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40 minutes ago, A Bong of Ice and Fire said:

 

People forget that Petyr only betrayed Ned after Ned refused Petyr's proposal to seize Joffrey and take power.  Petyr actually tried to help Ned, which he tried to explain to Cat in season 2.  When Ned asked Petyr to bribe the Gold Cloaks to support him, there was no way Petyr was going to go along with that stupid plan. It would have been suicidal.  Ned screwed Ned, not Petyr.

Whatever your thoughts on LF betraying Ned, when it comes to Sansa herself there is also the fact that LF had the power to smuggle her out of KL from Day 1 and could have done so anytime. But instead he was happy to let her be abused for years by Joffrey and Cersei without once stepping in until it suited his own personal ambition to get her out of there. 

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17 minutes ago, aryana said:

When did Ser Robert Strong become Ser Gregor? Or was he always Gregor on the show?

It's always been Gregor in the show.  They didn't even bother trying to present him as Robert Strong.  

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22 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Whatever your thoughts on LF betraying Ned, when it comes to Sansa herself there is also the fact that LF had the power to smuggle her out of KL from Day 1 and could have done so anytime. But instead he was happy to let her be abused for years by Joffrey and Cersei without once stepping in until it suited his own personal ambition to get her out of there. 

Hear, hear!

Dismantle them, yes! You're good at this.

And love GRRM for leading readers there.

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I just saw last episode and loved it!! 

And now we have to wait a year again :o

Seems to me that the next season is only focussed on the big war up north, lots of action less talking

 

Just saw a trailer of a possible spin-off serie, is probably fake but what if it was true :wub:

should be a good project for the black hole we probably will have after season 8

 

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20 hours ago, iprayiam said:

Poor Aegon 1. Imagine if your dad divorced your mom, disowned you, and then named his new kid your name on top of it. What a kick in the nuts

Yep, no two ways about it, Rhaegar was kind of an a**hole... 

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Too me i think Dany and Jon hook up is not so grosse because 1 they dont know and b what are they suppose to do about those feelings. Its not like they were raised together. If Dany gets pregnant there is no way jon will turn his back on her and a baby. Sure Jon will need time to figure out how too handle things. But Jon is not some punk who purposely would hook up and then dump someone not after how he lost ygritte for nothing.

 

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1 hour ago, #teamNightking said:

Yep, no two ways about it, Rhaegar was kind of an a**hole... 

It's probably the greatest point that sums up the story.  Rhaegar and Lyanna may have been in love but what they did or rather how they did it was selfish and look what it caused. Rhaegar may have had a more intricate plan but the result demonstrates the flaws in that plan. I suppose we may not know all of the details yet but still it seems ill-thought. 

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20 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

D&D are all about breaking the internet. What's more likely to accomplish that goal, revealing the worst kept secret in fandom, or revealing that the worst kept secret in fandom is wrong?

D&D are also about making a TV series and they clearly recognize that the plot is complex enough without additional complications. 

Not showing the details of Roberts rebellion means that GRRM has a huge amount of material that will be new in the books.

12 hours ago, Lee Chapman said:

If she was reading the original then wouldn't the wee beasties start eating her flesh?

I think Sam would keep the infested copies away from the baby and her.

Exactly, Gilly was proof-reading the copy Sam made.

8 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

 

Technically, in the patriarchal feudal society that is Westeros, Lyanna's permission is irrelevant. Rhaegar took Lyanna without Rickard's permission (as far as we've been told in the books). That's all that matters - regardless of Lyanna's feelings, whether she went willingly or not, without Rickard's permission it IS, legally, technically, kidnapping and rape should he choose to pursue it as such. Which he did. 

Yup, there are all sorts of reasons why R+L=J is a silly solution. It is far too obvious for a start. There is no suspense or surprise. We are pretty much told about it in book 1 in the fever dream.

It is a solution that is entirely based on modern 21st century ideas. And that is what D&D are serving up. 

There are a whole sequence of missing pieces in the TV series, all of which are obviously important in the books.

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22 hours ago, jandslegate said:

I think Tyrion may have betrayed Dany. The first hint is Tyrion and Cersei's negotiation resolving off screen. Second is when Cersei reveals to Jaime that, surprise, she's actually still doing Cersei things. Not to mention her quip about Jaime always being the dumbest. Finally, Tyrion creeping on the boat. I know it's a long way to go before we would get proof but I just got a bad vibe from Tyrion from the Cersei meeting onward. Plus it's been posed before that Tyrion could be the third of Dany's betrayals. 

And one for gold....been my interpretation since the first tyrion chapter from adwd was previewed.

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A few more thoughts:

1. It's unlikely that Bran is gonna repeat everything he said to Sam, to Jon on camera. I think they're prepping the reveal to Jon off camera and that would suck big time. Like 70% of my emotional investment in this story hung on the excitement on Jon's reaction to hearing about his parentage and what he is. And 30% in Dany's reaction to the same info.

2. So shall we presume that LF did not write Ramsey's letter to Jon? I kinda thought it Bran would mention it after telling them about LF's betrayal of Ned Stark. 

3. "Robert's Rebellion was based on a lie", who lied though? Who said Lyanna was kidnapped and rapped? Was it Robert to get The North behind him? But the North was already behind him after King Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon Stark.. Was it Ned's lie? That's pretty dishonorable for Ned, considering the destruction and lives the war cost.

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1 hour ago, Progmetty said:

3. "Robert's Rebellion was based on a lie", who lied though? Who said Lyanna was kidnapped and rapped? Was it Robert to get The North behind him? But the North was already behind him after King Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon Stark.. Was it Ned's lie? That's pretty dishonorable for Ned, considering the destruction and lives the war cost.

We are obviously done with backstory in the show. That is all you are going to get unless HBO decides to make a show on Robert's Rebellion after the books finally come out.

As far as the books go, I think it is clear that Tywin orchestrated Roberts rebellion in the same way LF orchestrated the war of five kings. And he got what he wanted. His motive being believing Aerys cuckolded him and Tyrion is his son.

My suspicion is that Tyrion is his only legitimate son and it is Jamie and Cersei that are Targ bastards and that this will be the reason Jamie sits of the throne after killing the mad king, the prophecy being that the son will murder the king.

Looks like we are now getting a Jamie redemption arc. Faced with a choice between his sister and fighting a zombie hoard, he chooses the latter.

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12 hours ago, Super Mario said:

Well they are already in love so that's a moot point. She's also pregnant. The conversation in the Dragon Pit about Mirri Maz Duur being an unreliable source wasn't exactly subtle foreshadowing. So as long as Aejon enjoyed his romp on the boat, the best option for both at this point would be to marry. First, Aejon gets a smokin' hot wife. Second, Altho' Jon would have to sit the Iron Throne as King, Dany as Queen would be able to do what she does best, rule. Both would likely be happy with that setup. And third, the yet to be born Eddard Targaryan could be the start of a new kinder, gentler dynasty. It's a win-win.

Her pregnancy is strongly foreshadowed, but not confirmed at this point.

I have no doubt that Jon does find her "smokin' hot" and a lot lot more. But that isn't the question. It's rather whether the incest angle will be too much for him to swallow.

As for Dany, I think the Mereen arc does not show her to be a great ruler. She is good at inspiring armies to fight for her (or in the case of the Dothraki, use their superstitious views and her fire-immunity and dragons to make them think she is the most strong). She is good in inflicting massive damage in confrontations (seriously, I count the Night King to be the first opponent who has ever managed to force her to flee). But simply ruling wasn't her strong point. If Westeros at large becomes like Mereen after conquest with insurgencies all over, I do not know how good she'd be at handling that. Her "break the wheel" strategy seems to be to terrify people with her awesome weapons and forces and impose blanket changes from above in a dictatorial manner. This does not seem to show much learning from the Mereen situation. 

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On 8/27/2017 at 10:20 PM, Reisendame said:

Right?? Weird that Bran knows of Jon's parentage, but still thinks he's a bastard. 

Also: I guess Sam *was*'listening to Gilly?? That's confusing. 

It suggests that not all Bran's visions are spontaneous and instant access. Some he has to look for. Perhaps this is part of his growing into the role of being the three eyed raven that he spoke of.

 

And Sam... lol, it seems what she said eventually sunk in. Sam is a good husband/partner if nothing else.

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14 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Not only this, @the Greenleif Stark, but also because Jon has a better claim to the Throne than Dany. Dany's entire persona is built around the idea that she's the true heir to the Iron Throne (and also Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Wheels, etc...). Her understanding of Westerosi politics has grown more complex the past few seasons, and she now gets that her dad was a terrible ruler, but her starting position is still that the Iron Throne belongs to her because it belonged to her family, and that everyone else is a usurper. She won't be happy to find out that according to her  own rhetoric, it's actually Jon who should be the ruler.

And ya, Jon probably won't be super happy about the incest.

Yeah that is a PR problem for her. Dany clearly has (at least per the show) the most force at her disposal. This would be fine if conquest by overwhelming force was the justification she was using (some sort of 'right by conquest' etc.). This would, however, also justify Cersei's entire propaganda about her being a 'foreign invader'. Cersei's argument after all, in modern terms, amounts to saying that Dany is a foreign force attempting 'regime change' in Westeros on the basis of military power, and that Westerosi society should reject this. Whatever the invaders stated intentions, Westeros should take care of itself and develop on its own. This was essentially what the late Tarly was saying. If this narrative sticks, Cersei may hope that even if Dany were to win militarily she'd have a Harpy like situation all over Westeros (rather than just Mereen). Insurgencies are very hard to fight with the sorts of weapons Dany has.

Dany's claim, however is that Robert and those coming after him are usurpers. The only thing that justified their position was that they were able to momentarily force the Targaryens from power. However, using the normal calculus of Targaryen succession (which is relevant only if we grant that having the most force and ability to force other claimants away is not a legitimate reason to change eligibility) she is the rightful monarch. This portrays her as the legit. Westerosi Queen, not a foreign invader (despite her completely Essosi military). Jon would undermine this narrative severely.

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4 hours ago, EddardSnow said:

Too me i think Dany and Jon hook up is not so grosse because 1 they dont know and b what are they suppose to do about those feelings. Its not like they were raised together. If Dany gets pregnant there is no way jon will turn his back on her and a baby. Sure Jon will need time to figure out how too handle things. But Jon is not some punk who purposely would hook up and then dump someone not after how he lost ygritte for nothing.

 

Biologically Dany has roughly the same relationship with Jon on the father's side that Eddard Stark has with Jon on the mother's side. This is not going to make him too happy. If he impregnates her, things will be complex. I don't think he'll be able to abandon her. But will he be willing to go full Targ and marry her?

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1 minute ago, Hajk1984 said:

Biologically Dany has roughly the same relationship with Jon on the father's side that Eddard Stark has with Jon on the mother's side. This is not going to make him too happy. If he impregnates her, things will be complex. I don't think he'll be able to abandon her. But will he be willing to go full Targ and marry her?

 

We know that Jon is not too keen on leaving a bastard behind, but maybe his views will have changed.

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24 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

We know that Jon is not too keen on leaving a bastard behind, but maybe his views will have changed.

True, but there is a loophole in this case. Being Queen, Dany will legitimize any child she has and avoid this.

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4 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

True, but there is a loophole in this case. Being Queen, Dany will legitimize any child she has and avoid this.

That is a possibility. But from Jon's perspective, unless something has changed, or something changes, we know he does not want to leave any bastards behind. So I think he would want to take actions to prevent that from happening. That said, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that something changes. Maybe he'll think a bastard's life is better than being a trueborn heir once he gets a taste of the latter.

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2 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

That is a possibility. But from Jon's perspective, unless something has changed, or something changes, we know he does not want to leave any bastards behind. So I think he would want to take actions to prevent that from happening. That said, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that something changes. Maybe he'll think a bastard's life is better than being a trueborn heir once he gets a taste of the latter.

In this case, he may not see this as a serious issue, given that the child's mother can (and almost surely will) remove this issue immediately.

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