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Wildling Queen

That look on Tyrion's face

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2 hours ago, Wildling Queen said:

Tyrion seemed so disturbed at the end after seeing Jon go to Daenerys. Did he betray Daenerys with Cersei? Why did Cersei change her mind?

What was going on in Tyrion's head at the end?

He's been betraying daenerys ever since they arrived in westeros, making plans that protects Cersei and Jaime, giving them time to think and attack while at the same time delaying Daenerys allies and army and chipping away at them. Yara's plan of attacking king's landing right away was right and the Dwarf knew it but it would have destroyed his family so he scolded her. The Dwarf plan was to separate Dany's armies in the hope Jaime and maybe euron who was out there would pick them out one by one and it worked. His last plan of sending jon snow beyond the wall was a little too much. I didnt think he would go to that length to protect his family, but he didnt know that dany would go with her dragons or did he?. Maybe the Dwarf saw the connection between Jon and Dany and by sending jon to the wall, Jorah too, maybe she would go with her dragons if she thought them in danger. Maybe she would lose a dragon or two if the whole army of the dead was real or so he thought.

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2 hours ago, LyannaWolfe said:

Hi all! Brand new poster here! :) Just a few thoughts on this topic.

I've never gotten the 'Tyrion is in love with Dany' vibe. And I REALLY hope that isn't the direction they go. We already have Jorah lusting after her and constantly being friend-zoned; we don't need another character in the same space.

I think that now that Jon is swiftly becoming Dany's unofficial 'adviser,' Tyrion is feeling left out. He's supposed to be her hand, her primary voice of reason and the person she listens to/trusts the most, but this season has really been eroding that trust. His tactical and strategic failures, along with Dany's growing attraction and trust in Jon, has her sidelining Tyrion more and more. She's openly turned to Jon when asking how to handle the war; she disregarded Tyrion when he said to not go rescue Jon and team; she dismissed his caution before burning the Tarlys. Just to name a few things.

Add all of that up, then add to it the fact that Jon had, in fact, bent the knee to Dany, without telling anyone and then dropped that tidbit of info at a very critical point in negotiations with Cersei, without warning...I can totally see Tyrion feeling that he's quickly losing Dany's confidence/place by her side. He seemed really defensive/frustrated about not knowing beforehand that Jon had pledged his support to Dany when talking with Cersei. 

And now that Dany and Jon have not only hooked up, but they have some serious feelings between them, Tyrion's advice will be more easily dismissed.  All you have to do is look at what happened to Jorah's advice to Dany, which was summarily dismissed in favor of Jon's not to see where Tyrion's place/advice is headed.

It used to be Dany/Tyrion and team against the world. Now, it's swiftly becoming Dany/Jon against the world. So, where does that leave a character like Tyrion whose admitted enjoyment and purpose in life is to be that primary adviser to powerful people -- specifically Dany, who he sees as the one person that can right all the wrongs in the world? 

I don't think that means he has betrayed Dany and/or Jon...yet. But if things continue this way, he very may well could. 

Just my humble .02 cents.   

Welcome and congrats on your first post, it's a really thorough and well put together one too ! 

I agree with your examples and point that the growing gap between Tyrion and Daenerys is one of the themes of the season. It's definitely one of the areas of the show I'm keeping an eye on as the show heads into the final season. With so many characters set to die who are otherwise in safe positions, like Mel and Varys, I think some kind of conflict/ chaos must arise within team Danny. 

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3 hours ago, Wildling Queen said:

Tyrion seemed so disturbed at the end after seeing Jon go to Daenerys. Did he betray Daenerys with Cersei? Why did Cersei change her mind?

What was going on in Tyrion's head at the end?

I really hope he isn't falling for Dany. I saw that as a disapproving look, so it could be that he thinks the romance is a bad idea, or that he sees it as Jon being more influential over Dany as compared to himself.

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5 hours ago, Kytheros said:

Jorah's basically dead to Lyanna Mormont. If she knows who he is, it's as a disgrace to their House and the North who fled judgement instead of facing it or taking the Black. She'd prefer to have him dead, rather than talk to him.

Thats quite right, in the books that would be the logic reaction of Lyanna mormont.. the show, i dont think so, the will do it im sure, Jorah taking his place at bear island eventually, that was Dany's promise to him a long time ago, and im sure the producers wont screw over little Lyanna so they will come together..

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8 hours ago, LyannaWolfe said:

Hi all! Brand new poster here! :) Just a few thoughts on this topic.

I've never gotten the 'Tyrion is in love with Dany' vibe. And I REALLY hope that isn't the direction they go. We already have Jorah lusting after her and constantly being friend-zoned; we don't need another character in the same space.

I think that now that Jon is swiftly becoming Dany's unofficial 'adviser,' Tyrion is feeling left out. He's supposed to be her hand, her primary voice of reason and the person she listens to/trusts the most, but this season has really been eroding that trust. His tactical and strategic failures, along with Dany's growing attraction and trust in Jon, has her sidelining Tyrion more and more. She's openly turned to Jon when asking how to handle the war; she disregarded Tyrion when he said to not go rescue Jon and team; she dismissed his caution before burning the Tarlys. Just to name a few things.

Add all of that up, then add to it the fact that Jon had, in fact, bent the knee to Dany, without telling anyone and then dropped that tidbit of info at a very critical point in negotiations with Cersei, without warning...I can totally see Tyrion feeling that he's quickly losing Dany's confidence/place by her side. He seemed really defensive/frustrated about not knowing beforehand that Jon had pledged his support to Dany when talking with Cersei. 

And now that Dany and Jon have not only hooked up, but they have some serious feelings between them, Tyrion's advice will be more easily dismissed.  All you have to do is look at what happened to Jorah's advice to Dany, which was summarily dismissed in favor of Jon's not to see where Tyrion's place/advice is headed.

It used to be Dany/Tyrion and team against the world. Now, it's swiftly becoming Dany/Jon against the world. So, where does that leave a character like Tyrion whose admitted enjoyment and purpose in life is to be that primary adviser to powerful people -- specifically Dany, who he sees as the one person that can right all the wrongs in the world? 

I don't think that means he has betrayed Dany and/or Jon...yet. But if things continue this way, he very may well could. 

Just my humble .02 cents.   

Good post.
Tyrion is loyal to both his family (or rather, Jamie) and Daenerys at the same time, it explains some of his actions and ideas this season.

Once (and if) Jamie reaches the north with news of Cerseis impending betrayal, Tyrion will be back on team Targaryen.
If he did plan something with Cerseis behind Daenerys back, that plan will quickly evaporate, partly because Cersei lied, and partly because (if this theory ends up being true), there will actually be another heir than Cerseis child. My main concern at that stage will be what Daenerys will do if she finds out. We know that she's very touchy about the topics of succession and betrayal. 

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Only drama I can see happening in Dany's camp next season would be about Jon's heritage. Even if Tyrion is unhappy with Dany, I simply can't see him betraying her for Cersei of all people. Those two hated each other from season 1/episode 1

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21 minutes ago, Wolf Rider said:

Only drama I can see happening in Dany's camp next season would be about Jon's heritage. Even if Tyrion is unhappy with Dany, I simply can't see him betraying her for Cersei of all people. Those two hated each other from season 1/episode 1

Correct Jon will be disgusted with himself and start to act differently towards Dany when he finds out she is his aunt.  Dany will find out she is pregnant and question why Jon is being so distant.  Eventually Jon will find out Dany is pregnant and they will get married because Jon will NOT father a bastard.  I'm more interested to see how Dany reacts to the fact that someone else has an even more legit claim to the throne even though Jon wouldn't want it.  

 

And also, what if their child is really Azor Ahai?

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And also, what if their child is really Azor Ahai?

Even if it is, it won't be important for the show. There's only 6 episodes left, and NK is already marching south... 

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Just now, Wolf Rider said:

Even if it is, it won't be important for the show. There's only 6 episodes left, and NK is already marching south... 

Good point.  I figured since ravens can fly thousands of miles in few hours maybe people can have babies and them grow up in a few episodes too lol.

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We don't know how the news that he will

once again become an uncle does to him emotionally.  

 

Cersei if she was smart would have asked her brother to plead with Dany to spare her and her family's lives if she bent the knee and they could safely return to Casterly Rock and continue to live as the noble house of Lannister like they did in the days before Robert's Rebellion.  

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22 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

Good point.  I figured since ravens can fly thousands of miles in few hours maybe people can have babies and them grow up in a few episodes too lol.

Happened with Sam's baby. He went from an infant for 3 seasons to a damn kindergartner in about 2 hours.

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I really hope this wasn't mean to give the impression he loved Daenerys. In many ways to me it seems kind of pointless and stupid. First of all if it is about him loving her it really is too late in the show to develop into anything. Also given the fact he's a dwarf, a smart dwarf and was pretty crushed by Shae it seems highy unlikely he'd even let himself get so attached. At least not so attached that the best way to reveal his feelings is through an onminous perving and not just some passing joke line when he is drunk.

So I see it as two things:

1) Tyrion wants to be King. If Daenerys marries Jon he would most likely nominate Sansa to rule after them if they both die or if Daenerys dies Jon would be king and could remarry and have a child. So he is just upset that his chances of being in charge have greatly decreased.

2) Perhaps he has betrayed them. Cersei might be awful, but she's gone through a lot of awful stuff. On top of that their was a strong emphasis on Cersei blaming Tyrion for tearing their family apart and her losing her children, then the scene ends with him learning she's pregnant. He's basically been guilt tripped into not as much saving Cersei, but the Lannister family. Another part to it as well is that whilst he might be torn about betraying them it seems like his best option. Cersei most likely laid down the law and told Tyrion she wouldn't help and just fight whoever is left after the War in the North. As it stands after all the chaos in the North the odds will be in Cersei's favour.

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I think it was significant that what we saw of the negotiation ended with Tyrion realizing Cersei is pregnant. I think he made her promises about her child, and I think he probably told Cersei Dany cannot have kids, a huge betrayal. A real union or marriage to Jon could complicate any promises he made to Cersei about her own child. 

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I think that Tyrion received a raven with the news of Jon's parentage. He was on his way to tell them about it when he saw Jon creeping into Dany's room. That is why he looks so troubled.

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12 minutes ago, QueenZaidat said:

I think that Tyrion received a raven with the news of Jon's parentage. He was on his way to tell them about it when he saw Jon creeping into Dany's room. That is why he looks so troubled.

With Bran at the controls it is certainly possible for a raven to find a ship at sea but this would be the first occurrence.  I do not think Bran or Sam would trust this to a written note that is subject to interception but again if Bran is controlling the raven then that is less of an issue.  I also do not think that Bran or Sam have access to a secret code that Tyrion only could read.

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Okay, I've watched the episode three times now. A few things stuck out to me. Tyrion is not jealous of Jon as a romantic rival for Daenerys, nor is he worried that Daenerys will put him aside as an adviser. Something else happened in there.

Jaime: My brother has always been a champion of the downtrodden.

Bronn: We're about to become the downtrodden.

Tyrion was resolute about Cersei having nothing and no one to continue fighting for, which was his best argument to get her to submit. Then he found out she's pregnant and his whole demeanor changed. We saw nothing of the conversation after that, but somehow he got Cersei to at least agree to pretend she was going to let her armies fight with Daenerys and the North. Whether or not she knew he was lying, and therefore playing him, he said something to convince her to do that much. During the part of the conversation we did see, Tyrion said "I don't want to destroy our family. I never have."

Dany's line earlier in the season, "perhaps you don't want to hurt your family after all," was prophetic, I think. Tyrion had no qualms about hurting Cersei, but he did about hurting Jaime. And Cersei and Tyrion also had a conversation there about how much he loved Tommen and Myrcella.

Could he live with herself if he hurt Jaime's child? I think that's the key.

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42 minutes ago, QueenZaidat said:

I think that Tyrion received a raven with the news of Jon's parentage. He was on his way to tell them about it when he saw Jon creeping into Dany's room. That is why he looks so troubled.

Bang on, the previous scene was the news of Jon's parentage and Tyrion who even though he likes Jon a lot, wants Dany to rule..... so wanted to tell Dany on her own... before Jon finds out he is the rightful heir.

Only part I don't get is why he didn't just ask Dany for one minute alone before they hooked up....it wasn't too late... they were just going into the room

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Somehow, Tyrion may know about who Jon actually is.  Could be a raven or could be old stories.  Even LF seemed to indicate that there was something more worth knowing about Rhaegar and Lyanna.  No reason why Tyrion could not know it too.  Up to this point, he has watched Jon and Dany but now it has moved beyond his control and this is going to cause problems. 

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