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Cron

The Seven Blessings of 707

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2 hours ago, King Ragnar said:

I had the feeling Theon was asking Jon's forgiveness because Theon is about to die... Saving Yara but dying in the process

Very interesting.  I do think that WOULD make good storytelling.

Yeah, "clearing the decks" before going out in a blaze of redemptive glory.

I like it.

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11 hours ago, Zapho said:

Yes, very likely. I think that was the whole point of the stupid catch a wight to convince Cersei plan. The NK had to get a chance to get a dragon. 

I have no doubt that was why, and to get Dany up there and see for her own eyes. 

Quote

A lot of people blame the show's writers for the whole thing but that's probably not fair. The way the wall came down must have been something GRRM laid down. It's something of a huge plot hole imo, because the AotD just aren't a danger to the realm as long as they stayed beyond the Wall. If Jon had done nothing ... 

Yeah, Martin laid down the plot for them, but who knows in what detail?  It seems to me in the books there were reasons that they thought the magic in the wall was weakening.  Does anyone recall? Also, just the fact that the WWs have reappeared after thousands of years absence would be reason enough to worry.

At the beginning of season 7, during the opening view of the map, my husband pointed out what he thought looked like the water on either side of the wall turning to ice, a little more each of the first few episodes, so we thought they would just go around. 

At any rate, unless something is so obviously stupid, I have learned to reserve judgement because in this show, things that don't make sense at first usually do later.

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3 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

I have no doubt that was why, and to get Dany up there and see for her own eyes. 

Yeah, Martin laid down the plot for them, but who knows in what detail?  It seems to me in the books there were reasons that they thought the magic in the wall was weakening.  Does anyone recall? Also, just the fact that the WWs have reappeared after thousands of years absence would be reason enough to worry.

At the beginning of season 7, during the opening view of the map, my husband pointed out what he thought looked like the water on either side of the wall turning to ice, a little more each of the first few episodes, so we thought they would just go around. 

At any rate, unless something is so obviously stupid, I have learned to reserve judgement because in this show, things that don't make sense at first usually do later.

I thought the same thing about the sea near Eastwatch as it was frozen in the opening for this season.  

There was also the Bran's frozen scar theory that would allow the NK and his army to pass safely.  

I think them going on a wighthunt was to simply give him a dragon unfortunately which means that was a stupid plan.  

Tyrion could have brokered a meeting and Dany could have flown in unknown to everyone and torched all her enemies in the dragon pit and she keeps her word she would not attack and burn down Kings Landing.  

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8 hours ago, Cron said:

Bats are cute?? Have you ever had one in your home?  If so, you might have a different opinion, cuz I HAVE had them in my home. HAR!

And bats actually ARE creepy crawly, just like the dragons.  I guarantee it. 

Well, no I haven't.  I've only seen them hanging from the roof outside.  I also have never had a bunch of them fly in my face like my son has.

8 hours ago, Cron said:

Mmmmm...Cersei is more than in her late 30's at this point.  My understanding is that she and Jaime are in their mid-40's.  Even in the books Cersei and Jaime would be AT LEAST in their late 30's to early 40's, and the characters are aged up for the show.

I estimated her age based on getting married in her late teens, having Joffrey a couple years later, and he was about 17 when he died a few years ago, I think.  She definitely looks mid 40s, and if she is, that really makes her pregnancy high risk.

8 hours ago, Cron said:

Wouldn't it be great if BRAN is the one to tell Jaime he is not the father of Cersei's current pregnancy???   WOW, talk about karma coming full circle, since Jaime pushed Bran out the window after Bran saw Jaime and Cersei having sex.

No kidding, that would be great!

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My 7 Blessings in no particular order (and I thought in terms of natural elements)

1. Fire - Dany and Drogon arriving at the Dragon Pit, with the dragon spewing fire, announcing a Targaryen.

2. Snow - Jaime off on a path toward redemption, with snow covering his footsteps behind him, as if to say he cannot go back because his path is gone.

3. Water- Commonly the symbol of rebirth, we see Jon on the water, giving himself to another while we are hearing who Jon was born to be.

4. Blood -  The satisfying blood of LittleFinger in payment for his many betrayals.  

5. Kinship: Seeing the 3 Starks together in the meeting hall, after so long apart, and so many hardships and trials. 

6. Ice - Watching the Zombie Viserion blow 'ice' onto the magic wall and cause it to fall while in the same episode we watch Drogon blast dragon fire, The heat of life against the cold of death.

7. Love - Jon and Dany. 

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21 hours ago, Cron said:

 

Are you a fan of Jaime and Brienne getting together, then?  Or do you just really dislike Cersei?

Jon and Arya have not seen each other since Episode 101.

I don't normally have much use for Theon, but I do like Asha (from the books) a lot.  Have you read the books?  Asha is really cool.  (The actress who plays Yara in the show does a good job, I think, but Asha and Yara are quite different, as you may know, and overall I prefer Asha.  Not the fault of the Yara actress, though.)

I'm starting to think you're a jaime fan for sure.  Am I right, or not so much?

I don't believe Jaime and Brienne will end up together, I'm not an advocate for it, but I wouldn't be disappointed if it happened. 

Jaime is my favorite character. I read the books before the show and find him to be one of the best written characters of any book or book series I've ever read. I don't believe I've ever passionately disliked a character as much as him only to have my opinion completely changed later. That is one of the reasons I loved Storm of Swords so much. Even when I re-read the books I find myself hating him again (to a lesser extent than the first time) and then remembering why I like him when I get to SOS. 

And I dislike Cersi that much! 

Wow... yeah, I guess I forgot Jon and Arya haven't seen each other since the first episode! That will be a great reunion. 

Agree, of the iron born Asha is my favorite as well. They can call here Yara on the show, I still "hear" Asha! 

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21 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

My 7 Blessings in no particular order (and I thought in terms of natural elements)

1. Fire - Dany and Drogon arriving at the Dragon Pit, with the dragon spewing fire, announcing a Targaryen.

2. Snow - Jaime off on a path toward redemption, with snow covering his footsteps behind him, as if to say he cannot go back because his path is gone.

3. Water- Commonly the symbol of rebirth, we see Jon on the water, giving himself to another while we are hearing who Jon was born to be.

4. Blood -  The satisfying blood of LittleFinger in payment for his many betrayals.  

5. Kinship: Seeing the 3 Starks together in the meeting hall, after so long apart, and so many hardships and trials. 

6. Ice - Watching the Zombie Viserion blow 'ice' onto the magic wall and cause it to fall while in the same episode we watch Drogon blast dragon fire, The heat of life against the cold of death.

7. Love - Jon and Dany. 

Very well said!! Loved this! 

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1 hour ago, SansaJonRule said:

Well, no I haven't.  I've only seen them hanging from the roof outside.  I also have never had a bunch of them fly in my face like my son has.

Yes, my understanding is that bats are attracted to warmth, and will thus fly up close to humans (including right in front of their faces, which I have had happen, too) b/c they are investigating the heat source.  It's pretty disturbing.  

1 hour ago, SansaJonRule said:

I estimated her age based on getting married in her late teens, having Joffrey a couple years later, and he was about 17 when he died a few years ago, I think.  She definitely looks mid 40s, and if she is, that really makes her pregnancy high risk.

Well, here's my understanding of it.  In the books, Cersei married Robert when she was 19. But in the show, the characters are aged up, probably at least 3 or 4 years.  So let's say show-Cersei married Robert at 23.  Then, as I recall, we are told in the show that 17 years have passed since the end of Robert's Rebellion and the death of Jon Arryn. So that takes Cersei up to 40 right there.  Then, on top of that, we have to add all the years that have passed since Episode 101.  I'd say that has to be at LEAST 5 or 6 years.  So, that takes Cersei well into her mid-40's right now.

If someone has more precise information, that would be welcome, but that's my memory of it.

1 hour ago, SansaJonRule said:

No kidding, that would be great!

The Jaime and Bran reunion should be a real doozy no matter what.  Clearly, Bran MUST now know exactly what Jaime did when he pushed Bran from the tower, and why Jaime did it.  My guess is that Bran will be mellow about it, though, basically saying that (a) per Bran's visions, Jaime still has an important role to play (who knows, maybe Bran will even SEND Jaime to cross Cersei off), and (b)  Bran, in his wisdom, will understand that if Jaime had NOT done what he did, it is very likely that Bran never would have become the 3 Eyed Raven (Bran's powers started to emerge only after his fall from the tower).  That doesn't mean Bran will be HAPPY about what Jaime did, but it's easy for me to imagine Bran understanding that it's all part of the cosmic pattern.

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1 hour ago, lakin1013 said:

My 7 Blessings in no particular order (and I thought in terms of natural elements)

1. Fire - Dany and Drogon arriving at the Dragon Pit, with the dragon spewing fire, announcing a Targaryen.

2. Snow - Jaime off on a path toward redemption, with snow covering his footsteps behind him, as if to say he cannot go back because his path is gone.

3. Water- Commonly the symbol of rebirth, we see Jon on the water, giving himself to another while we are hearing who Jon was born to be.

4. Blood -  The satisfying blood of LittleFinger in payment for his many betrayals.  

5. Kinship: Seeing the 3 Starks together in the meeting hall, after so long apart, and so many hardships and trials. 

6. Ice - Watching the Zombie Viserion blow 'ice' onto the magic wall and cause it to fall while in the same episode we watch Drogon blast dragon fire, The heat of life against the cold of death.

7. Love - Jon and Dany. 

Yeah, that's VERY cool, very creative!

Thanks for your contribution here!!

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1 hour ago, Sweet April said:

I don't believe Jaime and Brienne will end up together, I'm not an advocate for it, but I wouldn't be disappointed if it happened. 

Jaime is my favorite character. I read the books before the show and find him to be one of the best written characters of any book or book series I've ever read. I don't believe I've ever passionately disliked a character as much as him only to have my opinion completely changed later. That is one of the reasons I loved Storm of Swords so much. Even when I re-read the books I find myself hating him again (to a lesser extent than the first time) and then remembering why I like him when I get to SOS. 

And I dislike Cersi that much! 

Wow... yeah, I guess I forgot Jon and Arya haven't seen each other since the first episode! That will be a great reunion. 

Agree, of the iron born Asha is my favorite as well. They can call here Yara on the show, I still "hear" Asha! 

Yeah, Jaime is a very complex and interesting character, especially with his redemption arc.  He reminds me of Anakin (Darth Vader) from Star Wars quite a bit, including the loss of a hand/limb.

Storm of Swords is my favorite book (even though I love all 5, and pretty much all parts of all 5.  A lot of people seem to complain about parts of AFFC, but I love that entire book, too.)

The Asha/Yara thing is bizarre, something I'll never understand.  Dunno why they changed her character so much, including but not limited to her name (We were told they dumped the name "Asha" cuz it was too close to "Osha," and people might get confused, so INSTEAD they named her "Yara," which is a direct anagram of an even MORE well known character, "Arya," and sounds very similar to "Arya" as well??? What???)

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1 hour ago, lakin1013 said:

My 7 Blessings in no particular order (and I thought in terms of natural elements)

1. Fire - Dany and Drogon arriving at the Dragon Pit, with the dragon spewing fire, announcing a Targaryen.

2. Snow - Jaime off on a path toward redemption, with snow covering his footsteps behind him, as if to say he cannot go back because his path is gone.

3. Water- Commonly the symbol of rebirth, we see Jon on the water, giving himself to another while we are hearing who Jon was born to be.

4. Blood -  The satisfying blood of LittleFinger in payment for his many betrayals.  

5. Kinship: Seeing the 3 Starks together in the meeting hall, after so long apart, and so many hardships and trials. 

6. Ice - Watching the Zombie Viserion blow 'ice' onto the magic wall and cause it to fall while in the same episode we watch Drogon blast dragon fire, The heat of life against the cold of death.

7. Love - Jon and Dany. 

This is great. Esp the part about the snow covering Jaime's footsteps.  That interpretation never occurred to me.

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29 minutes ago, Cron said:

Yes, my understanding is that bats are attracted to warmth, and will thus fly up close to humans (including right in front of their faces, which I have had happen, too) b/c they are investigating the heat source.  It's pretty disturbing.  

Well, here's my understanding of it.  In the books, Cersei married Robert when she was 19. But in the show, the characters are aged up, probably at least 3 or 4 years.  So let's say show-Cersei married Robert at 23.  Then, as I recall, we are told in the show that 17 years have passed since the end of Robert's Rebellion and the death of Jon Arryn. So that takes Cersei up to 40 right there.  Then, on top of that, we have to add all the years that have passed since Episode 101.  I'd say that has to be at LEAST 5 or 6 years.  So, that takes Cersei well into her mid-40's right now.

I knew they aged up the children.  I didn't know they aged up the adults too.

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1 hour ago, SansaJonRule said:

I knew they aged up the children.  I didn't know they aged up the adults too.

Yes, it is my understanding that the adults are aged up too.

My STRONG memory is that in an early season, Jaime is said to be 40 (i THINK Joffrey makes some insulting comment to Jaime, mocking him, and refers to Jaime's age as 40, but I am very confident Jaime's age IS given as 40, which of course makes Cersei also 40.  I think the adults are aged up 5 years.  I'm pretty sure in the books, at the beginning, Tyrion is 28 and Jaime and Cersei are both 35, so that means in the show Tyrion starts out at 33, seven years younger than Jaime and Cersei)

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6 hours ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

I thought the same thing about the sea near Eastwatch as it was frozen in the opening for this season.  

There was also the Bran's frozen scar theory that would allow the NK and his army to pass safely.  

I think them going on a wighthunt was to simply give him a dragon unfortunately which means that was a stupid plan.  

Tyrion could have brokered a meeting and Dany could have flown in unknown to everyone and torched all her enemies in the dragon pit and she keeps her word she would not attack and burn down Kings Landing.  

Maybe it simply comes down to some stupidity, lack of knowledge and arrogance on the characters' part. Cersei clearly doesn't understand that the AotD is a threat she shouldn't treat as a chess-piece in political games. Which shows that she doesn't learn from her mistakes. She did the same thing with the High Sparrow and it backfired badly. She is just unable to see or to accept that it was her fault. I think it might be her way of coping not so well with her children's deaths. Objectively, she bears a huge part of the blame. This is something that can't be true in her mind, so what she did can't have been stupid or wrong. Ever. 

Tyrion and Jon might not have taken into account that the NK is intelligent. They see the danger the zombies pose, but probably not that there is some plan behind. The NK was prepared and had a plan. That he was able to play team Jon/Dany suggests that he has some way of getting information in a magical way. The fact that he became active again after 8.000 years of being more or less dormant can't be a coincidence either. He awoke at the right time, when there was a chance to bring down the wall. Season 8 will probably show more of his back-story and his abilities.

Tyrion and Jaime just didn't see how far from being reasonable Cersei has become. Ironically, Tyrion is now more delusional about Cersei than Jaime.

And Dany probably believed her Dragons to be invincible, deep down. That the NK took one down so easily and almost killed another might turn out to be a healthy lesson for her.

I think 07/07 is  this satisfying because we see some characters realizing some of the huge mistakes they made in the past and do something about it. My favorite being Sansa deciding to finally take care of LF, but Theon and Jaime are also coming around and Tyrion, Jon and Dany will certainly not repeat their mistakes.

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16 hours ago, Zapho said:

Maybe it simply comes down to some stupidity, lack of knowledge and arrogance on the characters' part. Cersei clearly doesn't understand that the AotD is a threat she shouldn't treat as a chess-piece in political games. Which shows that she doesn't learn from her mistakes. She did the same thing with the High Sparrow and it backfired badly. She is just unable to see or to accept that it was her fault. I think it might be her way of coping not so well with her children's deaths. Objectively, she bears a huge part of the blame. This is something that can't be true in her mind, so what she did can't have been stupid or wrong. Ever. 

Hear, hear.  There are LOTS of people like this in the world.  Everything is always somebody else's fault.

In fact, I've known a number of them myself in "real life."

16 hours ago, Zapho said:

Tyrion and Jon might not have taken into account that the NK is intelligent. They see the danger the zombies pose, but probably not that there is some plan behind. The NK was prepared and had a plan. That he was able to play team Jon/Dany suggests that he has some way of getting information in a magical way. The fact that he became active again after 8.000 years of being more or less dormant can't be a coincidence either. He awoke at the right time, when there was a chance to bring down the wall. Season 8 will probably show more of his back-story and his abilities.

Yeah, I'm in the camp that assumes the NK is smarter than most people think, and planned to get one of Dany's dragons all along.

As far as his "getting information in a magical way," I believe he has greenseer powers like Bran.  Note that he is aware of Bran when Bran is present via greenseeing, which implies that the NK is attuned to that "frequency" too.

 

16 hours ago, Zapho said:

Tyrion and Jaime just didn't see how far from being reasonable Cersei has become. Ironically, Tyrion is now more delusional about Cersei than Jaime.

Maybe.  I think it's pretty hard to now what Tyrion is thinking right now.  I DO believe something important was discussed between Tyrion and Cersei that we don't yet know about, but I think it could take a lot of forms.

Also, note that the only reason Jaime is no longer delusional about Cersei is because she TOLD him her plan, called him stupid or dumb (or whatever), and nearly had Gregor kill him.  Prior to that, Jaime still seemed to think Cersei was pretty cool, near as I could tell.

16 hours ago, Zapho said:

And Dany probably believed her Dragons to be invincible, deep down. That the NK took one down so easily and almost killed another might turn out to be a healthy lesson for her.

Maybe.  But I think the dragons have been simply nerfed.  I wonder what would have happened if Dany had REALLY unleashed their full fury up north.  Cuz she didn't.  I wonder if the NK could survive a full blast of dragonfire?  I'm guessing not, but hey, maybe.

16 hours ago, Zapho said:

I think 07/07 is  this satisfying because we see some characters realizing some of the huge mistakes they made in the past and do something about it. My favorite being Sansa deciding to finally take care of LF, but Theon and Jaime are also coming around and Tyrion, Jon and Dany will certainly not repeat their mistakes.

All sounds good to me, hope you're right!

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On 31/08/2017 at 7:42 AM, Cron said:

Well, those are interesting thoughts, but I think the thing that made the wight scary was that it was totally whacked out, totally out of control.

Drogon is big and powerful, but Dany controls him, and he is under control.

Gregor is big and powerful, but Cersei controls him, and he is under control.

The wight, on the other hand was totally whacked out.     And that's scary to a lot of people.

Further, note that there is only one Drogon, and only one Gregor, but Dany said there were over 100,000 in the Army of the Dead.

So that's scary, cuz of strength in numbers.

Ah, the illusion of control.

If Dany ran out of food for her dragons, would they still obey her? If the Hound goaded the Mountain enough, would the Cersie still control it? The Hound goading the Mountain made me think the Hound would be the valonqar.

And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

Her tears may be tears of fear when Franken Mountain is destroyed, although I never thought the Hound would be able to beat a reanimated Mountain.

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On 8/29/2017 at 2:29 AM, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I like this theory a lot!  I also believe that Jaime will probably kill Cersei, and even more likely be the one who delivers the realm saving blow to defeat the white walkers once and for all (likely dying in the process) but I am not on board with him and Brienne having sex or conceiving a child.

lol me too.  I am really hoping that Jaime and Brienne get together.  The child is one of my pet (likely tinfoil) theories but I would love it if it happened, even if the baby is still a work in progress at the end of the series lol.

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Well, this is really interesting.  A moment ago I was going to say that I thought Arya would have had huge problems in KL because she is very proud and totally dislikes the game.  Then, a second later I realised that she did play games and swallowed a hell of a lot of pride with the FM, so she might well have acted more like Sansa in KL too whilst plotting revenge of course :)

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6 hours ago, ummester said:

Ah, the illusion of control.

If Dany ran out of food for her dragons, would they still obey her? If the Hound goaded the Mountain enough, would the Cersie still control it? The Hound goading the Mountain made me think the Hound would be the valonqar.

And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

Her tears may be tears of fear when Franken Mountain is destroyed, although I never thought the Hound would be able to beat a reanimated Mountain.

Let's say, hypothetically, that during that meeting in the Dragon Pit, the wight's "brain" was suddenly placed in Drogon's body.

What would have happened?  Answer:  The humans would all have been dead, VERY quickly. 

But that didn't happen, cuz Drogon is under Dany's control.  Maybe not perfect control under all hypothetical circumstances, but Drogon was there, at the meeting, and he did not kill all the humans.

If the wight could have killed all the humans, he clearly would have, without hesitation.

Now, let's say the wight's brain was in Gregor.  Okay, that would not be as bad as the wight's brain in Drogon, but still, that would be a problem (the full extent of which is not clear, cuz there's a lot we really don't know about Gregor's current condition), and it's pretty likely some humans would die.

But that didn't happen, cuz Gregor is under Cersei's control.   Maybe not perfect control, but like Drogon, Gregor was there at the meeting, and did not go berserk and start murdering every human he could.

The wight, on the other hand, would surely have murdered every human he could, if he had the ability.

Regarding Sandor and Gregor:  I'm convinced Jaime is the Valonqar, but Sandor is a candidate, since he is a little brother.  Could he beat UnGregor?  Maybe.  A lot is unknown about UnGregor.  Just how strong is he?  How much damage can he take while still being able to fight effectively?  How have his speed and reflexes been affected by what Qyburn did to him?  Dunno, dunno, and dunno.  If he's still basically Gregor, but just in some kind of undead form, I think Sandor has got a great chance.  Why not?  Oberyn had Gregor beaten, using skill, agility and speed, which I thought was pretty realistic.   Why couldn't Sandor do the same?

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58 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

lol me too.  I am really hoping that Jaime and Brienne get together.  The child is one of my pet (likely tinfoil) theories but I would love it if it happened, even if the baby is still a work in progress at the end of the series lol.

It's pretty easy for me to imagine the series ending with Brienne pregnant with Jaime's child.

It would be fitting, cuz Jaime is/was so concerned with family and legacy, and that got REALLY screwed up throughout most of his life.  He had kids with Cersei, but they, of course, are already all dead.

So, as the epilogue to Jaime's story (after he dies at the end of the current series), I think it would be very appropriate closure to his story for his legacy to still be alive, with Brienne, as she finally fills in his pages in the King's Guard White Book, too.

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