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Why didn't Littlefinger bring up Sansa's complicity?

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

But that wasn't my point.  My point was that why not defend himself by sowing distrust of Sansa?  Why fall down and beg like a coward?  

Because by that point, he'd already confessed to murdering Lysa, which is all Sansa needed to condemn him to death. Rookie mistake. Not that it would have made any difference for reasons that have already been stated, but that was dumb.

It did occur to me as it has to others that LF was facing a similar situation to that Tyrion faced in Season 1 at the Eyrie: a ruling lady who was determined to have him executed and a hostile group of lords/ladies who would happily see him dead. Unlike LF, though, he refused to confess to the crimes of which he'd been accused and insisted on a trial by combat.

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11 hours ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

I recall that it was a difficult decision for her but she was afraid she would be blamed for Lysa's murder. She was fresh on the run under accusations of having killed Joffrey. She had no way to know of the Lords of the Vale would send her back to Cersie. She choose to lie thinking it the safer option and planned to use it against LF at a later time of she needed.

Sure. And that's exactly why it's strange that she chose to use Lysa's murder as the first charge against LF. There was no reason to feel confident he wouldn't bring that up: "Of course I didn't kill her, as you yourself testified to the Vale Lords, who are all here right now."

If she then explains that it was a difficult decision for her, she was afraid she'd be blamed for Lysa's murder, she was on the run under accusations of having killed Joffrey, but really, honestly, it was LF who did it… that no longer sounds like a compelling case against LF.

The only reason her case went well is that he instead answered that yes, he killed Lysa, but it was for Sansa. Now he's confessing to his crimes and trying to beg his way to mercy from Sansa, so her trial is on track to convicting him. And, again, I can buy that response from LF, but I can't buy Sansa being confident that's the only response he could have made.

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19 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

One wonders then, other than plot contrivance, why he stayed in WF if he had no allies?  People were telling me just a week ago that Sansa "needed" him to keep the Vale army, indeed, Sansa said it herself.

But that wasn't my point.  My point was that why not defend himself by sowing distrust of Sansa?  Why fall down and beg like a coward?  

Ugh, I'm glad he's dead, glad the drama was fake drama and Arya can go back to being a fan favorite, but that storyline was so, so poorly done on every level.

Because till the very last moment, LF was trying to make Sansa forgive him. I've said it in another post, but to me, LF was simply outplayed by Sansa. She mentioned the murder of Lysa Arryn and Jon Arryn first because Lord Royce was already there, and we know he was a truly loyal servant of the Arryns. 

If he had accused Sansa of anything, LF would have lost all chance of surviving. The problem is, LF believed that chance actually existed, when it did not: he was already a corpse, he simply did not know it yet. He tried to win back Sansa's trust till the very end, and only after he asks her for a fair defense and realizes Sansa has already made her decision, he starts to get what's actually going on, and asks Lord Royce for protection.

LF was outplayed, nothing more. It was a battle he would have never won, no matter how good or persuasive had his defense been. 

What happened in that hall was not a trial, it was an execution. LF's fate was sealed way before anyone walkied into that room.

By the way, LF's demise had everything to do with the fact that, creepy or not, he was actually "in love" with Sansa. A twisted, abusing and creepy way of loving, but love anyway. He did not want to kill her, or blame her. He wanted to marry her.

Edited by Ingelheim

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On 8/28/2017 at 5:07 AM, Iotun said:

And Littlefinger believes and understands immediately, and rightly so, that being on Sansa's good graces is the only way to survive the night

Exactly.... He made the split second decision that he was going to try to bs his way out of it by appealing to her rather than confronting her. But he was dead either way. 

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14 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

By the way, LF's demise had everything to do with the fact that, creepy or not, he was actually "in love" with Sansa. A twisted, abusing and creepy way of loving, but love anyway. He did not want to kill her, or blame her. He wanted to marry her.

Only to gain more power. I don't think he ever loved anyone for real.

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24 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Because till the very last moment, LF was trying to make Sansa forgive him. I've said it in another post, but to me, LF was simply outplayed by Sansa. She mentioned the murder of Lysa Arryn and Jon Arryn first because Lord Royce was already there, and we know he was a truly loyal servant of the Arryns. 

If he had accused Sansa of anything, LF would have lost all chance of surviving. The problem is, LF believed that chance actually existed, when it did not: he was already a corpse, he simply did not know it yet. He tried to win back Sansa's trust till the very end, and only after he asks her for a fair defense and realizes Sansa has already made her decision, he starts to get what's actually going on, and asks Lord Royce for protection.

LF was outplayed, nothing more. It was a battle he would have never won, no matter how good or persuasive had his defense been. 

What happened in that hall was not a trial, it was an execution. LF's fate was sealed way before anyone walkied into that room.

By the way, LF's demise had everything to do with the fact that, creepy or not, he was actually "in love" with Sansa. A twisted, abusing and creepy way of loving, but love anyway. He did not want to kill her, or blame her. He wanted to marry her.

This right here.  There was nothing LF could do in that hall- Sansa had already decided to murder him and even pointing to Sansa's "complicity" in Lysa's murder wasn't changing the fact that LF lost his only chance of survival once Sansa brought this up, depriving him of the protection of Royce and the army of the Vale.  

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1 hour ago, Ingelheim said:

Because till the very last moment, LF was trying to make Sansa forgive him. I've said it in another post, but to me, LF was simply outplayed by Sansa. She mentioned the murder of Lysa Arryn and Jon Arryn first because Lord Royce was already there, and we know he was a truly loyal servant of the Arryns. 

If he had accused Sansa of anything, LF would have lost all chance of surviving. The problem is, LF believed that chance actually existed, when it did not: he was already a corpse, he simply did not know it yet. He tried to win back Sansa's trust till the very end, and only after he asks her for a fair defense and realizes Sansa has already made her decision, he starts to get what's actually going on, and asks Lord Royce for protection.

LF was outplayed, nothing more. It was a battle he would have never won, no matter how good or persuasive had his defense been. 

What happened in that hall was not a trial, it was an execution. LF's fate was sealed way before anyone walkied into that room.

By the way, LF's demise had everything to do with the fact that, creepy or not, he was actually "in love" with Sansa. A twisted, abusing and creepy way of loving, but love anyway. He did not want to kill her, or blame her. He wanted to marry her.

Hmmm.  But, wouldn't Royce remember that it was SANSA who told him that LF saved her and that Lysa threw herself out the moon door?

 

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I read about the cut scene whether Sansa decides to ask Bran if Arya plans to kill her before she moves against Arya. Then Bran spills the beans about Littlefinger. They only cut it for purposes of keeping the audience in suspense. But it confirms what many people already suspected.

Namely, that Sansa and Arya did not play Littlefinger at all. They were both idiots. Arya turned completely against Sansa and scared her half to death. Sansa had to go to Bran and have him put the pieces together for her. So Deus Ex Machina saved the day. If there wasn't conveniently a trusted brother around who can see everything across time and space, Sansa would likely have had Arya banished from Winterfell.

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52 minutes ago, Lorathi said:

I read about the cut scene whether Sansa decides to ask Bran if Arya plans to kill her before she moves against Arya. Then Bran spills the beans about Littlefinger. They only cut it for purposes of keeping the audience in suspense. But it confirms what many people already suspected.

Nope. For whatever reason, they did cut it, so it's not a part of the story, hence it can confirm (or disprove) nothing.

I'm all for berating this season's seriously poor storytelling, but we can't honestly use against them what they didn't show.

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22 hours ago, Lorathi said:


That's why a lot of people got frustrated with it. They completely altered the book plot, which would be fine if they had improved or streamlined it. But they didn't.

Now that's unfair. First, it can hardly be "altering the book", considering that "the book" in question (TWOW? ADOS?) hasn't been yet published, gods only know if, and when, it will be. Second, with clearing the board of figures, leaving the stinky Essos behind, knocking down the Wall and preparing everything for the final season, "streamlining" is the one thing they did accomplish.

They will get to say "the end" in 2018 (and go on making money on some sequels, prequels, sidequels, companion shows, whatevs). And GRRM?...

23 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

One wonders then, other than plot contrivance, why he stayed in WF if he had no allies?  People were telling me just a week ago that Sansa "needed" him to keep the Vale army, indeed, Sansa said it herself.

But that wasn't my point.  My point was that why not defend himself by sowing distrust of Sansa?  Why fall down and beg like a coward? 

The weapon he wields against Sansa doesn't look all that powerful. His crime is cold-blooded murder, hers - not telling on him some time sooner? Hardly comparable, especially that Sansa bringing it up finally would mitigate her sin even further. The lords of the Vale would still want Littlefinger's blood.

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4 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Hmmm.  But, wouldn't Royce remember that it was SANSA who told him that LF saved her and that Lysa threw herself out the moon door?

 

Sure, but Sansa could always say (and it's actually true) that she was scared, a little girl, and trying her best to save her life after months of beatings and humilliations and that LF manipulated her. It's not like she was an adult that actively participated in the murder.

LF knew this. It would have been an extremly weak defense on his part, and it would have precipitated his death.

LF was dead way before he walked into that hall. If you actually notice, the only Lord in that room was Royce. The rest were Stark soldiers and Arya and the Maester. Sansa wanted to show Royce she had a legitimate reason to execute him. Once LF admitted to Lysa's murder, he was done. 

Edited by Ingelheim

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LF was outplayed because the writers wanted LF to be outplayed.  There isn't much logic in anything Littlefinger has done since he left the Vale and the more you try to figure out the logic behind the scenes the worse off they come across. 

The scene was meant to be a shocker twist that no one would see coming and the logic of it really isn't something the show writers have shown much concern for when they write their own material.

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3 hours ago, Lorathi said:

I read about the cut scene whether Sansa decides to ask Bran if Arya plans to kill her before she moves against Arya. Then Bran spills the beans about Littlefinger. They only cut it for purposes of keeping the audience in suspense. But it confirms what many people already suspected.

Namely, that Sansa and Arya did not play Littlefinger at all. They were both idiots. Arya turned completely against Sansa and scared her half to death. Sansa had to go to Bran and have him put the pieces together for her. So Deus Ex Machina saved the day. If there wasn't conveniently a trusted brother around who can see everything across time and space, Sansa would likely have had Arya banished from Winterfell.

To be honest, I never believed that Sansa and Arya we playing LF based on the scenes that did make it to screen. But I don't think less of either Sansa or Arya for being manipulated by LF, who is a pro at it after all. And although now we'll never know, I believe that Snasa and Arya would've eventually made up even if Bran wasn't around.

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4 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

LF was outplayed because the writers wanted LF to be outplayed.  There isn't much logic in anything Littlefinger has done since he left the Vale and the more you try to figure out the logic behind the scenes the worse off they come across. 

The scene was meant to be a shocker twist that no one would see coming and the logic of it really isn't something the show writers have shown much concern for when they write their own material.

To be fair, everything LF did was to gain power. He became lord protector of the vale and tried to control the north through the boltons after leaving the vale. And I believe Sansa is somehow his weakness, as creepy as the prospect is. Which is why he came to Sansa's aid when she asked for his help.

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48 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Sure, but Sansa could always say (and it's actually true) that she was scared, a little girl, and trying her best to save her life after months of beatings and humilliations and that LF manipulated her. It's not like she was an adult that actively participated in the murder.

LF knew this. It would have been an extremly weak defense on his part, and it would have precipitated his death.

LF was dead way before he walked into that hall. If you actually notice, the only Lord in that room was Royce. The rest were Stark soldiers and Arya and the Maester. Sansa wanted to show Royce she had a legitimate reason to execute him. Once LF admitted to Lysa's murder, he was done. 

Why would Royce care?  LOL.  LF already threatened his life, showing Royce that he was totally expendable, the idea that Royce would have any loyalty to LF is silly...the show is silly...and forgets what it does from year to year.  Royce in a more realistic show would have attempted to kill, conspired to kill or already killed LF, both to protect himself and to prevent LF corrupting influence on his liege lord.  

Sure, Sansa can say anything she wants, the point was that LF doing NOTHING, just going down without a fight is out of character.  He turned on the Tully sisters didn't he? Why wouldnt he turn on Sansa too?  

Because the plot demanded it.

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40 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

To be fair, everything LF did was to gain power. He became lord protector of the vale and tried to control the north through the boltons after leaving the vale. And I believe Sansa is somehow his weakness, as creepy as the prospect is. Which is why he came to Sansa's aid when she asked for his help.

Which was silly considering he had the military might to take the North and did, so both he and the Bolton's betrayed the Lannisters for virtually no gain, and his greatest betrayal of Sansa was marrying her to Ramsay.  I can't see a single thing that he gained from that marriage, but it lost him a lot of trust.

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10 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

To be honest, I never believed that Sansa and Arya we playing LF based on the scenes that did make it to screen. But I don't think less of either Sansa or Arya for being manipulated by LF, who is a pro at it after all. And although now we'll never know, I believe that Snasa and Arya would've eventually made up even if Bran wasn't around.

The whole thing was absurd.

And no, after reuniting after all that time with everything they've been through, learned and grown, LF should not have been able to turn the sisters against each other so easily.

Yes, Sansa and Arya were never close, but they did love each other and it would take a hell of a lot more than a few suspicions to make them into true enemies of each other. Nothing LF instigated on screen should have resulted in what we got from Sansa and Arya on screen. It was stupid and not in character for either Arya or Sansa.

Anyway, I believe the fighting in episode 5 was real. Arya was suspicious of Sansa's motives, yes, but I doubt she really thought Sansa would truly betray Jon. I think she was testing Sansa.

Episode 6 I think their fight about the letter was real and when Sansa asked Arya what she was going to do with it and Arya replied "I dont know yet" genuinely made Sansa nervous Arya would show it to the Northern lords, which led to Sansa snooping in Arya's room.

Then when Sansa talked to LF I think she already had minor unproven suspicions about LF playing her so tested him by all the talk about Arya "I dont know her anymore", "she would if she thought I was going to betray Jon"...I think she was curious to see how LF would respond and whether he would play her against Arya, even though she may have still been unsure about Arya herself.

Sansa still was nervous about the letter so tried to find it in Aryas room. Arya caught her and was honest when Sansa asked her questions, up until the Game of Faces. Arya explained how the game works and I think was using it to lead Sansa to a conclusion about her (Arya), herself and also Littlefinger. 

The Game of Faces was all a test, it was never a threat on Sansa's life. Arya essentially was goving Sansa a message - informing her what Arya had learned with the Faceless Men and what she was now capable of, but also that "I am not your enemy" so she was ultimately on Sansa's side and meant her no harm. Giving Sansa the dagger hilt first proved that and also reinforced to Sansa that Arya had no desire to wear pretty dresses or be Lady of Winterfell

Arya had caught Sansa alone and could have killed her then and there with Sansa (no fighter herself) not being able to stop Arya. But she didnt. Arya instead handed Sansa a weapon and then turned her back on her and left the room. Sansa would have immediately known that Arya meant her no harm (at least then), because if she did, that was the perfect opportunity to do it. I think Arya and Sansa already both had suspicions about LF trying to manipulate things then, but had no specific evidence.

After the Game of Faces, Sansa knew where Arya stood and I think went to LF specifically to test him. When he inferred that Arya wanted to be Lady of WF, Sansa was certain LF was trying to set her against Arya. She then went to Bran (offscreen), probably with Arya too and got him to fill in the details.

They then set the trap for LF. The whole trial was a farce and was never about Arya and all 3 of them knew that.

Its very likely Lord Royce at least was also informed about it before the "trial".

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

Which was silly considering he had the military might to take the North and did, so both he and the Bolton's betrayed the Lannisters for virtually no gain, and his greatest betrayal of Sansa was marrying her to Ramsay.  I can't see a single thing that he gained from that marriage, but it lost him a lot of trust.

While LF had the numbers to defeat Ramsay, it would be hard convincing the vale to fight for him, just for the sake of conquering the north. LF offered Sansa to the Boltons, so that he could have an alliance with the north, thus increasing his numbers against cersei. And I suppose the vale joined the battle of the bastards for defending the Starks. And LF saw this as an opportunity to regain his alliance with the north, because he wasn't sure Sansa trusted him till she asked for his help.

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4 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

The whole thing was absurd.

And no, after reuniting after all that time with everything they've been through, learned and grown, LF should not have been able to turn the sisters against each other so easily.

Yes, Sansa and Arya were never close, but they did love each other and it would take a hell of a lot more than a few suspicions to make them into true enemies of each other. Nothing LF instigated on screen should have resulted in what we got from Sansa and Arya on screen. It was stupid and not in character for either Arya or Sansa.

Anyway, I believe the fighting in episode 5 was real. Arya was suspicious of Sansa's motives, yes, but I doubt she really thought Sansa would truly betray Jon. I think she was testing Sansa.

My interpretation of the Sansa Arya scenes was that they were distrustful of each other, which I don't think is out of character for either. They both were testing the other, trying to figure out their motivations. LF tried to take advantage and completely turn them against each other, and failed.

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53 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Why would Royce care?  LOL.  LF already threatened his life, showing Royce that he was totally expendable, the idea that Royce would have any loyalty to LF is silly...the show is silly...and forgets what it does from year to year.  Royce in a more realistic show would have attempted to kill, conspired to kill or already killed LF, both to protect himself and to prevent LF corrupting influence on his liege lord.  

Sure, Sansa can say anything she wants, the point was that LF doing NOTHING, just going down without a fight is out of character.  He turned on the Tully sisters didn't he? Why wouldnt he turn on Sansa too?  

Because the plot demanded it.

Maybe Royce thought it dishonorable to conspire against the protector of the vale. Which is why he would need proof to execute LF, despite of how much he disliked him.

And LF wasn't liked by anybody in that room. Accusing Sansa of being complicit in the murder, when Sansa denied it could've worked against LF. And anyways, Sansa was indeed a little girl then, so most people would've blamed LF for it anyways.

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