Discussing Sansa XXXIII: Pack survived

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, Lothar said:

But why?  They didn't need to create a conspiracy to get Littlefinger, they could have just killed him at any time.  Linda said in her review that the only people they could have been playing a game on is the viewer if that's what they were doing.

To defeat him on his own field - in mind games, so that he neevr saw that coming. But stretching it over the whole season was really excessive.

[Smoke317]

12 hours ago, Risto said:

1. She didn't know that Lysa killed Jon Arryn.

2. She didn't know about Lysa's letter and how important it was in Stark/Lannister confrontation.

3. She didn't know about him betraying Ned.

4. She didn't know about dagger.

The lion's share of LF's crimes against Starks were unknown for her. So, she did learn a lot of new things. 

The only thing she didn't know about was Ned & the dagger. She knew about Jon Arryn & the bullshit letter Lysa sent to Cat to cause distrust amongst the Starks & Lannisters because Lysa screamed them out for all to hear before Littlefinger threw her out the moon door. To be honest if you watch that scene, he clearly killed her because he saw that she couldn't keep her mouth shut & would get them both killed. It wasn't about saving Sansa. He's says something to her like "only speaking the words can make them true"...  Meaning people would only know because Lysa is talking about them. So Sansa standing right there heard everything. Yet she still kept the Snake around & paraded him through Winterfell.

[Maid So Fair]

4 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

The only thing she didn't know about was Ned & the dagger. She knew about Jon Arryn & the bullshit letter Lysa sent to Cat to cause distrust amongst the Starks & Lannisters because Lysa screamed them out for all to hear before Littlefinger threw her out the moon door. To be honest if you watch that scene, he clearly killed her because he saw that she couldn't keep her mouth shut & would get them both killed. It wasn't about saving Sansa. He's says something to her like "only speaking the words can make them true"...  Meaning people would only know because Lysa is talking about them. So Sansa standing right there heard everything. Yet she still kept the Snake around & paraded him through Winterfell.

Well, when this was all being alluded to, Sansa was struggling for her life and focusing on not falling to her death. I'd imagine that that kind of thing messes up with your attention to detail.  It makes sense for her not to dwell on the  experience and only figure it out when something else happened that the an epiphany.

[greensleeves]

6 hours ago, Newstar said:

I even wonder if that's one of the reasons they swapped in Sansa for Jeyne Poole in the ADWD storyline: they knew Sansa was going to end up single and thought that the rape storyline would justify that choice. 

This is super gross reasoning if true. Truly horrendous.

13 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Yet she still kept the Snake around & paraded him through Winterfell.

At a time when she had the Vale's loyalty and she knew for sure he was up to his old tricks, yet before he did any real damage. Also just in time for the season finale! Funny how that worked out huh?

Thanks, Sansa, for having awesome timing!

[Newstar]

16 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

This is super gross reasoning if true. Truly horrendous.

I didn't say it wasn't offensive, but I don't think D&D have earned the benefit of the doubt. For all I know, they might assume that the only possible reason a young, beautiful woman with her pick of suitors would refuse to remarry is a horribly traumatic past full of sexual abuse and torture, even though Book Sansa is souring on marriage with no rape required. Super gross, I agree, but who knows?

[greensleeves]

Just now, Newstar said:

I didn't say it wasn't offensive, but I don't think D&D have earned the benefit of the doubt. For all I know, they might assume that the only possible reason a young, beautiful woman with her pick of suitors would refuse to remarry is a horribly traumatic past full of sexual abuse and torture, even though Book Sansa is souring on marriage with no rape required. Super gross, I agree, but who knows?

Yeah, it sounds like them. I agree about not giving them the benefit of a doubt; they lost that privilege.

[Lautrec]

Since Littlefinger was married to Sansa's aunt, therefore he is her uncle. Does that mean she is a kinslayer now? Under whose authority did she have him executed? She and him both are Jon's vassals, unless the Vale is just in an alliance with the North then he isn't when means she has even less authority. Only Jon could have tried him.

[Mladen]

32 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

The only thing she didn't know about was Ned & the dagger. She knew about Jon Arryn & the bullshit letter Lysa sent to Cat to cause distrust amongst the Starks & Lannisters because Lysa screamed them out for all to hear before Littlefinger threw her out the moon door. To be honest if you watch that scene, he clearly killed her because he saw that she couldn't keep her mouth shut & would get them both killed. It wasn't about saving Sansa. He's says something to her like "only speaking the words can make them true"...  Meaning people would only know because Lysa is talking about them. So Sansa standing right there heard everything. Yet she still kept the Snake around & paraded him through Winterfell.

Yes, in the books. In the TV show, she only said: "I lied for you, I killed for you..." That is far from what Sansa accused Baelish.

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, Lautrec said:

Since Littlefinger was married to Sansa's aunt, therefore he is her uncle. Does that mean she is a kinslayer now? Under whose authority did she have him executed? She and him both are Jon's vassals, unless the Vale is just in an alliance with the North then he isn't when means she has even less authority. Only Jon could have tried him.

She is a Regent, She is a Lady of Winterfell. She had every authority to hold a trial for him.

[greensleeves]

1 minute ago, Lautrec said:

Since Littlefinger was married to Sansa's aunt, therefore he is her uncle. Does that mean she is a kinslayer now? Under whose authority did she have him executed? She and him both are Jon's vassals, unless the Vale is just in an alliance with the North then he isn't when means she has even less authority. Only Jon could have tried him.

Jon left her in charge... that includes dispensing justice (just like Bran did for Robb once upon a time). He wasn't her blood relation so she (and Arya) are not kin slayers.

[Lautrec]

2 minutes ago, Risto said:

She is a Regent, She is a Lady of Winterfell. She had every authority to hold a trial for him.

How is she a regent? Jon is still the King, she is just the Lady of Winterfell. If we assume this Kingdom is made of the North and the Vale then Jon is King of both and Sansa is the head noble of the North and Robin Arryn through his regent Littlefinger is the head of the Vale.

The impression I got from the scene was that Jon made her in charge of Wintefell, not the whole kingdom.

[Mladen]

Just now, Lautrec said:

How is she a regent? Jon is still the King, she is just the Lady of Winterfell. If we assume this Kingdom is made of the North and the Vale then Jon is King of both and Sansa is the head noble of the North and Robin Arryn through his regent Littlefinger is the head of the Vale.

First, Jon left her in charge. He literally said "The North is yours". We know Baelish and Vale knights declared for the Starks as Sansa said that to Arya and Bran. Lastly, she is the Head of her House, the ruling House in the North. She had every right to trial him, as they were all in Winterfell. 

[Stormourne]

44 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

This is super gross reasoning if true. Truly horrendous.

At a time when she had the Vale's loyalty and she knew for sure he was up to his old tricks, yet before he did any real damage. Also just in time for the season finale! Funny how that worked out huh?

Thanks, Sansa, for having awesome timing!

Was the rape itself the problem? Or that it was Sansa who was raped? Had the writers stuck with the Jeyne Poole story-line, she would have been raped, because she was raped in the books, and had worse stuff done to her, e.g. bestiality, etc.. Either way, this despicable act by Ramsay was going to happen / that it happens to one of the more central characters does not mean it is any less horrendous than if it had happened to Jeyne.

I felt bad for both Sansa and Jeyne

[Newstar]

5 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Was the rape itself the problem? Or that it was Sansa who was raped? Had the writers stuck with the Jeyne Poole story-line, she would have been raped, because she was raped in the books, and had worse stuff done to her, e.g. bestiality, etc.. Either way, this despicable act by Ramsay was going to happen / that it happens to one of the more central characters does not mean it is any less horrendous than if it had happened to Jeyne.

I felt bad for both Sansa and Jeyne

What's horrendous is the possibility that if indeed Sansa is destined to wind up alone, that D&D may have felt the need to "justify" Sansa's endgame of being voluntarily single with a traumatic rape backstory, since in their minds there's no other possible reason a beautiful woman with options would choose that fate. That's the gross part, if indeed that's the case; we don't know that Sansa's going to wind up alone (although it's looking awfully likely as of the end of S7), or that that's one of the reasons that D&D decided to swap in Sansa for Jeyne Poole.

[greensleeves]

19 minutes ago, Newstar said:

What's horrendous is the possibility that if indeed Sansa is destined to wind up alone, that D&D may have felt the need to "justify" Sansa's endgame of being voluntarily single with a traumatic rape backstory, since in their minds there's no other possible reason a beautiful woman with options would choose that fate. That's the gross part, if indeed that's the case; we don't know that Sansa's going to wind up alone (although it's looking awfully likely as of the end of S7), or that that's one of the reasons that D&D decided to swap in Sansa for Jeyne Poole.

Yes. All of this. 

[Tianzi]

45 minutes ago, Newstar said:

hat's horrendous is the possibility that if indeed Sansa is destined to wind up alone, that D&D may have felt the need to "justify" Sansa's endgame of being voluntarily single with a traumatic rape backstory, since in their minds there's no other possible reason a beautiful woman with options would choose that fate. That's the gross part, if indeed that's the case; we don't know that Sansa's going to wind up alone (although it's looking awfully likely as of the end of S7), or that that's one of the reasons that D&D decided to swap in Sansa for Jeyne Poole.

Well, then let's be grateful that this rape didn't make her turn homosexual.

 

On another note, can we talk about how Littlefinger didn't get 'outplayed' by anyone, least of it Sansa and Arya? I mean, sure, they convinced him that they were fighting, which contributed... uh, exactly nothing?

All the fresh dirt on Littlefinger came from Bran.

All Sansa herself had on Littlefinger she had known since 782392 seasons prior.

They didn't actually prove him anything. Sansa had already lied about Lysa's murder so she would't be a reliable witness... to anybody that actuallt cared. And I'm not sure if 'this drugged-looking boy has VISIONS' counts as a proof. If it does, btw, then any testimony Sansa has to offer is redundant and useless anyway.

The trial was a farce and it would go exactly the same if LF was innocent. Royce was having the time of his life and the northern lords were busy picking their noses and didn't give a tutu about those damn foreigners anyway.

Littlefinger was caught not because of some mastermind plotting by Sansa, but because he was stupid enough to stay for so long in a place where he had no allies. And to not start packing or at least preparing when Bran served the 'chaos is a laddah' line to his face. He was a sitting duck and Sansa could have disposed of him at any moment if she got bored of him. Or Arya could have gone rogue and killed him in spite of her sister's will. I mean, he honestly believed they were fighting - didn't he anticipate he could've been on Arya's hit list as Sansa's lackey?

So, basically, Sansa proceeded to waste time to gain his trust (which she didn't actually need), throw him a trial (which was a joke AND which she didn't actually need since nobody cared), accuse him of several crimes (which he was guilty of but nothing was actually proven) and have him murdered in a hall, because apparently that's how the Starks handle executions now. Any reason to drag this over the whole season?

 

TL;DR: They didn't need that useless drama, they could've just arrested Littlefinger long ago. And by 'they' I mean 'Sansa and Bran', since nobody needed Arya for that anyway. Or even 'Bran and Jon'. (was Jon present in WF when Bran arrived?)

[greensleeves]

7 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Any reason to drag this over the whole season?

 

Any reason not to? In universe, she may have needed the time to ensure the Vale's loyalty and trust in her leadership. She may have wanted to wait until she was absolutely sure it was the right move... there's no take-backs with executions. (But let's be real they wanted Littlefinger to die in the season finale and the holes in plot are because writing intrigue that makes sense is hard and the show writers have never been able to do it unless GRRM handed it to them).

[Lady Sansa Stark]

2 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Well, then let's be grateful that this rape didn't make her turn homosexual.

 

On another note, can we talk about how Littlefinger didn't get 'outplayed' by anyone, least of it Sansa and Arya? I mean, sure, they convinced him that they were fighting, which contributed... uh, exactly nothing?

All the fresh dirt on Littlefinger came from Bran.

All Sansa herself had on Littlefinger she had known since 782392 seasons prior.

They didn't actually prove him anything. Sansa had already lied about Lysa's murder so she would't be a reliable witness... to anybody that actuallt cared. And I'm not sure if 'this drugged-looking boy has VISIONS' counts as a proof. If it does, btw, then any testimony Sansa has to offer is redundant and useless anyway.

The trial was a farce and it would go exactly the same if LF was innocent. Royce was having the time of his life and the northern lords were busy picking their noses and didn't give a tutu about those damn foreigners anyway.

Littlefinger was caught not because of some mastermind plotting by Sansa, but because he was stupid enough to stay for so long in a place where he had no allies. And to not start packing or at least preparing when Bran served the 'chaos is a laddah' line to his face. He was a sitting duck and Sansa could have disposed of him at any moment if she got bored of him. Or Arya could have gone rogue and killed him in spite of her sister's will. I mean, he honestly believed they were fighting - didn't he anticipate he could've been on Arya's hit list as Sansa's lackey?

So, basically, Sansa proceeded to waste time to gain his trust (which she didn't actually need), throw him a trial (which was a joke AND which she didn't actually need since nobody cared), accuse him of several crimes (which he was guilty of but nothing was actually proven) and have him murdered in a hall, because apparently that's how the Starks handle executions now. Any reason to drag this over the whole season?

 

Ssssh, don't come in with your logic! Because, while I liked the scene (ST's acting was on fire there), I've been wondering many of the same things. Might be that LF is already dead at this point in the books, seeing as he actually didn't do much this season except pitting Sansa and Arya against each other for.. reasons. And yeah, when Bran served him his line, the first thing he should have done is run back to the Vale with the knights at his back (but without them if needs be). 

Sure, Sansa was there, and there's his whole vision of him and her on the Iron Throne or something, but mannn is he bad at calculating how to get there. He went from mastermind in the first few seasons to.. I don't even know what word to use here. While this could, of course, be a legitimate plot point, the trial was just incredibly rushed, with no backstory whatsoever. Did everyone in that room already know what was going to happen? When did Arya, Sansa and Bran actually have a conversation? 

I have so many questions still.

[Tianzi]

3 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

Any reason not to?

Shit writing & making everybody involved look stupid?

4 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

she may have needed the time to ensure the Vale's loyalty and trust in her leadership

Pity they showed her bickering with Arya and not that.

Also, Vale didn't protest only because Royce didn't like Littlefinger (which information could've been easily provided by Bran anyway) and Sweetrobin was, uh, well, somewhere.

4 minutes ago, Lady Sansa Stark said:

Because, while I liked the scene (ST's acting was on fire there

I liked Sophie Turner in that scene and I've become good at turning off logic while watching GoT, but the ruining of Littlefinger character there was just unforgivable. So no, not even 'stupid but entertaining' points here.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

it would be nice for an explanation on how that was plotted.  I would like to think that Sansa and Arya needed to ensure that Baelish had no allies.  You saw Arya watching him speak in secret to the girl and the Lords, and then the Maester.  I think it was Arya's plan to play the game and get Littlefinger but she had to get LF feel comfortable with his own plot.  Arya handing Sansa the dagger was her saying to Sansa, it's on you now.  And at some point Bran had to have told them about the knife belonging to Baelish because there is no way Arya could have known that information.  Fuck we as the audience didn't even know that until Arya said it.  I think the majority of us were under the impression it was Joffrey's knife and he tried to have Bran killed in an act of sick mercy.   I thought Baelish just blamed it on Tyrion to continue to fan the flames of war and get rid of Tyrion at the same time because Tyrion was clever enough to not be fooled by Baelish.  He would have been the one Lannister to figure out what was going on and how Baelish orchestrated the entire Lannister Stark conflict.

  I'm also thinking that Sansa had to have off screen time with Royce to explain to him what really happened at the Eeryie and that she was afraid for her life at the time.  I think he would have understood, he hated Baelish and she was just a young girl, the men of the Vale knew Lysa was nuts and Baelish was a snake so this is completely believable if you are Royce.

 

I dont think the whole room knew though because the Stark men next to Baelish turned and looked at him like they weren't expecting it.

 

I liked the scene itself, but there was way too much uncertainty.  That would have killed the surprise though and this show is all about epic moments not good storytelling.

 

As far as the sentence goes, Sansa had every right as Jon told her the North is hers which basically means rule in my stead, like Ned did for Robert in season 1.   Would have been cooler if she would have said "In the name of the king in the north Jon Snow, I Sansa of the House Stark find you guilty of treason, murder, conspiracy, and sedition and sentence you to die...... Arya..."