[Poll] How would you rate episode 707?

[Ingelheim]

37 minutes ago, Dragonslack said:

Last week the rate thread had better dialogue than the episode, and I understood the positions. Same compared this show with a huge budget and backstory and fantastic things to ordinary cheap shows, and other noticed the tremendous bad writing.

This week I do not understand why the scoring is higher. A 4 to be generous.

The fantastic/FX this episode was nothing compared to the previous one and even less compared to the dragons munching on lannisters. The NK riding that dragon looked like a scooby doo cartoon, embarrassing. Obviously their money and time was mostly spent on the main dragon. The skeleton was not scary at all, undead queensguard could eat it for lunch.

How can anybody give that mess of a plot a perfect 10?! Looking at the comments here, I guess it's the dumb and dumber logic, just give people the payouts they want, logic be damned! "I wanted to see this so badly..." Fan service in the end turns a show into one of those spoof movies. That is why they want to end this quickly.

The dialogue was not witty or clever at all, it was terrible. Previous episode at least it was entertaining at times. Now it has become monty python. 

 

 

Hahaha sure dude, I guess we are all dumb and dumber, you must be the only one clever around here.

[duncanthemedium]

I would still rate the episode (ep.4) where Dany and Drogon swoop in on the Lannister Army in the Reach (or whereever, Crownlands?) as the best one. Jaime has that brave knight brain fart and Bronn has his golden moment, Dickon Tarly feigns to be significant, Tyrion's herat breaks a little as Lannister soldiers are reduced to ashes and Jaime's fate hangs in the balance,  and finally we see a glimpse of the Dany-Jon loving on the cave walls. 

 

This was the best episode of the season next to that one. (9/10). The season overall was 7/10

Edited August 30, 2017 by duncanthemedium

[JagLover]

10 hours ago, Consigliere said:

4/10 for the season. Weakest season of GoT saved only by a big budget.

I think for the season I would split it into two parts

First part up until 10-15 minutes into Ep 5. Reasonably logical with the only questionable decisions how quickly Highgarden was taken and how Euron seemed to be omniscent. Opens with the Frey's being wiped out, has some character reunions, ends with the great Spoils of war and then aftermarth in the next episode. Maybe 8-9

Second part when Tyrions "plan" is unveiled and everyone says OK then, rather than tell him to stop drinking so much. This is also when D&D developed their winterfell "plot" with the false conflict and "cunning twist" when it was to trap LF all along. I would really struggle to rate this part. For how disappointed it made me feel considerable less than 5. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by JagLover

[Gargarax]

8 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

Sadly will never find out what was going to be in the books.

As for GRRM makes very mistakes with plot development?  The reason the story has got away from him is because of some major flaws in the plot developments.  In fact the reason why we'll never see the complete series in book form is because of his poor plot planning and character arcs.

Martin also has years to write, scrap, re-write, scrap, tell everyone that he is only working on TWOW and nothing else, edit wildcards, open a cinema, write some more TWOW, scrap, re-write, scrap, do a talkshow, decide to write and release yet another world building book most people don't give a toss about, do a bit more wild card editing, write some more TWOW, scrap etc. etc.  The show HAS to be done yearly.  The time constraint is much more aggressive.  If only the show runners had had the complete source material to work from......

You are entitled to that opinion - but it's really not more than that: a subjective opinion that you have refused to provide a good source for, although you claim there are tons of great essays in the net. I've studied and taught literature for over 15 years now, and fail to see the flaws you see. I've read a lot of stuff by literture-savvy people on GoT, who come to different conclusions that you, based on objective, criteria.

The whole Martin hate is also uncalled for. Gaiman had it right: Martin's not your bitch. He is not obliged to finish the books within certain amount of time; if he feels like having other project on the side, good for him. Do I wish he would work on TWOW more often? Sure. Do I think it was a mistake to push for the TV series without finishing first? I do. But it was a pretty human decision; he's not the youngest anymore and probably liked the idea of seeing one of his works put onto the screen; it's not like that opportunity comes along often. Could Martin have forseen that once D&D go off the source material, the show's plot would become so incredibly bad? How could he have? Nobody expected the show ever to fall that low after S1.

There is no indication that TWOW will never be out. I'm fine waiting another five years, if necessary. If is nearly as great a piece of literature as AFFC and TWOW was (read them combined, it's a revelation - all pacing weakness odd jumps disappear), it will be worth the wait. Working fast on any piece of art, particularly literature, can damage quality. The show has lost it's chance to have any meaningful legacy, Martin still has that chance.

[Ser Gareth]

1 hour ago, Gargarax said:

You are entitled to that opinion - but it's really not more than that: a subjective opinion that you have refused to provide a good source for, although you claim there are tons of great essays in the net. I've studied and taught literature for over 15 years now, and fail to see the flaws you see. I've read a lot of stuff by literture-savvy people on GoT, who come to different conclusions that you, based on objective, criteria.

The whole Martin hate is also uncalled for. Gaiman had it right: Martin's not your bitch. He is not obliged to finish the books within certain amount of time; if he feels like having other project on the side, good for him. Do I wish he would work on TWOW more often? Sure. Do I think it was a mistake to push for the TV series without finishing first? I do. But it was a pretty human decision; he's not the youngest anymore and probably liked the idea of seeing one of his works put onto the screen; it's not like that opportunity comes along often. Could Martin have forseen that once D&D go off the source material, the show's plot would become so incredibly bad? How could he have? Nobody expected the show ever to fall that low after S1.

There is no indication that TWOW will never be out. I'm fine waiting another five years, if necessary. If is nearly as great a piece of literature as AFFC and TWOW was (read them combined, it's a revelation - all pacing weakness odd jumps disappear), it will be worth the wait. Working fast on any piece of art, particularly literature, can damage quality. The show has lost it's chance to have any meaningful legacy, Martin still has that chance.

Clearly we'll never agree on this.  As far as I am concerned if sells an incomplete product they have a moral obligation to ensure that the product is at some point completed.

And I have read them combined (The Ball of Beasts) and they're still terrible.  If you seriously believe that AFFC/ADWD are great pieces of literature and you teach literature?!  Jeez....

[StepStark]

53 minutes ago, Gargarax said:

Nobody expected the show ever to fall that low after S1.

I do agree with practically everything you say, except this line, because there were viewers even then who saw how poor D&Dare as showrunners and writers. I don't know if that can be found today, because it all happened more than 6 years ago in the old site, but there were people who correctly observed that even in season 1 many changes to the story were made without a good reason and always for the worse result than what would've been had they kept closer to the original story. Just the most obvious example, turning Littlefinger into a Bond villain who doesn't even hide his vile intentions made Ned Stark only look like a moron, and truth be told after season 1 there was a flood of internet memes about "stupid Ned Stark". Also, Renly was ruined practically from the start, instead of a powerful knight he is in the novels he was turned into a wuss who's afraid of blood. And not to mention Cersei with her mysterious first child, that scene where she tell Cat about that baby is practically the source of every problem Cersei continues to create in the show. If you look at D&D's scenes from season 1, most of them were as ridiculous as season 7 stuff. And season 2 was even worse, with Talisa and everything else.

I blame Martin only for one thing: he should've test them much more. If it's true that he only asked them one test question (who is Jon's mother), then he really contributed a lot to this mess. Any fool could read about R+L=J on internet, so their answer really meant nothing. In fact, after Troy, which is another failed adaptation penned by Benioff, I'm surprised Martin even agreed to have that dinner with them.

[StepStark]

5 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

And I have read them combined (The Ball of Beasts) and they're still terrible.  If you seriously believe that AFFC/ADWD are great pieces of literature and you teach literature?!  Jeez....

I'm pretty sure that you didn't even read the books. All your points about them are just copy-paste of the most common complaints some readers have already been posting for years (like the one about Martin losing control of the story - no he didn't, but that's not an argument you're qualified in any way to participate in, mostly because you'd have to read ASOIAF first). And I'm also pretty certain that nobody would reread not one but two books he strongly disliked the first time. So you can just drop the act. You obviously don't know much about storytelling or literature or art in general ("high art can be really boring"), all you do is repeating things other people already said without even realizing their meaning. And on top of everything, you're mocking other posters who clearly know a lot more about literature and TV than you ever will, which is just pathetic.

[StepStark]

12 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

Watch them, I assure you you will see what I mean. The tracking shot of True Detective is my favorite ever by the way, but well, Season 1 of True Detective might be my favorite piece of cinema.

This is the tracking shot I was talking about, from 3:02 to 4:02 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsFeIVJfKsA

I think that GOT is possibly the stupidest piece of television I've ever seen (although, I have to say that I successfully avoid nonsense like True Blood or Homeland, thanks to the fact that I watch almost everything with a time distance and after the buzz came down). But I don't think that GOT fans are stupid. People enjoy things for different reasons and I fully recognize that. And you seem to be articulate enough, so I have to ask you: how can you love True Detective and GOT at the same time? I'm genuinely curious, really. Because the way I see it, TD S1 is really among the best shows ever, right up there with The Sopranos, Breaking Bad and The Wire. How do you compare those dialogues and scripts, with lines like "It all comes to cocks at the end" and "His joke wasn't even good"?

And how do you compare TD with scenes like Battle of the Bastards? Like you, I think it was masterfully filmed, but it changes nothing of the fact that it was terribly written: just look at the video you posted, all three of them (Ramsay, Jon and Rickon) act completely unrealistically, because nobody with at least one brain cell would let go his prized captive right before the battle (Ramsay), or run in the only way Ramsay can actually hit you (Rickon), or charge alone into an entire army (Jon).

[plastic throne]

1 hour ago, StepStark said:

And how do you compare TD with scenes like Battle of the Bastards? Like you, I think it was masterfully filmed, but it changes nothing of the fact that it was terribly written: just look at the video you posted

Indeed, Battle of the Bastards was an insult to my intelligence. I cancelled HBO right after and I'm still pissed about it.

Horrendous, 1/10 episode, a prime example how writing can destroy everything that other departments build.

Edited August 30, 2017 by plastic throne

[StepStark]

17 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

Indeed, Battle of the Bastards was an insult to my intelligence. I cancelled HBO right after and I'm still pissed about it.

Horrendous, 1/10 episode, a prime example how writing can destroy everything that other departments build.

Not to mention those piles of dead bodies on the battlefield. Just unbelievably stupid, really.

[Ser Quork]

9 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Not to mention those piles of dead bodies on the battlefield. Just unbelievably stupid, really.

All choreographed to fall in the same place to make a wall.  It was comedy worthy of Mel Brooks.

[plastic throne]

30 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

All choreographed to fall in the same place to make a wall.  It was comedy worthy of Mel Brooks.

I see where you're coming from, but I did not laugh at all. I was shocked, I was angry and felt insulted. How can D&D still be in the entertainment business after this fiasco is beyond me.

[Gargarax]

5 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

Clearly we'll never agree on this.  As far as I am concerned if sells an incomplete product they have a moral obligation to ensure that the product is at some point completed.

And I have read them combined (The Ball of Beasts) and they're still terrible.  If you seriously believe that AFFC/ADWD are great pieces of literature and you teach literature?!  Jeez....

Who's condescending and intellectually superior now ... Yes, I do think it's quite a literary accomplishment. I'm not saying it's Shakespeare or Dickens or Faulkner. But it ticks a lot of boxes of what makes good storytelling - a lot of boxes. The show doesn't tick one. No, we'll never agree. You'll keep claiming stuff that you then avoid backing up - you've done it for four pages in this forum. You evade critical questions and just keep asserting the same unsupported assumptions. Clearly, it's a waste of time for the two of us to discuss any further. If I want nonversations, I'd still rather watch Game of Thrones.

[Akal Colzet]

5 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

Clearly we'll never agree on this.  As far as I am concerned if sells an incomplete product they have a moral obligation to ensure that the product is at some point completed.

And I have read them combined (The Ball of Beasts) and they're still terrible.  If you seriously believe that AFFC/ADWD are great pieces of literature and you teach literature?!  Jeez....

This is the people that have read the books, watched the show and bought the merchandise while spreading the word about the saga. This is the people who have made him rich and famous. I agree that he should sit down and give the readers closure, not because he has to, he doesn't but because it's the decent thing to do.

[Ser Gareth]

50 minutes ago, Gargarax said:

Who's condescending and intellectually superior now ... Yes, I do think it's quite a literary accomplishment. I'm not saying it's Shakespeare or Dickens or Faulkner. But it ticks a lot of boxes of what makes good storytelling - a lot of boxes. The show doesn't tick one. No, we'll never agree. You'll keep claiming stuff that you then avoid backing up - you've done it for four pages in this forum. You evade critical questions and just keep asserting the same unsupported assumptions. Clearly, it's a waste of time for the two of us to discuss any further. If I want nonversations, I'd still rather watch Game of Thrones.

My apologies, that was small of me.

[johndance]

12 hours ago, Dragonslack said:

Last week the rate thread had better dialogue than the episode, and I understood the positions. Same compared this show with a huge budget and backstory and fantastic things to ordinary cheap shows, and other noticed the tremendous bad writing.

This week I do not understand why the scoring is higher. A 4 to be generous.

The fantastic/FX this episode was nothing compared to the previous one and even less compared to the dragons munching on lannisters. The NK riding that dragon looked like a scooby doo cartoon, embarrassing. Obviously their money and time was mostly spent on the main dragon. The skeleton was not scary at all, undead queensguard could eat it for lunch.

How can anybody give that mess of a plot a perfect 10!?

The dialogue was not witty or clever at all, it was terrible. Previous episode at least it was entertaining at times. Now it has become monty python. 

 

 

I personally could not disagree more. I thought the dialogue was excellent. Tyrion and Cersei, Jaime and Cersei, and Jon and Daenerys in the dragon pit were great. How about Theon and Jon in the Dragonstone throne room? Really well done imo. I loved every scene in this episode. That's why I gave it a 10. As to how anyone could give it a 10, the ratings have twice as many 10s as any other score so ask the majority of posters here and they'll explain. 

[Dragonslack]

Must be a negative because despite all the good will from the beginning it is starting to feel like transformers or a shield or gotham, in that I'm not anxious at all to see the last season, meh. If not for the momentum of the show, lots of people talking and seeing, if this was season 1, it might have been canceled by the end of the year.

For the budget and material I expected much better. I would say give this money and time and HBO leeway to 10 different shows and 8 of them at least would be much better compared to this season.

[johndance]

4 hours ago, StepStark said:

Not to mention those piles of dead bodies on the battlefield. Just unbelievably stupid, really.

You do realize that this was taken from an actual battle that happened in history right? I don't have the name of it but it's been said several times by the director of the episode + D&D they based the mountain of dead bodies off of descriptions of actual battles that took place. 

[Dragonslack]

3 minutes ago, johndance said:

I personally could not disagree more. I thought the dialogue was excellent. Tyrion and Cersei, Jaime and Cersei, and Jon and Daenerys in the dragon pit were great. How about Theon and Jon in the Dragonstone throne room? Really well done imo. I loved every scene in this episode. That's why I gave it a 10. As to how anyone could give it a 10, the ratings have twice as many 10s as any other score so ask the majority of posters here and they'll explain. 

I have already explained, their policy, "payout moments", fan service, it's like telling a genie what would you like to see happen? What would make you laugh or jump for joy? Like memes. Seems they were right, DD, that is all that matters, kudos. I still think it tarnishes it long term. It's full on trope mode, hollywoodesc. Ned would never die this season, he would prevail against all odds, even if he had to come back from the dead.

The dialogue did not make any sense, they performed as a caricature of themselves.

How awkward for them to just stand there waiting for tyrion to most likely die. Why didnt evil cerci just blow them all up? 

How pathetic of cerci to always make threats but nobody ever dies. 

Three or four knees to the groin is more than a monty python sketch would do.

 

 

 

 

[StepStark]

12 minutes ago, johndance said:

You do realize that this was taken from an actual battle that happened in history right? I don't have the name of it but it's been said several times by the director of the episode + D&D they based the mountain of dead bodies off of descriptions of actual battles that took place. 

No, it never happened like that. D&D read about dead bodies making problems for those who are still fighting on the battlefield, which is realistic of course, but then they came up with the wall of piled bodies, which is just absurd. You do realize the difference between realistic, historical and logical fact, and something that is blown out of every proportion to the point of absurdity?

And of course, as incompetent as they are, D&D even used that absurd wall of bodies as a plot point, which traps Jon and his army. Totally ridiculous on every level.