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Risto

Discussing Sansa XXXIII: Pack survived

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10 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Option 2 is what happened. Arya and Sansa are very different personalities, but also had been through a hell of a lot and neither of them was about to easily fall prey to LFs machinations now. It also wouldn't make sense. They had just reunited after years apart and were in Winterfell together, along with Bran and surrounded by guards and loyal Northmen, pretty much all of whom mistrust and disliked Littlefinger. He was fucked and SHOULD realistically have been fucked the second Arya and Bran arrived in Winterfell. As brilliant a schemer as LF is, there is no way in hell he should or could have easily manufactured believable evidence compelling enough to get one or both of the sisters to turn on each other unless they were monumentally stupid (which they are not).

Option 1 no longer makes sense after the finale. Arya and Sansa's scene at end would have involved apologies and/or discussion of their fight/s, but there was none. It makes a lot more sense now if the whole thing was an act.

So option 2 is stupid, option 1 makes no sense and option 3 happened entirely offscren and is actually contradicted by what we did see on screen. Some Emmy-winning writing right there.

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I really don't understand how the Starks are able to get away with executing a man based simply on the word of Bran. I mean, the other Lords don't know Bran the 3 eyed Raven. So all the other Lords in the North are perfectly ok with the Starks just killing people with no actual proof of wrongdoing? 

Don't get me wrong, I want Littlefinger to die, that just did not make sense to me.

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13 minutes ago, Heathen Librarian said:

I really don't understand how the Starks are able to get away with executing a man based simply on the word of Bran. I mean, the other Lords don't know Bran the 3 eyed Raven. So all the other Lords in the North are perfectly ok with the Starks just killing people with no actual proof of wrongdoing? 

Don't get me wrong, I want Littlefinger to die, that just did not make sense to me.

They also have the Sansa and Arya as witnesses of his actions. 3 Starks is probably enough during wartime.

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42 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Fair enough. Unfortunately I feel the show is trying to have its cake and eat it again and is trying to push both simultaneously despite everything they put on screen.

We agree on that. Just look at the atrocity the scene in Dragonpit was. The dialogue was abysmal. It completely failed to bring to life the weight of the moment and the numerous interesting interactions between the characters. 

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19 minutes ago, Heathen Librarian said:

I really don't understand how the Starks are able to get away with executing a man based simply on the word of Bran. I mean, the other Lords don't know Bran the 3 eyed Raven. So all the other Lords in the North are perfectly ok with the Starks just killing people with no actual proof of wrongdoing? 

Don't get me wrong, I want Littlefinger to die, that just did not make sense to me.

It didn't make much sense but we should not forget that not many people would come to LF's rescue. And sometimes, Lord's/Lady's word is enough.  If a ruler wants you dead, you are dead :D

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As with most things in Winterfell, this scene still fell short specifically in this case because vital actions took place offscreen. As I was watching, the question still hadn't been answered affirmatively; when did Sansa realize she was being played? Was it when LF tried to lead her into "Arya wants your job" land? I feel as if Sansa knew that's the one thing Arya would not have wanted and the lightbulb finally went off. Did she then go to Bran? So much for keeping the audience in suspense; it was just a cheap trick, which in no way negates the happy fact that LF is finally dead.  

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I would have preferred to actually see the three stark kids working together as allies to take down LF, this would have made for a better stoyline in my opinion. But of course they wanted to have their shocking twist moment, which is why everything took place offscreen. It sucks that they think their shock moments are more important than an actual story.

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9 minutes ago, MarieAntoinette said:

I would have preferred to actually see the three stark kids working together as allies to take down LF, this would have made for a better stoyline in my opinion. But of course they wanted to have their shocking twist moment, which is why everything took place offscreen. It sucks that they think their shock moments are more important than an actual story.

The bit I put in bold, I completely agree.

It has become apparent they are focusing on fantasy-action, and care very little for anything else. I know they are appealing to fans who like the big shock/action moments, but it is lazy writing. You can see when it clicks into Sansa's head that something is not adding up, and perhaps even where she spends some time applying the game to Littlefinger himself, but it would have been lovely to see some of the background to setting up the trial. 

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4 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

We've had exactly zero hints either girl was playing LF or working with each other.

We had that scene with Bran quoting LF's own words implying that Bran knows about his actions in KL, and Arya's strangely inept break-in into LF's room. I agree that a lot of the "two sisters at each other's neck" was dragged and for the shock value but the reveal didn't come entirely out of blue.

4 hours ago, Heathen Librarian said:

I really don't understand how the Starks are able to get away with executing a man based simply on the word of Bran. I mean, the other Lords don't know Bran the 3 eyed Raven. So all the other Lords in the North are perfectly ok with the Starks just killing people with no actual proof of wrongdoing? 

Don't get me wrong, I want Littlefinger to die, that just did not make sense to me.

It wasn't just on Bran's word, it was on the combined testimony of all three Starks, and Sansa being sold to the Boltons was well known.

3 hours ago, Risto said:

It didn't make much sense but we should not forget that not many people would come to LF's rescue. And sometimes, Lord's/Lady's word is enough.  If a ruler wants you dead, you are dead :D

LF should have remembered that "power is power". - Didn't Cersei order the guards to slit his throat back then? :D

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4 hours ago, Risto said:

We agree on that. Just look at the atrocity the scene in Dragonpit was. The dialogue was abysmal. It completely failed to bring to life the weight of the moment and the numerous interesting interactions between the characters. 

I'd say the Dragonpit dialogue suffered both from repetitiveness (we learn literally no new information) and the fact that none of the characters had a logical reason to be there.

22 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

We had that scene with Bran quoting LF's own words implying that Bran knows about his actions in KL, and Arya's strangely inept break-in into LF's room. I agree that a lot of the "two sisters at each other's neck" was dragged and for the shock value but the reveal didn't come entirely out of blue.

While it's implied that Bran knows more about LF that LF finds comfortable, Bran doesn't feature in the WF's plot at all, instead being shown doing his 3ER stuff. He only shows up at the end to deliver some convenient exposition. We don't see any of the actors interact with him regarding this. In fact, speaking to Bran would break the plot - if Bran was involved from the start, he had the perfect opportunity to tell Sansa and Arya about LF's betrayal of Ned and they could have executed him there and then. 

Arya breaking in is not portrayed as deliberately clumsy at all - it's scripted as LF overplaying her, which is then sported by her immediately falling for it and accusing Sansa using the note she got from his room. And it's not the kind of conversation they would wish *anybody* to overhear. And of course, of the intent was to entrap LF it's a complete fail as he doesn't do anything to compromise himself at all.

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11 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

While it's implied that Bran knows more about LF that LF finds comfortable, Bran doesn't feature in the WF's plot at all, instead being shown doing his 3ER stuff. He only shows up at the end to deliver some convenient exposition. We don't see any of the actors interact with him regarding this. In fact, speaking to Bran would break the plot - if Bran was involved from the start, he had the perfect opportunity to tell Sansa and Arya about LF's betrayal of Ned and they could have executed him there and then. 

Well, but that's the point of Bran - he has become the Westerosi Google and knows virtually everything. We are shown that he knows stuff, we see the three siblings together, so we should probably come to the conclusion that Bran has confided what he knows.

11 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Arya breaking in is not portrayed as deliberately clumsy at all - it's scripted as LF overplaying her, which is then sported by her immediately falling for it and accusing Sansa using the note she got from his room.

Eh, she breaks in immediately after he leaves, without checking if he left for sure. Clumsy.

11 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

And it's not the kind of conversation they would wish *anybody* to overhear. And of course, of the intent was to entrap LF it's a complete fail as he doesn't do anything to compromise himself at all.

He compromised himself by trying to set the sisters against each other because he made sure Arya would follow him and find the note.

The execution of the plotline was far from perfect but there is some structure that holds it together.

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

We had that scene with Bran quoting LF's own words implying that Bran knows about his actions in KL, and Arya's strangely inept break-in into LF's room. I agree that a lot of the "two sisters at each other's neck" was dragged and for the shock value but the reveal didn't come entirely out of blue.

It wasn't just on Bran's word, it was on the combined testimony of all three Starks, and Sansa being sold to the Boltons was well known.

LF should have remembered that "power is power". - Didn't Cersei order the guards to slit his throat back then? :D

It still felt like poor and shoddy writing and storytelling. I mean if they had just shown Bran and Sansa/Arya talking about Ned's death and the dagger at his neck and LF's involvement soon after Arya arrived, and then in the next episode have Sansa order Arya to kill LF, it would have made better sense. Instead they had this whole faux drama with everyone and  their mother knowing from a mile away that LF was going to get what's coming his way and the Starks are going to unite in doing him in.

LF heard Bran repeat his chaos is a ladder line back to him and then he goes planning a teen fight between the sisters? Which part of Bran strangely knowing things didn't he get? He tried to ingratiate himself with Jon, didn't work. He tried it with spooky Bran, didn't work. Then Arya gives him the stinky eye. So why did he hang around WF thinking he could turn Sansa against her family? Did he expect Sansa to get rid of both Arya and Bran? How was he expecting to deal with the fallout with the Northern lords and Jon if that happened? 

The end product in a nutshell is LF, the most cunning schemer in all of Westeros, goes out with a whimper because his final master plan to get two teenage sisters to fight and try and kill one another failed.

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6 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Well, but that's the point of Bran - he has become the Westerosi Google and knows virtually everything. We are shown that he knows stuff, we see the three siblings together, so we should probably come to the conclusion that Bran has confided what he knows.

Eh, she breaks in immediately after he leaves, without checking if he left for sure. Clumsy.

He compromised himself by trying to set the sisters against each other because he made sure Arya would follow him and find the note.

The execution of the plotline was far from perfect but there is some structure that holds it together.

That's kind of the point though - if Bran knows (mostly) everything then even if for some reason he doesn't volunteer this information, once asked he can immediately expose LF. And once they know about his real crimes they don't need any further justification to kill him. You could say they can't have him executed wihrou evidence, but when they eventually do exactly that they present no tangible evidence either.

It might be clumsy (YMMV), but there's no indication it was deliberately done to be clumsy - she could have easily made it a lot more obvious she broke in to tip him off in case he didn't happen to be lurking close by or they could have played thier mutual scenes more to an audience by having them in public and choosing a topic that doesnt compromise Sansa most of all.

Trying to set them against each other might be manipulative, but it's hardly something they can use as a justification for killing him. What's his actual crime? Stealing old correspondence? Providing (poor?) advice when specifically asked to do so? He hasn't actually *done* anything. See

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1 hour ago, teej6 said:

It still felt like poor and shoddy writing and storytelling. I mean if they had just shown Bran and Sansa/Arya talking about Ned's death and the dagger at his neck and LF's involvement soon after Arya arrived, and then in the next episode have Sansa order Arya to kill LF, it would have made better sense. Instead they had this whole faux drama with everyone and  their mother knowing from a mile away that LF was going to get what's coming his way and the Starks are going to unite in doing him in.

LF heard Bran repeat his chaos is a ladder line back to him and then he goes planning a teen fight between the sisters? Which part of Bran strangely knowing things didn't he get? He tried to ingratiate himself with Jon, didn't work. He tried it with spooky Bran, didn't work. Then Arya gives him the stinky eye. So why did he hang around WF thinking he could turn Sansa against her family? Did he expect Sansa to get rid of both Arya and Bran? How was he expecting to deal with the fallout with the Northern lords and Jon if that happened? 

The end product in a nutshell is LF, the most cunning schemer in all of Westeros, goes out with a whimper because his final master plan to get two teenage sisters to fight and try and kill one another failed.

If it makes you feel any better, Varys and Tyrion have become even more inept this season than Littlefinger. Granted, thinking that a woman who was held captive in her own home while being raped and tortured for months because of you, would still trust you and maybe even up in a loving relationship with you, is truly stupid.

Even so, Dany could have completely dominated Cersei's army, taken the Iron Throne, and then rebuilt the Watch to hold off the Night King. Because Tyrion is an idiot, she has lost her crucial alliances among the Dornish, Reach, and Ironborn. Her army is severely weakened, she is down a dragon, and she has given the Night King his only possible means of breaching the Wall. Plus she has given Cersei enough time to hire a mercenary army and ferry them to Westeros.

Cersei is dumb enough to think Euron will just hand her an entire army because he wants to have sex with her. Then again, some of the fanbase will swear she's brilliant because she can Deus Ex Machina her problems away with wildfire.

And Varys was stupid enough to spend years plotting to put screwball Viserys on the Iron Throne, because he cares about the smallfolk. His magic plan with Dany was to cross his fingers and hope she wasn't murdered or enslaved in all the years she wandered the Free Cities begging for food and shelter.

As Tywin once said, now all we have left from the once brilliant characters is "Madness and stupidity".

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Ultimately, I wished that Sansa had been the one to kill LF.  Yet again, Sansa uses other people to do the work, and keep her hands clean.  If I remember rightly, she has harmed nobody in the show.  

I am glad LF is dead, and glad that it appeared that the 3 Stark children worked together.  I just always end up wishing that Sansa had more agency.

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11 minutes ago, Lorathi said:

If it makes you feel any better, Varys and Tyrion have become even more inept this season than Littlefinger. Granted, thinking that a woman who was held captive in her own home while being raped and tortured for months because of you, would still trust you and maybe even up in a loving relationship with you, is truly stupid.

Ah yes, St. Tyrion is now dumbass Tyrion and Varys is non-existent. And when we do have the occasional Varys scenes he's shown to be the noble and altruistic enuch who wants nothing but the good of the realm. 

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7 minutes ago, Lorathi said:

If it makes you feel any better, Varys and Tyrion have become even more inept this season than Littlefinger. Granted, thinking that a woman who was held captive in her own home while being raped and tortured for months because of you, would still trust you and maybe even up in a loving relationship with you, is truly stupid.

Even so, Dany could have completely dominated Cersei's army, taken the Iron Throne, and then rebuilt the Watch to hold off the Night King. Because Tyrion is an idiot, she has lost her crucial alliances among the Dornish, Reach, and Ironborn. Her army is severely weakened, she is down a dragon, and she has given the Night King his only possible means of breaching the Wall. Plus she has given Cersei enough time to hire a mercenary army and ferry them to Westeros.

Cersei is dumb enough to think Euron will just hand her an entire army because he wants to have sex with her. Then again, some of the fanbase will swear she's brilliant because she can Deus Ex Machina her problems away with wildfire.

And Varys was stupid enough to spend years plotting to put screwball Viserys on the Iron Throne, because he cares about the smallfolk. His magic plan with Dany was to cross his fingers and hope she wasn't murdered or enslaved in all the years she wandered the Free Cities begging for food and shelter.

As Tywin once said, now all we have left from the once brilliant characters is "Madness and stupidity".

 

Littlefinger could have had Sansa and Winterfell if, instead of trying to persuade Sansa that her sister was going to kill her; he had undermined the mostly absent Jon's rule to a few Northern lords and had them perform a coup as well, dangle Sansa as a bride along with the Kingship of the North to one or two of them (perhaps Arya to another), then, as the coup begins, go running to Sansa with the news that these lords are rebelling against Jon and plan to seize her and offer to marry Sansa himself to save her and enforce it with the might of the Vale knights; and meanwhile assure that Arya is either killed in the process or shipped off to the Vale as a  bride for Robin and hope that Robin has her pushed out the Moon Door.   That would have had a better chance of working...

What bothered  me was not the final confrontation with Littlefinger, but the  sloppiness in plotting that led up to it.  We were led to believe that Arya had some serious anger towards Sansa and was threatening her life or at least bent on scaring Sansa; and we still don't know whether that interplay was real or manufactured to draw out Littlefinger; because we don't know when Sansa discussed Littlefinger with Bran.  It looks like Arya was in on Sansa's plan when Arya was brought to the hall for 'trial', since Arya had the dagger.  But I would have liked to see Sansa have enough agency to not only distrust Littlefinger, but go to talk to her visionary brother herself to get some extra intel.  I personally think that Sansa realized that Littlefinger was pushing her to get rid of Arya shortly before she sent Brienne to King's Landing; since that move would signal to Littlefinger that Sansa wanted Arya's only protection gone from Winterfell.  But we don't know; and if we assue that Arya and Sansa's increasingly tense and bitter conversations were pre-arranged to confuse Littlefinger, than why was Sansa digging through Arya's things and pulling out Faceless-masks?  And why would Sansa have looked so hurt and horror-stricken when Arya coldly threatened to kill her, with real tears in Sansa's eyes?  Littlefinger couldn't have seen that much if he was peeping through a keyhole, mainly he would have heard their voices...

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People are reading waaaaaay too much into the Arya/Sansa/Littlefinger shenanigans before this episode.  Arya following him and being hostile to Sansa was not a set up, that was all real.  Sansa being frightened of Arya's intentions was also real.  Now, Littlefinger could have implied that Arya was a psycho ninja assassin, and that she wanted to kill Sansa because she married a Bolton, or that her letter to Robb was treasonous, or a variety of other reasons, but he chose the one motive that Sansa knew for certain was not true, ie that Arya wants to be Lady of Winterfell.  That was his undoing.

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