Why is Jon's name Aegon?

[Jaime F Lannister]

26 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

That would be cute if true -- unfortunately, it does not appear to be. The best evidence for names in the North would be the Stark family tree, and the name Jon does not appear on it at all (Brandon and then Benjen appear to be most common). The two characters other than Jon Snow that are introduced to the readers are from the Vale (Jon Arryn) or the stormlands (Jon Connington).

While Aegon is the most common Targ name -- I don't think we have any evidence that it was the most common Valyrian name -- but I will give you half credit as it is the most common Targ name, after all.

Thanks for half the credit. I can now buy Bronn the Castle that was promised.

[Ingelheim]

10 minutes ago, good girl said:

Yes I think the vision of Rhaegar, a woman and a baby in the HotU is Jon's birth.

Timelines don't fit. Rhaegar was dead way before Jon was born. 

[Lady Sansa Stark]

13 minutes ago, good girl said:

Yes I think the vision of Rhaegar, a woman and a baby in the HotU is Jon's birth.

Rhaegar died before Jon was born, though.. 

Also, come to think of it. That vision disproves the whole 'Rhaegar thought Jon was the PTWP'. Rhaegar there talks about Aegon having the Song of Ice and Fire, and the fact that 'there needs to be one more' (i.e. Jon). No PTWP, just another head of the dragon. Jon being named Aegon just involves some mind-boggling 'logic'.

[UnmaskedLurker]

3 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Timelines don't fit. Rhaegar was dead way before Jon was born. 

I made that point already -- and she claimed that we don't really know that and that time between Rhaegar leaving ToJ and Ned showing up at ToJ may not have been that long and thus Jon could have been born before Rhaegar left ToJ. I don't buy that analysis -- but gg seems to be convinced of its plausibility.

[the tower of albion]

Has the prophecy Rhaegar read got something to do with. The prince that was promised, not a king that was promised or Queen but a prince / princess. His Son Aegon by his Dornish wife would eventually become king. Prince that was promised, to do what? Restore the blood line, defeat the others? (the long night has nothing to do with Targaryen prophecies) or bring about the return of Dragons but that would be Dany and Rhaegar misread the prophecy. I wonder if it will be revealed in the show.

[Ingelheim]

6 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I made that point already -- and she claimed that we don't really know that and that time between Rhaegar leaving ToJ and Ned showing up at ToJ may not have been that long and thus Jon could have been born before Rhaegar left ToJ. I don't buy that analysis -- but gg seems to be convinced of its plausibility.

Yeah, not a chance. Rhaegar had to ride from the ToJ to KL, and then to the Trident. Then Ned went to KL, to Storm's End, and to the ToJ. 

At least 2 months between Rhaegar leaving and Ned arriving.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

1 minute ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I made that point already -- and she claimed that we don't really know that and that time between Rhaegar leaving ToJ and Ned showing up at ToJ may not have been that long and thus Jon could have been born before Rhaegar left ToJ. I don't buy that analysis -- but gg seems to be convinced of its plausibility.

As per the books, there were quite some months between Rhaegar leaving the Tower of Joy, and Ned showing up right? There's the trip to the Trident, the battle and death of Rhaegar, the subsequent sack of King's Landing, the breaking of the siege of Storm's End, and THEN there's the Tower of Joy - with Ned arriving with Jon in Winterfell when he was just a few months old (a couple of months younger than Robb). How would people even think that theory is plausible, then? 

[UnmaskedLurker]

1 minute ago, the tower of albion said:

Has the prophecy Rhaegar read got something to do with. The prince that was promised, not a king that was promised or Queen but a prince / princess. His Son Aegon by his Dornish wife would eventually become king. Prince that was promised, to do what? Restore the blood line, defeat the others? (the long night has nothing to do with Targaryen prophecies) or bring about the return of Dragons but that would be Dany and Rhaegar misread the prophecy. I wonder if it will be revealed in the show.

From the information in the books, the promised prince is expected to save humanity from a second "long night" (the first long night being the last time the Others confronted mankind). And the original prophecy -- according to Maester Aemon -- referred to the "dragon" that was promised (dragons having no gender which is why he thought Dany might be TPTWP) and not actually a prince (prophecies commonly using animals or other symbols to represent the human objects of the prophecy). The Targs came to believe that the promised prince or promised dragon would be a Targ -- and the woods witch confirmed this belief by stating that the prince would come from the Aerys/Rhaella line.

So when you state that the "long night" has nothing to do with Targ prophecies -- I don't know what you mean. The prophecy is older than the Targs and when originally given was understood to reference humanity's savior from a second long night. Only later did the reference come to be understood to be a Targ -- which could not have been understood originally as the prophecy is apparently older than House Targ. So first it was understood as a prophecy about the second long night -- and then later a prophecy about the promised prince being a Targ (specifically a Targ from the Aerys/Rhaella line).

As to the show revealing any answers, no, the show has basically ignored the prophecy.

[the tower of albion]

1 minute ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

From the information in the books, the promised prince is expected to save humanity from a second "long night" (the first long night being the last time the Others confronted mankind). And the original prophecy -- according to Maester Aemon -- referred to the "dragon" that was promised (dragons having no gender which is why he thought Dany might be TPTWP) and not actually a prince (prophecies commonly using animals or other symbols to represent the human objects of the prophecy). The Targs came to believe that the promised prince or promised dragon would be a Targ -- and the woods witch confirmed this belief by stating that the prince would come from the Aerys/Rhaella line.

So when you state that the "long night" has nothing to do with Targ prophecies -- I don't know what you mean. The prophecy is older than the Targs and when originally given was understood to reference humanity's savior from a second long night. Only later did the reference come to be understood to be a Targ -- which could not have been understood originally as the prophecy is apparently older than House Targ. So first it was understood as a prophecy about the second long night -- and then later a prophecy about the promised prince being a Targ (specifically a Targ from the Aerys/Rhaella line).

As to the show revealing any answers, no, the show has basically ignored the prophecy.

Aerys/Rhaella line. If you consider the male blood line. If you consider the female line doesn't the important line become Blackwood? (Betha)

[UnmaskedLurker]

15 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Yeah, not a chance. Rhaegar had to ride from the ToJ to KL, and then to the Trident. Then Ned went to KL, to Storm's End, and to the ToJ. 

At least 2 months between Rhaegar leaving and Ned arriving.

 

14 minutes ago, Lady Sansa Stark said:

As per the books, there were quite some months between Rhaegar leaving the Tower of Joy, and Ned showing up right? There's the trip to the Trident, the battle and death of Rhaegar, the subsequent sack of King's Landing, the breaking of the siege of Storm's End, and THEN there's the Tower of Joy - with Ned arriving with Jon in Winterfell when he was just a few months old (a couple of months younger than Robb). How would people even think that theory is plausible, then? 

While I generally agree with both of your posts, there is one nagging issue that makes me wonder. There is a suggestion that Jon may be older than officially reported. There are statements about bastards growing faster than true-born, which of course is nonsense and thus might be a suggestion that Jon just appeared to grow faster because he really was older. And if Ned lied about Jon's age -- presumably to ensure that Robb was the older son and thus clearly the heir (even though Jon would not have a claim as a bastard -- but Cat was a bit paranoid so eliminate one concern by making Jon younger than Robb even though actually older).

So if Jon really is a couple of months older than reported, he could have been born before Rheagar left ToJ. The problem with that theory, however, is that Lyanna almost certainly had all the markings of someone who died from complications relating to childbirth (puerperal fever). And women in the Middle Ages died within a week or two from such an infection -- they would not linger for 2 months. So unless GRRM is having Lyanna be sick with a serious infection for at least 2 months -- which is a fairly unlikely situation -- the timeline again does not work.

[UnmaskedLurker]

9 minutes ago, the tower of albion said:

Aerys/Rhaella line. If you consider the male blood line. If you consider the female line doesn't the important line become Blackwood? (Betha)

I have no idea what you mean. Betha was the grandmother of Aerys and Rhaella. Jaehaerys, the son of Betha and father of Aerys and Rhaella is the one who got the prophecy from the woods witch that the promised prince would come from the Aerys/Rhaella line and thus forced them to get married. The "line" being identified is both a male and female line -- the male being Aerys and the female being Rhaella. Specifically, stating that the promised prince would come from their "line" simply means that the promised prince will be a direct descendant of Aerys AND Rhaella, i.e., a child, grandchild, great grandchild, great-great grandchild, etc. Given that Aerys and Rhaella are both grandchildren of Beth, in a sense they are from her "line" -- but I have no idea where you get "Betha" as the significant matriarch in this situation. Each generation obviously must include a man and a woman to reproduce. So what exactly is your point?

[Ingelheim]

11 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

 

While I generally agree with both of your posts, there is one nagging issue that makes me wonder. There is a suggestion that Jon may be older than officially reported. There are statements about bastards growing faster than true-born, which of course is nonsense and thus might be a suggestion that Jon just appeared to grow faster because he really was older. And if Ned lied about Jon's age -- presumably to ensure that Robb was the older son and thus clearly the heir (even though Jon would not have a claim as a bastard -- but Cat was a bit paranoid so eliminate one concern by making Jon younger than Robb even though actually older).

So if Jon really is a couple of months older than reported, he could have been born before Rheagar left ToJ. The problem with that theory, however, is that Lyanna almost certainly had all the markings of someone who died from complications relating to childbirth (puerperal fever). And women in the Middle Ages died within a week or two from such an infection -- they would not linger for 2 months. So unless GRRM is having Lyanna be sick with a serious infection for at least 2 months -- which is a fairly unlikely situation -- the timeline again does not work.

The key to this argument is not Jon's size, it's the death of his mother.

We are told Lyanna died on a bed of blood, so we have to assume she died giving birth to Jon, or at least, one or two days after it. The Show seems to prove this by having her die just like that: on a bed full of blood.

She did not die of puerperal fever. She died, literaly, of giving birth to Jon. She was bleeding out when Ned arrived.

So, no, it's IMPOSSIBLE for Rhaegar to have witnessed Jon's birth. The vision of THOTU is about Rhaegar and Elia.

[UnmaskedLurker]

1 minute ago, Ingelheim said:

The key to this argument is not Jon's size, it's the death of his mother.

We are told Lyanna died on a bed of blood, so we have to assume she died giving birth to Jon, or at least, one or two days after it. The Show seems to prove this by having her die just like that: on a bed full of blood.

That is basically the point I make in the second sentence of the post you were responding to. In the real world -- women died within 3 - 10 days (generally) from puerperal fever. Maybe GRRM is giving Lyanna a Westeros only disease (sort of like grayscale does not really exist) in which she might linger for over 2 months. But that seems fairly far-fetched. More likely, Jon is no more than 10 days old (and probably not even that) when Ned arrives at ToJ. Thus, Rhaegar was dead before Jon was born.

[Khal Al]

41 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Yes, but we are also told she was kind, fragile and sweet...I just don't see it, though Martin could go that way.

This was a description of her by Barristan Selmy who was madly in love with her and apt to see the good in her. The reliability of the narrators in the book would have to be questionable. Especially when they are infatuated. I'm sticking with Rhaegar isn't the father of original Aegon. Looking at the wiki regarding textual evidence of annulment, it seems only a King can annul his marriage. "A marriage that has not been consummated can be set aside by the High Septon or a Council of Faith.^[75][33] Neither bride nor groom needs to be present for an annulment; However, it must be requested by at least one of the wedded pair.^[76] Divorce in Westeros is not common.^[77] Nonetheless, a king is able to put his queen aside – even if she has given birth to his children – and marry another." . When you look at Gerold Dayne, there are people in Dorne that have the Valyrian look.

[Ingelheim]

3 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

That is basically the point I make in the second sentence of the post you were responding to. In the real world -- women died within 3 - 10 days (generally) from puerperal fever. Maybe GRRM is giving Lyanna a Westeros only disease (sort of like grayscale does not really exist) in which she might linger for over 2 months. But that seems fairly far-fetched. More likely, Jon is no more than 10 days old (and probably not even that) when Ned arrives at ToJ. Thus, Rhaegar was dead before Jon was born.

Yes I saw it, I was just editing my post, I already wrote that I don't even think she died of puerperal fever: I believe she simply bled out.

[Apoplexy]

4 minutes ago, Khal Al said:

This was a description of her by Barristan Selmy who was madly in love with her and apt to see the good in her. The reliability of the narrators in the book would have to be questionable. Especially when they are infatuated. I'm sticking with Rhaegar isn't the father of original Aegon. 

If I'm not mistaken Barristan Selmy was smitten by Ashara Dayne.

And while it's possible that Elia cheated, I see it out of character for her. It has been said that Rhaegar's marriage was complicated, but I don't we have any textual evidence yet that Elia was unfaithful.

[UnmaskedLurker]

6 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Yes I saw it, I was just editing my post, I already wrote that I don't even think she died of puerperal fever: I believe she simply bled out.

Ah -- that is possible -- but whether bled out right after giving birth or dying of puerperal fever does not change the conclusion that in either case, Lyanna would not have survived two months after giving birth. Women did not survive two months after giving birth with puerperal fever. And by the way, excessive bleeding is a symptom of puerperal fever, so the bed of blood visual works for either potential cause of death.

[Maid So Fair]

1 hour ago, Ingelheim said:

Timelines don't fit. Rhaegar was dead way before Jon was born. 

It's a vision, it's not necessarily meant to be logistically accurate but just a metaphor. Jon's not a flower either. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

1 minute ago, Maid So Fair said:

It's a vision, it's not necessarily meant to be logistically accurate but just a metaphor. Jon's not a flower either. 

The post being responded to was claiming that the scene is an actual vision of Rhaegar with Lyanna shortly after the birth of Jon/Aegon. So while I have different issues with your interpretation (which I can get into at some point if desired), the specific post at issue was making that specific claim.

[Ingelheim]

7 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Ah -- that is possible -- but whether bled out right after giving birth or dying of puerperal fever does not change the conclusion that in either case, Lyanna would not have survived two months after giving birth. Women did not survive two months after giving birth with puerperal fever. And by the way, excessive bleeding is a symptom of puerperal fever, so the bed of blood visual works for either potential cause of death.

Yes, absolutely, at the end it's all the same: it's impossible for Rhaegar to have been there for Jon's birth.

I just think she died the very same day she gave birth to Jon. It's more poetic and tragic; Ned arrived a few hours too late. It would also fit with Martin's style.