even bank on the latter by now.

I couldn't disagree more. I felt the chemistry was almost palpable. The look Danaerys gave when Jon said he was going beyond the wall told all. I agree Emilia has not always acted the best but I think that says more to the direction she has been given than it does to her acting abilities. Either way I think she does magnificent when not having to be "badass" Kit is a good actor IMO also. He is meant to be brooding which I feel he pulls off very well. 

There is also a multitude of reasons they should like each other. Not only because they are both attractive (but that does help) but also Jon likes woman that are not the stereotypical "lady" as evidenced by his liking Ygritte. Danaerys needs someone who doesn't fawn & fall all over her, someone loyal to a fault like Jon. Also together they have the best chance of conquering Westeros.