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falcotron

Why didn't Littlefinger bring up Sansa's complicity?

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41 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

Which was silly considering he had the military might to take the North and did, so both he and the Bolton's betrayed the Lannisters for virtually no gain, and his greatest betrayal of Sansa was marrying her to Ramsay.  I can't see a single thing that he gained from that marriage, but it lost him a lot of trust.

The reason I think both LF and the Boltons betrayed the Lannisters, is because with Tywin dead and batshit crazy Cersei being in power, House Lannister was weakened and marrying Sansa to Ramsay and getting her knocked up with an heir to both Boltons and Starks would've solidified their claim to Winterfell and ensured that Northern lords wouldn't rebel - a concern more immediate than wrath of Lannisters who are miles away and have other problems. Like Sansa states to LF "he needed my face, the face of Ned Starks daughter".

LF was banking on Stannis and Ramsay destroying each other, or at least one of them dying and another being weakened enough so that he could swoop in at a rift moment and use the Vale lords to rescue Sansa. It's really stupid that he gave Sansa to a psychopath for an indeterminate amount of time (what if she killed herself/went mad/was mutilated like Theon), but perhaps he expected Roose to keep Ramsay at check - in the books Roose explicitly tells him to not provoke Northern lords by torturing FauxArya. 

 

 

 

 

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Because it's very badly written. That entire plot was directed at the audience from Sansa and Arya arguing in private to that final dun dun dun surprise that's not really a surprise when she's addressing Arya then turns to Littlefinger, it's just dumb, they weren't trying to trick Baelish, they were trying to trick the viewer and it's obvious. They needed to get rid of Littlefinger and did it in the simplest way they could, I wouldn't expect them to keep him in character and actually give it a good go of worming his way out of it, they could have even had the lords start to be slightly convinced before Arya slashed him up just to give the scene a shade of grey, but nah. Honestly why did they even need to trick him? Just drag him to the hall and kill him because that's what they basically did anyway. 

This show is just about the spectacle and gotcha moments now, nothing else. Writing be damned. 

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1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

My interpretation of the Sansa Arya scenes was that they were distrustful of each other, which I don't think is out of character for either. They both were testing the other, trying to figure out their motivations. LF tried to take advantage and completely turn them against each other, and failed.

Yes, this. Many fans seem to refuse to take things at face value, imagine something more complicated that doesn't actually make sense, and then complain that it doesn't make sense. But if you actually take what we see, as you've done, then it makes a lot more sense.

Arya flat out says that she doesn't trust Sansa because Sansa is driven by fear, and people driven by fear can be manipulated into betraying others. There's no trickery there; that's what she actually thinks. And that explains everything she does. She's pushing Sansa to try to break her. If Sansa stands up to it, and then takes down LF in her own way, Arya will be happy. (Which is exactly what happens, of course.) But if Sansa breaks and tries to betray the family, Arya will be, well, not happy, but relieved that it happened now, before Sansa could hurt her, rather than later, after her guard was down.

And meanwhile, Arya being a superspy and pretending to be played by LF? No, she was actually being played by LF.

Sansa's struggle, coming to realize that she had to take LF down by playing her game rather than his (or Arya's), makes sense if you don't start throwing in extra assumptions that she figured that out three episodes early and was conspiring with Arya the whole time.

And so on.

And meanwhile, people who deny that LF could possibly feel any kind of love for Sansa, and then complain that his motivations make no sense—that's only because you're denying his actual motivations. He has a conflict between his desire for power and his desire for Sansa, and that's why he screws up.

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On 8/27/2017 at 9:26 PM, falcotron said:

First, I'm happy with the way they resolved the Winterfell plotline in general. Sansa choosing not to fight LF at his own game, or Arya's way, and instead doing it her way, as Lady of Winterfell—that's exactly where her character and this season's plot should have been leading. But I'm not entirely happy with one part of the way they did it.

The first thing Sansa accused LF of was murdering Lysa. But she abetted him in covering up that murder. And he could have said so, and derailed the entire trial.

I can maybe understand why he didn't. He's caught by surprise, he doesn't want to drag his beloved Sansa under the bus with him, he thinks he can still make this all work, etc.

But I can't understand why Sansa would be absolutely sure he wouldn't do it. Or what she could have planned if he had. Lie and say that she'd lied about Lysa's murder? Start playing the "I was a little girl a couple years ago" card right in the middle of trying to stand up as the noble and dignified lady to bring him down?

And the same is generally true for all the dirt that LF could have dumped on Sansa's head.

Also, I think it would have just been a stronger story for her character to lay everything on the table—admit that she abetted him, and that she'd also written the Robb letter out of fear, and so on—to strengthen the case against LF so there's no way to deny or ameliorate his guilt.* In-universe, the risk in putting it all out there, even in her own words at her own time, is significant, but it's still probably lower than the risk of blackmail, and worth doing. And out-of-universe, it's the perfect way to end the story about the things she did wrong out of fear.

---

* I assume the show wanted a pat happy ending to the plot, since they ended the season with it. That's easy. After LF's trial, Sansa says, "And now, Arya, it's up to you to decide whether to demand a trial for the crimes I've confessed to." And then Arya gives a big speech about how the crimes against the Starks cannot be forgiven or pardoned, and ends with "And that's why I demand that you remain as Lady of Winterfell and help bring Cersei down", and they hug and everyone lives happily ever after. But a realistic ending would have also been easy if that wanted that—Arya storms out, but meanwhile, Sansa weathers the storm and retains the loyalty of her men, and after a few months the sisters come to each understand and accept what the other one did, and make up.

D & D made little finger stupid. Little finger simply should of denied killing Lysa at all and brought up that Sansa already testified to Lusa commiting suicide. He could of derailed as a powerplay to get rid of himself(since he controls the Vale) and took the entire Vale bacl with him. They had no proof and littlefinger is suppose to be a prodigy on his feet. 

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On 8/28/2017 at 2:00 AM, falcotron said:

All of this sounds like great excuses to use if she'd come clean about everything, but it seems like if she said nothing, then LF raised her complicity, and then she suddenly started giving excuses for it, she'd go from the regal figure justly sentencing the sniveling cowardly murderer to kind of pathetic in the eyes of her court.

But maybe she could have pulled it off better than I'm imagining.

And at least you're trying to answer the question instead of just posting "lol sansa is teh evil" or  "lol the show sucks, that's why I watch it" like some people…

Even if Sansa came clean about evreything, little finger could simply deny anything. They have no real proof against him and he litterally saved a large amount of the people's lifes who were in the courtroom. His men are suppose to be payed very well and he is suppose to spies evreywhere. So even if Sansa is "his judge" and he can't get out of it(which he should be able to get out of it even if Sansa is above him in power which i question) he can just demand a trial by combat. If Sansa choose Arya, realistically Ariya should die.  Ariya went off to train for a few years in assassinating people. She should not be better than knights in combat. She shoild be a good assassin and terribke knight.

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well to be fair I wonder why it was never mentioned that she lied for little finger about her aunts death. Because the vale lords were ready to kill LF for it until sansa helped him

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3 minutes ago, MilesJames said:

Even if Sansa came clean about evreything, little finger could simply deny anything. They have no real proof against him and he litterally saved a large amount of the people's lifes who were in the courtroom. His men are suppose to be payed very well and he is suppose to spies evreywhere. So even if Sansa is "his judge" and he can't get out of it(which he should be able to get out of it even if Sansa is above him in power which i question) he can just demand a trial by combat. If Sansa choose Arya, realistically Ariya should die.  Ariya went off to train for a few years in assassinating people. She should not be better than knights in combat. She shoild be a good assassin and terribke knight.

actually the only people that seemed to be the room were knights of the vale who he put in harms way for his own gain.

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On 8/29/2017 at 2:37 PM, Lorathi said:

It's truly Plot Induced Stupidity, because Littlefinger has any number of reasons to go back to the Vale:

1) He has the Vale lord (Robyn) under his complete control, while Sansa is much more resistant to his manipulations.

2) Winter is hitting the North very hard at this point, and it isn't as cold in the Vale. The North is pretty unbearable during Winter for anyone not used to it.

3) Bran and Arya reveal their hands way too soon. Bran all but tells Littlefinger that he knows all his secrets, and Arya shows him that she can easily kill him. Littlefinger makes it clear in Season 1 that if they could afford to hire a Faceless Man, Dany's death would be guaranteed. Then Arya proves against Brienne in the courtyard that she's every bit as dangerous as their reputation suggests. (Arya still hasn't learned that her best weapon as an assassin is appearing harmless.)

4) The WHITE WALKERS. The Vale lords are already restless in Jon's absence. Surely it's not a hard sell that they should retreat to their impregnable fortress at the Eyrie and fortify their position there. Surely being further away from the army of the undead is a good thing.

It makes no sense for Littlefinger to stay at Winterfell all this time, given the circumstances. He knows that Bran could spill the beans about his various secrets anytime, and Arya could be wearing the face of anyone he tries to plot with or seek help from.

D & D assassinated littlefinger character as soon as he made Sansa marry Ramsey. Makes absolutly no sense whatsoever. 

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3 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

actually the only people that seemed to be the room were knights of the vale who he put in harms way for his own gain.

True but he still saved the king of the North and his army which they respect. Why he is still in Winterfell makes no sense. 

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Just now, MilesJames said:

True but he still saved the king of the North and his army which they respect. Why he is still in Winterfell makes no sense. 

yes but the knights of the vale and lords of the vale hate LF and would love to see him killed. Also I can't remember but did they mention he played a part in killing jon arryn? if they did mention that he played a part in that then they would want him ripped limb from limb because jon arryn was well loved

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Just now, snow is the man said:

yes but the knights of the vale and lords of the vale hate LF and would love to see him killed. Also I can't remember but did they mention he played a part in killing jon arryn? if they did mention that he played a part in that then they would want him ripped limb from limb because jon arryn was well loved

They had no proof he played a part in killing jon Arryn. Little finger should have men who are payed well there or at the very least close by. Some of the lords of the Vale like little finger and many more are bribed by him. Beyond that little finger should of known the trial was going to be about him, it was so obvious. They werent even trying to trick little finger just the viewer. Little finger would not of had any problem paying a expert knight to fught for him. 

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15 minutes ago, MilesJames said:

Even if Sansa came clean about evreything, little finger could simply deny anything. 

Yes, in which case it comes down to he said-she said. People are much more likely to believe her if she's acting like a regal Lady, and has just been totally honest about everything even when it looks bad for her, than if she looks like she's just persecuting him and coming up with excuses to ignore all of his defenses (or if it looks like they're partners in crime and she's turned on him).

19 minutes ago, MilesJames said:

They have no real proof against him

Remember, this isn't about proving charges beyond reasonable doubt to a jury of his peers, it's about getting her court to see the judgment she's going to render as fair. The standards are pretty different.

21 minutes ago, MilesJames said:

So even if Sansa is "his judge" and he can't get out of it(which he should be able to get out of it even if Sansa is above him in power which i question) he can just demand a trial by combat.

Of course Sansa is his judge. And she's above him in power while they're in Winterfell. If they were back in the Vale, that would be a different story (which is why he begs Royce to take him back to the Vale), but they aren't.

As for a trial by combat, who's going to be his champion? The same knights of the Vale who refused to take him back to the Vale?

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15 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Yes, in which case it comes down to he said-she said. People are much more likely to believe her if she's acting like a regal Lady, and has just been totally honest about everything even when it looks bad for her, than if she looks like she's just persecuting him and coming up with excuses to ignore all of his defenses (or if it looks like they're partners in crime and she's turned on him).

Remember, this isn't about proving charges beyond reasonable doubt to a jury of his peers, it's about getting her court to see the judgment she's going to render as fair. The standards are pretty different.

Of course Sansa is his judge. And she's above him in power while they're in Winterfell. If they were back in the Vale, that would be a different story (which is why he begs Royce to take him back to the Vale), but they aren't.

As for a trial by combat, who's going to be his champion? The same knights of the Vale who refused to take him back to the Vale?

Its completly absurb to think he couldn't a great knight to fight for him for so many reasons.

1) White Walkers are approaching. Littlefinger's Wealth is bounless. I will give a fortune to whoever kills Sansa champion for me. (Tons of Knights Volunteer) Knight wants to leaves Westroes with family or seld never returns. 

2) He could offer a castle in Vale to whoever beats Sansa champion. 

3) He saved the lifes of evreyone in Jons army. So some would feel a call to honor to fight for him. 

4) Many of the Lords and knights of the Vale are already bribe

5) He should have body guards

 

Bottom line, if Little finger would of acted like little finger(not fan service to the audience) He would of never admited to killing Lysa. Demanded a trial by combat if that was the only way to get out of winterfell and had an elite knight fight for him. If Ariya fought for Sansa she would be completly outclassesed sinse she is merly an assassin with a few yeara of training. 

 

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59 minutes ago, falcotron said:

he can just demand a trial by combat.

I think there was like, literally no one that would have fought for him. He was still thinking he could turn the tables through clever reasoning when his throat was cut. I'm nit picky about the show, I'm a book reader...(and let's not forget Dance sucked IMO) but I think the winterfell plot was fine and people are being way too critical. 

Some are saying no, they could have just killed him without all the fanfare. Others, no he deserved a trial...

They got him to confess to murdering lysa, in the presence of the knights of the Vale, which was enough to execute him for... and allow them to reject defending him. "I demand your protection and safe escort" Royce: "I think not"

Littlefinger allowed his emotions to cloud his reason and paid for it. Had he not loved/lusted for Sansa I'm certain he would have played things differently. He wanted power at first.. then he wanted both power and Sansa. Big mistake. 

I think his plan was beyond turning Sansa against Arya. It was to turn Jon against Sansa through Sansa harming Arya. Then killing Jon somehow, he could marry Sansa and be Lord of the North, and control the Vale. A powerful position. Alas for him... Killed by his own dagger. 

Sweet :P

 

 

 

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There was nothing he could have said to save himself. Once they closed that door he was there for one purpose and one purpose only. And I would only have to assume there was a convo bet. #TeamStark & Lord Royce behind closed doors where Sansa was like "hey, listen this is what it is." Royce can only respect her- also she is Lady of Winterfell and he is in her home there's no jurisdiction he can lord over her. Now she needs to have SweetRobin's daughter, betroth her to Edmure's son and bring the North, the Vale & the Riverlands all under her control. #SouthronAmbitions

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3 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

While LF had the numbers to defeat Ramsay, it would be hard convincing the vale to fight for him, just for the sake of conquering the north. LF offered Sansa to the Boltons, so that he could have an alliance with the north, thus increasing his numbers against cersei. And I suppose the vale joined the battle of the bastards for defending the Starks. And LF saw this as an opportunity to regain his alliance with the north, because he wasn't sure Sansa trusted him till she asked for his help.

If the Vale cared about the Starks then just helping them regain Winterfell would be motivation enough, no need to marry Sansa off and ally with the Boltons first.  As for allying with the Boltons for increased numbers vs Cersei, that makes little sense.  Cersei was allied with both of them and neither of them made any move to attack Cersei in any way after betraying the Lannisters so why do they need to defend themselves from their ally?  Some posters argue that the Bolton's are breaking their alliance with the Lannisters because Cersei is in charge and they are weakened and they were more worried about the (non-existant on the show at the time) Northern Lords revolting.  It was the Iron Throne that made the Boltons Wardens of the North and legitimized Ramsay as a true Bolton though, and without the Iron Thrones backing the Boltons have no more claim on ruling the north than anyone else.  The show never suggested in any way that the other Northern Lords were any threat to revolt, that is only a book explanation, where in a drastic difference the Fake Arya marriage was a move to strengthen the Lannister/Bolton alliance.

The most reasonable explanation is the writers wanted to consolidate as many scenes as possible and reduce the number of different locations with story lines, and hit certain plot points from the book, regardless of whether the plot point still made sense after the other changes they made.  Some of that is understandable.  You can't have an unlimited cast and you have limited screen time, and you can't have high paid actors go half a season or more with no scenes so combining them where possible gets around that problem. I'm just not a fan of the way they often drastically change things and then force plot points from the book in when the changes they made no longer make that plot point logical.

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3 hours ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

The reason I think both LF and the Boltons betrayed the Lannisters, is because with Tywin dead and batshit crazy Cersei being in power, House Lannister was weakened and marrying Sansa to Ramsay and getting her knocked up with an heir to both Boltons and Starks would've solidified their claim to Winterfell and ensured that Northern lords wouldn't rebel - a concern more immediate than wrath of Lannisters who are miles away and have other problems. Like Sansa states to LF "he needed my face, the face of Ned Starks daughter".

LF was banking on Stannis and Ramsay destroying each other, or at least one of them dying and another being weakened enough so that he could swoop in at a rift moment and use the Vale lords to rescue Sansa. It's really stupid that he gave Sansa to a psychopath for an indeterminate amount of time (what if she killed herself/went mad/was mutilated like Theon), but perhaps he expected Roose to keep Ramsay at check - in the books Roose explicitly tells him to not provoke Northern lords by torturing FauxArya. 

 

 

 

 

Like I said the only reason the Boltons have ANY claim on Winterfell is because the Iron Throne made them Warden of the North.  There was no threat of Northern Rebellion mentioned ever on the show, that is a book only story line, and even if there was it doesn't explain what Littlefinger got out of the deal.  In the books the Fake Arya marriage is also made in part to strengthen the Bolton/Lannister alliance, not destroy it.  Keep in mind that the "weakened" Lannisters were stronger then than they were this season when they conquered all the Tyrell lands, and that realistic travel times for armies is clearly not something the show writers really care anything about.

Stannis and Ramsay would fight regardless of Sansa's presence or Littlefinger's alliance with the Boltons.  If anything the alliance would have expectations for him to back the Boltons against Stannis for no gain on his part. 

The most reasonable explanation is the writers wanted to consolidate as many scenes as possible and reduce the number of different locations with story lines, and hit certain plot points from the book, regardless of whether the plot point still made sense after the other changes they made.  Some of that is understandable.  You can't have an unlimited cast and you have limited screen time, and you can't have high paid actors go half a season or more with no scenes so combining them where possible reduces that problem. I'm just not a fan of the way they often drastically change things and then force plot points from the book in when the changes they made no longer make that plot point logical.  Which is what happened when they forced Sansa into the Fake Arya role.

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It was always my thinking that LF married Sansa to Ramsey as that was a step towards Sansa becoming "Lady of Winterfell" which was necessary for LF to later become "Lord". Not hard to imagine he planned on offing the Boltons at some point. Now, whether he was aware of Ramsey being bat sh*t sadistic crazy? If he loved Sansa then no. If she was just pawn to his power play then it didn't matter. I'm not certain which it was. 

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Sansa would be Lady of Winterfell when Littlefinger took over Winterfell anyway, no need to marry her to Ramsay to earn that title.

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43 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

Sansa would be Lady of Winterfell when Littlefinger took over Winterfell anyway, no need to marry her to Ramsay to earn that title.

But how would he take over Winterfell without the north turning against him? And with what force... The Vale would not support a take over and it would mean instant war.  

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