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How would you rate episode 707?  

423 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best?

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      27
    • 2
      26
    • 3
      25
    • 4
      26
    • 5
      31
    • 6
      24
    • 7
      34
    • 8
      58
    • 9
      67
    • 10
      105


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14 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

I come from a family that really appreciates literature, music,... Actually everything in life, food, drinks, art,... We're true hedonists :)

For me, to give a series/movie a 10/10 rating, it has to be something really really spectacular not just in terms of visuals, music, acting, story... But it needs to have a long, if not everlasting influence on me. To open a subject, to make me think, make me feel or challenge in some ways. ASOIAF, though it has its negatives, was up there. Characters, their interaction and development of those is really where GRRM is a true master and why this story caught my eyes at first. And then I really liked attention to detail; it really payed off (first few seasons), so I choose to read books and oh my did I like them very much because of it. Now, suddenly attention to detail is not preferred anymore due to popping up whole lot of questions that sadly cannot be answered. At least not within the frame show hands it to you.

Was I ever entertained sometimes by a bad show/music performance/movie? Sure, but I'd never gave it a 10/10 rating because of it, because I understand the limitations of it, and I cannot ignore that. You watch, you forget, that doesn't deserve a fantastic rating. Example, it's like going to a concert (let's say Justin Bieber, though there's no way I'd go there, not even if you pay me), I get smashed and have a good time with my friends, OK, I had a good time but is he a 10 stars artist I'd recommend listening to? Nah.

See,  I don't think GRRM is a true master.  The tale (as are most) is fatally flawed in a few areas that means it will never be a classic book series, especially with what he put out in AFFC and ADWD.

But like it or not the TV show will be regarded as a classic because it's become a global cultural phenomenon and is the first of its kind, on TV, in terms of the visuals.  Soon it will be common place but AGOT will always go down as being one of the first.

 

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35 minutes ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

I have been hearing this over and over again, and if D&D are intending to do "fan service" I think they are failing miserably because what captures the fans is logic, political game, good dialogues.. This is well reflected in the scores that we see here. Spoils of War, was the best of the Season, while Eastwatch and Beyound the wall received poor scores. 

other than Cleganebowl, which became a favorite, I think the best service to the fans would be to have attention for details, coherence, realism, politics and complex characters.

Tyrion was perhaps the favorite character from the fans... at least was the character that every fan liked (differently than Jon and Danerys who has their "haters"). Look what they did with him his complexity was deconstructed every season bacame more and more simple.. is this fan service?

No, that's what appeases book fanatics.  Especially if the screenplay follows the relevant book very closely.

The fact is viewing figures have soared the last few seasons during a period of the show that a lot of book fans are disgruntled with it.

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22 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

See,  I don't think GRRM is a true master.  The tale (as are most) is fatally flawed in a few areas that means it will never be a classic book series, especially with what he put out in AFFC and ADWD.

But like it or not the TV show will be regarded as a classic because it's become a global cultural phenomenon and is the first of its kind, on TV, in terms of the visuals.  Soon it will be common place but AGOT will always go down as being one of the first.

I did point out specifically - of character development. One of the best. Ofc he has some flaws, never denied that.

And I don't think the show will go down into history, tbh. Like everything in pop culture, this show will be forgotten as well. 5-10 years from now? Don't know, but I am sure, it will be. Only quality prevails on the long run and as it seems for HBO, they only care about the short one, that is quarterly earnings.

43 minutes ago, Vibalist said:

Yes, because what fans want on a surface level is something that makes them feel good. Seeing Tyrion become a hero feels good, reuniting the Starks feels good, seeing Daenerys come out of nowhere yet again with her dragons to turn the tide of a battle feels good.... initially, and especially if you watch the show with other people, where everyone is hyping each other up.

It's only when you reflect on the plot inconsistencies you begin to dislike the story, but HBO isn't interested in the type of viewer who does that, they're interested in the initial hype factor, the spectacle, the ratings. And the show delivers on that front. Watch the hundreds of reaction videos where people cheer when Arya kills Frey or when Daenerys burns the Lannister army. GoT is a pop culture phenomenon now, with millions of fans who could give less of a fuck about the larger themes and the deconstruction of traditional fantasy, and only want the epicness.

+1

 

Edited by plastic throne

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32 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

I come from a family that really appreciates literature, music,... Actually everything in life, food, drinks, art,... We're true hedonists :)

For me, to give a series/movie a 10/10 rating, it has to be something really really spectacular not just in terms of visuals, music, acting, story... But it needs to have a long, if not everlasting influence on me. To open a subject, to make me think, make me feel or challenge in some ways. ASOIAF, though it has its negatives, was up there. Characters, their interaction and development of those is really where GRRM is a true master and why this story caught my eyes at first. And then I really liked attention to detail; it really payed off (first few seasons), so I choose to read books and oh my did I like them very much because of it. Now, suddenly attention to detail is not preferred anymore due to popping up whole lot of questions that sadly cannot be answered. At least not within the frame show hands it to you.

Was I ever entertained sometimes by a bad show/music performance/movie? Sure, but I'd never gave it a 10/10 rating because of it, because I understand the limitations of it, and I cannot ignore that. You watch, you forget, that doesn't deserve a fantastic rating. Example, it's like going to a concert (let's say Justin Bieber, though there's no way I'd go there, not even if you pay me), I get smashed and have a good time with my friends, OK, I had a good time but is he a 10 stars artist I'd recommend listening to? Nah.

Thanks for this post, I couldn't agree more.

I usually like a food analogy to explain the same. Sometimes a greasy burger from a fast food chain is a satisfying meal: Sometimes I prefer the greasy burger to a fancy alternative. But never would I say that a burger is by any objective standard great food. It will always be garbage, no matter how much I enjoy it. If GoT didn't pretend to be more than enjoyable escapist fantasy, I might like it more. But it does, and it needs to be called out for it. It's perfectly okay to enjoy watching it - but saying it tells a well-written story is an insult to storytelling. Just like somebody who makes a greasy burger will never be a chef in anybody's book, the writers of GoT will never be considered real writers by anybody who the slightest clue about the art of writing stories.

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14 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:
51 minutes ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

I have been hearing this over and over again, and if D&D are intending to do "fan service" I think they are failing miserably because what captures the fans is logic, political game, good dialogues..

No, that's what appeases book fanatics.

This is priceless! So, if you like logic and good dialogue, you're a book fanatic apparently.

I'm glad to be one then.

19 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

See,  I don't think GRRM is a true master.

Nah, he's just a book fanatic. You know, logical plot and good dialogue and all that jazz.

21 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

The tale (as are most) is fatally flawed in a few areas that means it will never be a classic book series, especially with what he put out in AFFC and ADWD.

This is also rich, coming from a man who previously stated that:

High art can be boring as hell.

The more you explain your positions, the more I'm glad we disagree over everything.

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Just now, Gargarax said:

Thanks for this post, I couldn't agree more.

I usually like a food analogy to explain the same. Sometimes a greasy burger from a fast food chain is a satisfying meal: Sometimes I prefer the greasy burger to a fancy alternative. But never would I say that a burger is by any objective standard great food. It will always be garbage, no matter how much I enjoy it. If GoT didn't pretend to be more than enjoyable escapist fantasy, I might like it more. But it does, and it needs to be called out for it. It's perfectly okay to enjoy watching it - but saying it tells a well-written story is an insult to storytelling. Just like somebody who makes a greasy burger will never be a chef in anybody's book, the writers of GoT will never be considered real writers by anybody who the slightest clue about the art of writing stories.

Yes my friend, an even better example I am sure everyone can relate with :)

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2 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

I did point out specifically - of character development. One of the best. Ofc he has some flaws, never denied that.

And I don't think the show will go down into history, tbh. Like everything in pop culture, this show will be forgotten as well. 5-10 years from now? Don't know, but I am sure, it will be. Only quality prevails on the long run and as it seems for HBO, they only care about the short one, that is quarterly earnings.

+1

I don't think he is a master of character development either.  E.g. in ADWD Tyrion, Jon and Dany's development from the first three books may as well not happened.  Their personalities have completely changed.  You could excuse Tyrion for having some kind trauma disorder but in reality because we see his inner thoughts we can clearly see that's not the case.

I can't see the show being forgotten like that.  And as I said it's a trailblazer.  And they're going to milk that cash cow with the spin offs.

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6 minutes ago, StepStark said:

This is priceless! So, if you like logic and good dialogue, you're a book fanatic apparently.

I'm glad to be one then.

Nah, he's just a book fanatic. You know, logical plot and good dialogue and all that jazz.

This is also rich, coming from a man who previously stated that:

The more you explain your positions, the more I'm glad we disagree over everything.

See NOW you're becoming boring and less amusing.  Why?  Because you're adopting spin tactics which for me is the last refuge of someone who cannot back up their opinions with logic.

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34 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

See,  I don't think GRRM is a true master.  The tale (as are most) is fatally flawed in a few areas that means it will never be a classic book series, especially with what he put out in AFFC and ADWD.

But like it or not the TV show will be regarded as a classic because it's become a global cultural phenomenon and is the first of its kind, on TV, in terms of the visuals.  Soon it will be common place but AGOT will always go down as being one of the first.

 

Many things are global, cultural phenomenons. Transformers, for instance. I'm pretty sure those movies will never go down in history as anything.

it's true, however, that the tv series is groundbreaking in terms of visuals, and will probably be remembered for that. But the story isn't going to hold up to any level of deeper analysis. When you look back at it in twenty years, you won't remember it as a classic, but as, precisely, a phenomenon.

The cultural impact of the show is what we will discuss in the future. Not the show itself, which will rightly be remembered as a good story that turned into schlock halfway through.

Edited by Vibalist

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24 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

See,  I don't think GRRM is a true master.  The tale (as are most) is fatally flawed in a few areas that means it will never be a classic book series, especially with what he put out in AFFC and ADWD.

But like it or not the TV show will be regarded as a classic because it's become a global cultural phenomenon and is the first of its kind, on TV, in terms of the visuals.  Soon it will be common place but AGOT will always go down as being one of the first.

The problem is: I haven't read a single serious analysis of AFFC or ADWD that showed me why it's flawed. I have read plenty of great essays that showed what a great and literary book AFFC is (By the way: read the two combined and it's a masterpiece). And it's the same with the show: There are great analyses of academic quality that show why the show is flawed, but I haven't yet read a single thorough defense of the showthat was based on objective criteria. Maybe that's my bubble, but I'd really like somebody to post a link to a site where the positive reactions to the show are discussed as in-depth as the critical reactions are.

And yes, somebody who tells critical voices to leave the thread, because they spread negativity, is whining. I don't want to defend the few posters who rate episodes a 1 based on very selective criteria. But the people who spread negativity here are mostly those who can't deal with the fact that some people like the show less than they do, and feel the need to attack those people and push them into Rant&Rave thread. This is quite simply immature and silly. I'm perfectly fine with people with people hating shows I like - so why can't you be as well?

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9 minutes ago, Gargarax said:

Thanks for this post, I couldn't agree more.

I usually like a food analogy to explain the same. Sometimes a greasy burger from a fast food chain is a satisfying meal: Sometimes I prefer the greasy burger to a fancy alternative. But never would I say that a burger is by any objective standard great food. It will always be garbage, no matter how much I enjoy it. If GoT didn't pretend to be more than enjoyable escapist fantasy, I might like it more. But it does, and it needs to be called out for it. It's perfectly okay to enjoy watching it - but saying it tells a well-written story is an insult to storytelling. Just like somebody who makes a greasy burger will never be a chef in anybody's book, the writers of GoT will never be considered real writers by anybody who the slightest clue about the art of writing stories.

Not in my opinion.  Both the books and the TV show are completely unrealistic fantasy.  Character interactions and conversations in both are unrealistic.  The characters are, as with most stores, hammed up.  Character responses to situations are unrealistic because realistic reactions are usually dull etc.

One of the two things that really annoys me (book and show) is how they've got this reputation that they're breaking tropes (they're not) and how no one is safe based purely on Eddard getting killed in the first book/series.  Since then all the other major characters have pretty much survived (obviously not Catelyn in the show).  Even the major supporting cast characters from season one have pretty much survived with the exception of Robb.

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4 minutes ago, Vibalist said:

Many things are global, cultural phenomenons. Transformers, for instance. I'm pretty sure those movies will never go down in history as anything.

it's true, however, that the tv series is groundbreaking in terms of visuals, and will probably be remembered for that. But the story isn't going to hold up to any level of deeper analysis. When you look back at it in twenty years, you won't remember it as a classic, but as, precisely, a phenomenon.

The cultural impact of the show is what we will discuss in the future. Not the show itself, which will rightly be remembered as a good story that turned into schlock halfway through.

Agreed on the movies.  But not the toy.

I agree that the actual tale itself won't go down as a classic.  It's a good story, but not a great one.  The main thing it will be remembered for is the unusual circumstance of being based on a book series that never completed.

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3 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Not in my opinion.  Both the books and the TV show are completely unrealistic fantasy.  Character interactions and conversations in both are unrealistic.  The characters are, as with most stores, hammed up.  Character responses to situations are unrealistic because realistic reactions are usually dull etc.

Are you sure this description really means something? It could be applied to Orwell's 1984, to Shakespeare's King Lear, to Dicken's Great Expectations - and it would be just as true or untrue discribing those. Is it possible that what you describe, is, what was it called ... fiction?

Forgive my sarcasm - but really, I'd love to read a serious piece on why the show-writing is good or Martin's writing is bad. I'd gladly read that, with an open mind and with interest. What I don't want to read are subjective statements about how AFFC is bad because nothing happened (which is what the usual criticism often comes down to). To compare book dialogue and show dialogue and come away with the conclusion that both can be criticised for being "unrealistic" seems so absurd to me that discussing it does not seem worth the time.

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7 minutes ago, Gargarax said:

The problem is: I haven't read a single serious analysis of AFFC or ADWD that showed me why it's flawed. I have read plenty of great essays that showed what a great and literary book AFFC is (By the way: read the two combined and it's a masterpiece). And it's the same with the show: There are great analyses of academic quality that show why the show is flawed, but I haven't yet read a single thorough defense of the showthat was based on objective criteria. Maybe that's my bubble, but I'd really like somebody to post a link to a site where the positive reactions to the show are discussed as in-depth as the critical reactions are.

And yes, somebody who tells critical voices to leave the thread, because they spread negativity, is whining. I don't want to defend the few posters who rate episodes a 1 based on very selective criteria. But the people who spread negativity here are mostly those who can't deal with the fact that some people like the show less than they do, and feel the need to attack those people and push them into Rant&Rave thread. This is quite simply immature and silly. I'm perfectly fine with people with people hating shows I like - so why can't you be as well?

Wrong forum for it and to be fair it's meant to be the 5 year bridging book and isn't finished yet but in my opinion the flaws are:

1) It hasn't covered the 5 years.  Which means we all know there needs to be at least two or three more bridging books to bring it to the place where the 5 year gap would have started from (and apparently that is required to ensure the characters are sufficiently aged up).

2) They killed the momentum of the story.

3) Most of the events in the books could have easily been covered through hearsay.

4) Key characters had personality transplants and lost all sense of wisdom, despite exhibiting it in earlier books.

5) It continued the ridiculous amount of chance encounters on the road/in cities.

6) ADWD especially didn't even feel like an ASOIAF book in terms of writing style and content.

7) There was an awful lot of repetition in both the prose and story telling.

8) Many of the arcs in the two volumes simply didn't need to happen and were clearly just filler.

 

As for people hating the show?  I am fine with that too (although it bemuses me why they watch it then but it should also teach me the level of individual I am debating with if they hate something and yet still put themselves through it).  What I am not fine with them doing is constantly being on people's backs, nit picking over trivial things and trying to come across as intellectually superior.

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8 minutes ago, Gargarax said:

Are you sure this description really means something? It could be applied to Orwell's 1984, to Shakespeare's King Lear, to Dicken's Great Expectations - and it would be just as true or untrue discribing those. Is it possible that what you describe, is, what was it called ... fiction?

Forgive my sarcasm - but really, I'd love to read a serious piece on why the show-writing is good or Martin's writing is bad. I'd gladly read that, with an open mind and with interest. What I don't want to read are subjective statements about how AFFC is bad because nothing happened (which is what the usual criticism often comes down to). To compare book dialogue and show dialogue and come away with the conclusion that both can be criticised for being "unrealistic" seems so absurd to me that discussing it does not seem worth the time.

There's already plenty out there about why GRRM's isn't great (it's not bad, just over rated by a portion of fanatical ASOIAF readers).  As for the show writing being good?  It wouldn't be popular if it was bad.  It's very rare that a movie/TV adaptation of a novel is better than the novel.  There is no doubt that ASOIAF (first three novels) is way way way above that of the show's adaptation.  But the fact is the show's dialogue and story telling is nowhere near as bad as the "haters" try to make out to brainwash those that enjoy it into hating it.

And of course the reason why the show had to come up with it's own stuff in the first place was because they bought into the whole series being completed in time and it wasn't.  Of course GRRM is better at writing than D&D.  If only GRRM had actually fulfilled his end of the bargain.

Edited by Ser Gareth
Added extra comments.

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3 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

As for people hating the show?  I am fine with that too (although it bemuses me why they watch it then but it should also teach me the level of individual I am debating with if they hate something and yet still put themselves through it).  What I am not fine with them doing is constantly being on people's backs, nit picking over trivial things and trying to come across as intellectually superior.

Being bemused by something totally understandable, that has been explained well a zillion times in these threads, is why some posters seem to think you are trying to come across as intellectually superior.

I'll gladly tell you why I watch it although I dislike the majority of scenes: Because it's interesting to disect something that doesn't work and by doing so find out why it doesn't. I have a better understanding of storytelling by seeing how GoT does it badly, and I can actually use GoT in teaching to explain how not to tell a story. Seeing GoT fail at storytelling is enlightening and enriching, which seems to me just as valuable a reason to watch it as simply being entertained by it is.

I agree that posters who criticise those who rate high can be annoying - but you are doing the same bloody thing. It's just as petty.

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6 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

There's already plenty out there about why GRRM's isn't great (it's not bad, just over rated by a portion of fanatical ASOIAF readers).

I dare you to provide one link to such a piece.

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6 minutes ago, Gargarax said:

Being bemused by something totally understandable, that has been explained well a zillion times in these threads, is why some posters seem to think you are trying to come across as intellectually superior.

I'll gladly tell you why I watch it although I dislike the majority of scenes: Because it's interesting to disect something that doesn't work and by doing so find out why it doesn't. I have a better understanding of storytelling by seeing how GoT does it badly, and I can actually use GoT in teaching to explain how not to tell a story. Seeing GoT fail at storytelling is enlightening and enriching, which seems to me just as valuable a reason to watch it as simply being entertained by it is.

I agree that posters who criticise those who rate high can be annoying - but you are doing the same bloody thing. It's just as petty.

I still don't get that.  Wasting literally hours of your life doing that makes little sense to me.

But I do agree that AGOT is teaching us how not to tell a story.  And by AGOT I mean ASOIAF.  GRRM lost control of his story and D&D have not done an optimum job fixing GRRM's mess.  But as they aren't as good as GRRM (who has completely gone off the rails himself) it's no surprise to me and I just enjoy the show for what it is.

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7 minutes ago, Gargarax said:

I dare you to provide one link to such a piece.

There have been shit loads over the years.  I know because I used to be like you, defending GRRM over pretty much everything.  But I am not going to spend my time trawling through archives trying to find articles on it!

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