Discussing Sansa XXXIII: Pack survived

[falcotron]

1 hour ago, Raksha 2014 said:

Didn't Cersei mention that the Golden Company has elephants?  I foresee a big Dothraki vs. G.C. battle, horses vs. elephants; where are the Rohirrim when you need them...

On the other hand, how would a war elephant react to a wight mammoth?

[Stormourne]

5 hours ago, Pandean said:

I'm pleasantly surprised that the acting it out for LF plot was true. I didn't believe it mainly because I'm a pessimist who thinks the worst about certain people's writing capabilities....but I liked it.

 

i also liked the very end when Sansa and Arya were joking and then talked about Ned.

We were both surprised. all our arguing last week with each other and everyone around us was fun, though!

[winter daughter]

Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me."

Ned Stark

 

Winterfell plot was underwhelming but LF's death was satisfying.

I believe the Stark kids will survive the series and rebuild the North after the war.

[Maid So Fair]

This was so completely random! The LF scene could have happend anytime after season 4 and probably make more sense! Instead Sansa just got sick of him and decided to kill him, conveniently finding out about all he's ever done offscren? And then they carried on as normal as if Arya never threatened Sansa's life at all.

[Mladen]

33 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

We were both surprised. all our arguing last week with each other and everyone around us was fun, though!

This is the most hilarious about the scene... All of our arguments, every single POV we had, every point we tried to make... Who is better? Who is smarter? That was never the game. That was never the point. The point is... Pack survives.

When it comes to this, it was a satisfying end to LF. The way he begged for mercy was absolutely pleasing to see. The problem was that there wasn't build-up to the last scene, so we have to assume a lot happened off screen, which is not what we are accustomed with POV characters, I liked how cold Sansa was, how effective was she in her judgement. She understood LF's game, she understood what is Starks' real strength and she and Arya will do wonders  

[Stormourne]

1 minute ago, Risto said:

This is the most hilarious about the scene... All of our arguments, every single POV we had, every point we tried to make... Who is better? Who is smarter? That was never the game. That was never the point. The point is... Pack survives.

When it comes to this, it was a satisfying end to LF. The way he begged for mercy was absolutely pleasing to see. The problem was that there wasn't build-up to the last scene, so we have to assume a lot happened off screen, which is not what we are accustomed with POV characters, I liked how cold Sansa was, how effective was she in her judgement. She understood LF's game, she understood what is Starks' real strength and she and Arya will do wonders  

I think the point in the scene was to surprise the viewers. We all wanted them to actually show Sansa and Arya plotting, etc. but then, we would have another problem. We would see Littlefinger's death coming a mile away. Either way, I enjoyed that Arya casually slit his throat without showing emotion - they totally used the Arya from the Mercy Chapter in WoW. Arya, when she crossed a name off her list in Braavos, also was just as emotionless

[Mladen]

3 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I think the point in the scene was to surprise the viewers. We all wanted them to actually show Sansa and Arya plotting, etc. but then, we would have another problem. We would see Littlefinger's death coming a mile away. Either way, I enjoyed that Arya casually slit his throat without showing emotion - they totally used the Arya from the Mercy Chapter in WoW. Arya, when she crossed a name off her list in Braavos, also was just as emotionless

Both of them were absolutely ruthless here. Sansa started by listing all of LF's crimes, one after another, with each of it making her more resolved to end him. By the time, Bran and Arya finished, like the books said, "her skin has turned into porcelain, into ivory, into steel". When he fell on his knees and started begging, her "and yet you betrayed her/me" lines, when she thanked him for many lessons, it reminded me of Dany and Xaro Xoan in Season 2. Sansa is no longer a girl. Arya is no longer a runaway wolf child. These two women are facing winter and they will be the foundation of Winterfell. 

[Maid So Fair]

So, why was LF even a threat then? All the damage he was doing was because apparently the sisters were both dumb (and Arya vindictive enough?) enough to believe him. So they magically decided not to believe him now, so - why was it necessary to dispatch him this very moment? This entire plotline was so pointless.

[Mladen]

Just now, Maid So Fair said:

So, why was LF even a threat then? All the damage he was doing was because apparently the sisters were both dumb (and Arya vindictive enough?) enough to believe him. So they magically decided not to believe him now, so - why was it necessary to dispatch him this very moment? This entire plotline was so pointless.

I have my issues with the plotline, but I wouldn't call it pointless. This scene was needed to solidify Starks as a pack, to remove one of the bigest dangers to the peace that would be necessary in order to win the Night King. Can you imagine the damage squabbles between Starks would cause? How North divided would actually defend itself? That is why LF had to die. 

[Maid So Fair]

1 minute ago, Risto said:

I have my issues with the plotline, but I wouldn't call it pointless. This scene was needed to solidify Starks as a pack, to remove one of the bigest dangers to the peace that would be necessary in order to win the Night King. Can you imagine the damage squabbles between Starks would cause? How North divided would actually defend itself? That is why LF had to die. 

I'm all for the pack surviving, but the Starks squabbles were *invented* so that this plotline could happen. The whole conflict was completely unnecessary and only engineered to get some false tension out of WF. It would have been immensely more satisfying if LF *was* actually plotting something that would have endangered their position and they worked together to expose him. 

[Gaz0680]

36 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

This was so completely random! The LF scene could have happend anytime after season 4 and probably make more sense! Instead Sansa just got sick of him and decided to kill him, conveniently finding out about all he's ever done offscren? And then they carried on as normal as if Arya never threatened Sansa's life at all.

Because she didn't. It boggles the mind how many people missed the fact that Arya's talk about wondering what it would be like to be Lady of Winterfell and wear the pretty dresses and that all she would need for that is Sansa's face was all part of the Game of Faces and a complete lie. Arya NEVER wanted to be a Lady and Arya made NO genuine threat on Sansa's life.

If you thought she did, you interpreted that whole scene incorrectly. 

[Mladen]

Just now, Maid So Fair said:

I'm all for the pack surviving, but the Starks squabbles were *invented* so that this plotline could happen. The whole conflict was completely unnecessary and only engineered to get some false tension out of WF. It would have been immensely more satisfying if LF *was* actually plotting something that would have endangered their position and they worked together to expose him. 

I think that the differences between the sisters were not invented, and those differences could have been utilized. Perhaps not today, but at some point. That is why he had to go. He did do the plotting, but it was their bond, that pack mentality, that little thing that separates them from Lannisters and what made the two families the anthitesis of each other. He didn't count on that and he paid the price. 

[Maid So Fair]

2 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Because she didn't. It boggles the mind how many people missed the fact that Arya's talk about wondering what it would be like to be Lady of Winterfell and wear the pretty dresses and that all she would need for that is Sansa's face was all part of the Game of Faces and a complete lie. Arya NEVER wanted to be a Lady and Arya made NO genuine threat on Sansa's life.

If you thought she did, you interpreted that whole scene incorrectly.

Except, it's is the logical continuation of all her previous threatening behaviour and she goes out of her way to act menacing in that scene. It's basically a serial killer going 'lets play a little game' *creepy smile*. Even if she's only imagining, in very vivid terms, what it would be like to murder her sister that's still a terrible thing to do. And Sansa, who clearly did not want to play games, has absolutely no way of knowing this is not a genuine threat. 

D&D wrote an extremely disturbing scene and then refused to even acknowledge that.

[Gaz0680]

11 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Except, it's is the logical continuation of all her previous threatening behaviour and she goes out of her way to act menacing in that scene. It's basically a serial killer going 'lets play a little game' *creepy smile*. Even if she's only imagining, in very vivid terms, what it would be like to murder her sister that's still a terrible thing to do. And Sansa, who clearly did not want to play games, has absolutely no way of knowing this is not a genuine threat. 

D&D wrote an extremely disturbing scene and then refused to even acknowledge that.

Disturbing in your mind and some viewers, maybe, but not to all. For me it was perfectly obvious all the way through that it was all part of the game of Faces and Arya was sending Sansa a very clear message that she is on her side. Yes, it was done in a somewhat messed up way, but at no point was it actually a threat on Sansa's life.o

I still have massive problems with the whole Winterfell plot this season. It was poorly conceived, badly written and poorly explained. The actors for Arya, Sansa, Bran and Littlefinger and their all deserved much better material than what they got to work with and their characters deserved much better and more consistent, logical characterisation. It was a mess.

[Maid So Fair]

2 minutes ago, Risto said:

I think that the differences between the sisters were not invented, and those differences could have been utilized. Perhaps not today, but at some point. That is why he had to go. He did do the plotting, but it was their bond, that pack mentality, that little thing that separates them from Lannisters and what made the two families the anthitesis of each other. He didn't count on that and he paid the price. 

The thing is that there are two ways to look at it, and both make it terrible writing as either

1, there are genuine personality differences and inbred mistrust between Sansa and Arya that are a part of their characters. In that case this, the actual conflict, was left completely unresolved/resolved in a random unearned way. Or

2, the who conflict was fuelled purely by LF's machinations and there was no actual conflict between the characters of Sansa and Arya. They were therefore already onboard the whole pack survives thing, LF who hardly did anything at all was the enemy all along which they already knew and the whole exercise was pointless. 

[Maid So Fair]

3 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Disturbing in your mind and some viewers, maybe, but not to all. For me it was perfectly obvious all the way through that it was all part of the game of Faces and Arya was sending Sansa a very clear message that she is on her side. Yes, it was done in a somewhat messed up way, but at no point was it actually a threat on Sansa's life.

So rather than telling Sansa she would support her as they're family and need to stick together she accused Sansa of treason, threatened to expose said 'treason' - the punishment for which is death, accused her of trying to usurp Jon (yet another treason), blamed her for their fathers death and then went - yeah I could totally kill you right now but I haven't yet so I guess you should conclude I'm on your side! That's reasonable. 

You're right, not disturbing at all. What was I thinking. 

[Mladen]

12 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

The thing is that there are two ways to look at it, and both make it terrible writing as either

1, there are genuine personality differences and inbred mistrust between Sansa and Arya that are a part of their characters. In that case this, the actual conflict, was left completely unresolved/resolved in a random unearned way. Or

2, the who conflict was fuelled purely by LF's machinations and there was no actual conflict between the characters of Sansa and Arya. They were therefore already onboard the whole pack survives thing, LF who hardly did anything at all was the enemy all along which they already knew and the whole exercise was pointless. 

I believe option 1 is what happened. And that is why I have issues with what happened. Apparently, they resolved the issues SOMEHOW  

[Gaz0680]

3 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

So rather than telling Sansa she would support her as they're family and need to stick together she accused Sansa of treason, threatened to expose said 'treason' - the punishment for which is death, accused her of trying to usurp Jon (yet another treason), blamed her for their fathers death and then went - yeah I could totally kill you right now but I haven't yet so I guess you should conclude I'm on your side! That's reasonable. 

You're right, not disturbing at all. What was I thinking. 

It was all a play for Littlefinger, so he would think he was succeeding in turning the sisters against each other.

Again, the problem was very little of the Winterfell plot was explained onscreen....most of it is left up to the viewers to fill in the gaps, interpret the scenes and work out what the character's motivations are...and that's a failing of the writing. 

In two episodes (5&6) the writers destroyed Arya's whole character for many people on this forum....and a big part of that was the way those people interpreted the scenes between Arya and Sansa. Some (including me) interpreted the scenes differently and felt Arya had her own clear motivations for those actions to help alert Sansa, without letting Littlefinger know (so just outright talking about it not much of an option).

 

[Gaz0680]

23 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

The thing is that there are two ways to look at it, and both make it terrible writing as either

1, there are genuine personality differences and inbred mistrust between Sansa and Arya that are a part of their characters. In that case this, the actual conflict, was left completely unresolved/resolved in a random unearned way. Or

2, the who conflict was fuelled purely by LF's machinations and there was no actual conflict between the characters of Sansa and Arya. They were therefore already onboard the whole pack survives thing, LF who hardly did anything at all was the enemy all along which they already knew and the whole exercise was pointless. 

Option 2 is what happened. Arya and Sansa are very different personalities, but also had been through a hell of a lot and neither of them was about to easily fall prey to LFs machinations now. It also wouldn't make sense. They had just reunited after years apart and were in Winterfell together, along with Bran and surrounded by guards and loyal Northmen, pretty much all of whom mistrust and disliked Littlefinger. He was fucked and SHOULD realistically have been fucked the second Arya and Bran arrived in Winterfell. As brilliant a schemer as LF is, there is no way in hell he should or could have easily manufactured believable evidence compelling enough to get one or both of the sisters to turn on each other unless they were monumentally stupid (which they are not).

Option 1 no longer makes sense after the finale. Arya and Sansa's scene at end would have involved apologies and/or discussion of their fight/s, but there was none. It makes a lot more sense now if the whole thing was an act.

[Maid So Fair]

10 minutes ago, Risto said:

I believe option 1 is what happened. And that is why I have issues with what happened. Apparently, they resolved the issues SOMEHOW  

Fair enough. Unfortunately I feel the show is trying to have its cake and eat it again and is trying to push both simultaneously despite everything they put on screen.

7 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

It was all a play for Littlefinger, so he would think he was succeeding in turning the sisters against each other.

Again, the problem was very little of the Winterfell plot was explained onscreen....most of it is left up to the viewers to fill in the gaps, interpret the scenes and work out what the character's motivations are...and that's a failing of the writing. 

In two episodes (5&6) the writers destroyed Arya's whole character for many people on this forum....and a big part of that was the way those people interpreted the scenes between Arya and Sansa. Some (including me) interpreted the scenes differently and felt Arya had her own clear motivations for those actions to help alert Sansa, without letting Littlefinger know (so just outright talking about it not much of an option).

 

If you managed to honeypot some sense into in offscren then I suppose good for you, but it just didn't work for me at all. I feel the show has left !e with the choice of hating one of my favourite characters or pretending this never happened and just hating the writers for their terrible writing. 

If this was all a plot by LF, what does he have to gain from it? It puts both himself and his professed love interest in danger with no potential gain.

I also don't understand why outright talking about it would not be an option. Even if they are afraid their (private?) conversations in empty rooms behind closed heavy  doors might be overhead, they could easily meet somewhere away from prying eyes and potential eavesdroppers like the godswood or on those battlements. Hell, go for a ride in the forest! LF is not omniscient. We've had exactly zero hints either girl was playing LF or working with each other.