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falcotron

Why didn't Littlefinger bring up Sansa's complicity?

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Correct me if I'm wrong but at the time Sansa wed Ramsey, Roose was Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North. Roose's Frey wife (walda?) Would have been Lady of Winterfell, not Sansa. 

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On 8/28/2017 at 0:26 AM, falcotron said:

First, I'm happy with the way they resolved the Winterfell plotline in general. Sansa choosing not to fight LF at his own game, or Arya's way, and instead doing it her way, as Lady of Winterfell—that's exactly where her character and this season's plot should have been leading. But I'm not entirely happy with one part of the way they did it.

The first thing Sansa accused LF of was murdering Lysa. But she abetted him in covering up that murder. And he could have said so, and derailed the entire trial.

I can maybe understand why he didn't. He's caught by surprise, he doesn't want to drag his beloved Sansa under the bus with him, he thinks he can still make this all work, etc.

But I can't understand why Sansa would be absolutely sure he wouldn't do it. Or what she could have planned if he had. Lie and say that she'd lied about Lysa's murder? Start playing the "I was a little girl a couple years ago" card right in the middle of trying to stand up as the noble and dignified lady to bring him down?

And the same is generally true for all the dirt that LF could have dumped on Sansa's head.

Also, I think it would have just been a stronger story for her character to lay everything on the table—admit that she abetted him, and that she'd also written the Robb letter out of fear, and so on—to strengthen the case against LF so there's no way to deny or ameliorate his guilt.* In-universe, the risk in putting it all out there, even in her own words at her own time, is significant, but it's still probably lower than the risk of blackmail, and worth doing. And out-of-universe, it's the perfect way to end the story about the things she did wrong out of fear.

---

* I assume the show wanted a pat happy ending to the plot, since they ended the season with it. That's easy. After LF's trial, Sansa says, "And now, Arya, it's up to you to decide whether to demand a trial for the crimes I've confessed to." And then Arya gives a big speech about how the crimes against the Starks cannot be forgiven or pardoned, and ends with "And that's why I demand that you remain as Lady of Winterfell and help bring Cersei down", and they hug and everyone lives happily ever after. But a realistic ending would have also been easy if that wanted that—Arya storms out, but meanwhile, Sansa weathers the storm and retains the loyalty of her men, and after a few months the sisters come to each understand and accept what the other one did, and make up.

It did occur to me while Sansa was talking about Lysa that she was skating pretty close to the edge, but I also assumed then (and still assume now) that the people in that room whose opinions really mattered (Bran, Arya and Royce) all knew the full truth.

In fact, we've got to assume that Bran knew the full truth.

it seems to me that a decision was made that LF was FAR more culpable than Sansa (which is my opinion as well), and that some pretty heavy mitigating circumstances existed for Sansa's small role in covering it up (namely, Lysa had, arguably, just tried to murder Sansa herself, or at least was very close to it, AND, as Sansa told LF after she covered from him with the Lords of the Vale, she had no idea what they might do to HER if she told them the full truth.

Plus, of course, the entire matter was just one item on a list of terrible things LF had done, and was doing.

So, unless and until we are told differently, I'm going to assume that Bran, Arya and Royce all knew the full truth, and were all in agreement that LF was the real snake in the grass, whereas Sansa was, on more than one occasion, a victim of LF's atrocious behavior, not an accomplice.

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21 minutes ago, #teamNightking said:

But how would he take over Winterfell without the north turning against him? And with what force... The Vale would not support a take over and it would mean instant war.  

He did take over Winterfell though, and the North didn't turn against him and he had the Vale's support.  Why would Sansa need to be married to Ramsay to have either the Vale or the North's support?  All he has to do is say he is coming to help liberate the north in Sansa's name, which is pretty much what happened ultimately.

 

17 minutes ago, #teamNightking said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but at the time Sansa wed Ramsey, Roose was Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North. Roose's Frey wife (walda?) Would have been Lady of Winterfell, not Sansa. 


I believe you are correct, but doesn't that completely contradict your earlier idea that he wed Sansa to Ramsay so she would be Lady of Winterfell?

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5 minutes ago, Cron said:

it seems to me that a decision was made that LF was FAR more culpable than Sansa (which is my opinion as well), and that some pretty heavy mitigating circumstances existed for Sansa's small role in covering it up

A decision was made by who? Of course, Sansa thinks LF is far more culpable than herself, and whoever else you think was in on her conspiracy, sure. But the trial isn't about Sansa convincing herself that LF is guilty, it's about her convincing the assembled lords. The whole point of doing a public trial instead of just stabbing him is so that everyone accepts it as justice rather than murder.

So, again, if LF had just said "No, I didn't kill Lysa, as you know because you testified to my innocence in front of all of these people", nobody but her co-conspirators would know he's lying. So how does she respond? "Oh, well, I made a decision with Arya and Royce that you're more culpable than me, so that's why it's OK that I lied." Is that really going to sell anyone that justice is being done?

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10 minutes ago, falcotron said:

A decision was made by who? Of course, Sansa thinks LF is far more culpable than herself, and whoever else you think was in on her conspiracy, sure. But the trial isn't about Sansa convincing herself that LF is guilty, it's about her convincing the assembled lords. The whole point of doing a public trial instead of just stabbing him is so that everyone accepts it as justice rather than murder.

So, again, if LF had just said "No, I didn't kill Lysa, as you know because you testified to my innocence in front of all of these people", nobody but her co-conspirators would know he's lying. So how does she respond? "Oh, well, I made a decision with Arya and Royce that you're more culpable than me, so that's why it's OK that I lied." Is that really going to sell anyone that justice is being done?

Well, like I basically said, I believe the people in that room whose opinions really mattered all knew the full truth.

Bran, Arya, Royce, and, obviously, Sansa herself.

Again, Bran basically HAD to know.  Can't keep secrets from him.

And I agree that Royce was in on it, too.  Certainly, the 3 Starks would have been fools to go into that hearing not knowing in advance that Royce was on their side,  Utter fools.

My strong opinion is that Bran, Arya, Sansa and Royce all conferred, and then collectively decided and agreed upon how to handle it, and that is what we saw.

INDEED, note that if anyone there had the power to absolve Sansa of what she did in covering it up, it would have been Royce.

I would say the Vale had jurisdiction over those matters, not the north, or Winterfell.   In fact, it's even possible that Royce communicated with other Lords of the Vale, and/or even Sweet Robin himself, who actually PARDONED Sansa in advance for covering it up.

It is possible that Sansa had absolutely nothing to fear there, no matter WHAT Littlefinger said or claimed.

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But... But... The three eyed Raven saw him do it! 

The assembled Vale Lords and Knights would have had to basically call Bran a liar. Now that would have been interesting. But why would they? To a man they despised LF and could see his game to grab the Eryie 

Yep, IMO that would have been the best chance LF had, to deny killing Lysa and reminding Sansa she supported his prior testimony. Confess to nothing and call into question the accusation of a "seer" and his motives.   

And they still would have killed him lol 

 

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21 minutes ago, Cron said:

Well, like I basically said, I believe the people in that room whose opinions really mattered all knew the full truth.

If everyone is in on it, why even have a trial?

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17 minutes ago, falcotron said:

If everyone is in on it, why even have a trial?

Mmmmmm...

(a) I didn't say everyone was in on it.  I said the people who mattered (Bran, Arya, Royce and Sansa)

(b)  The answer to your question, in my opinion, is something someone else in this thread already said (in fact, I think it might have been you, but I'm not going to go up and review for it).   So that the entire matter was dealt with in the manner of justice, not murder.

For example, Royce may have been in on it (and I think he was), but what about other Valemen who were NOT directly Royce's men?

There WERE a lot more people in that room (as witnesses) besides just Bran, Arya, Sansa, Royce and LF.

I would say if those five had been the only ones in the room, then yeah, there would have been no point to all the theater.

But as it was, I think the show was for the rest of the people in the room, so that it was crystal clear what had happened to LF and why.

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47 minutes ago, Cron said:

I would say if those five had been the only ones in the room, then yeah, there would have been no point to all the theater.

But as it was, I think the show was for the rest of the people in the room, so that it was crystal clear what had happened to LF and why.

But it's not at all clear. Let's go over the question that you still haven't answered yet again: What happens if LF says "I didn't kill Lysa, as you know because you testified to the Vale Lords that I was innocent"?

The idea that Sansa has already told Arya and Royce the truth doesn't affect anyone else in the room, and in fact isn't relevant in any way. She still needs to answer that question, and it still seriously weakens her position to have to do so. And again, this is just her first charge against him. What was her plan for that?

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6 hours ago, Tadco26 said:


I believe you are correct, but doesn't that completely contradict your earlier idea that he wed Sansa to Ramsay so she would be Lady of Winterfell?

No, I don't think so... he never planned on the Ramseys holding power for long. 

Step 1. Return Sansa to Winterfell to begin gaining support from northern Lords... A Stark in Winterfell 

2. Manage to have Ramsey killed somehow, he is skilled at this (clearly as he loved Sansa he would want her available again) 

3. Pit the northern Lords in a Sansa Stark or Roose Bolton choice for leader of the North. (I don't give him enough credit that he was aware that Ramsey and certain Lords were plotting to betray Roose but it is possible) 

4. Marry Sansa. 

That's how I see his plan. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, #teamNightking said:

No, I don't think so... he never planned on the Ramseys holding power for long. 

Step 1. Return Sansa to Winterfell to begin gaining support from northern Lords... A Stark in Winterfell 

2. Manage to have Ramsey killed somehow, he is skilled at this (clearly as he loved Sansa he would want her available again) 

3. Pit the northern Lords in a Sansa Stark or Roose Bolton choice for leader of the North. (I don't give him enough credit that he was aware that Ramsey and certain Lords were plotting to betray Roose but it is possible) 

4. Marry Sansa. 

That's how I see his plan. 

 

 

1. If the Northern Lords are going to support Sansa, she doesn't need to marry Ramsay to have that support.  It's pretty likely that Sansa goes to the North with the armies of the Vale in the books at some point and she is never going to marry Ramsay in the process.

2. How dumb is Littlefinger's plan if it requires killing the allies he is making and he never gets a single benefit out of the marriage alliance, but he does make enemies of the Lannisters, again for no gain? 

3.  Sansa showing up with the armies of the Vale would put the Northern Lords in the same position.  And why would the Boltons even want to betray the Lannisters for this marriage when the Iron Throne is what justifies them ruling the North in the first place and legitimizes Ramsay's birth right?  The flimsy fear of northern lord rebellion is the best answer anyone has given, but that threat is never mentioned on the show and frankly without the backing of the Iron Throne we have to believe that the Bolton's alone are powerful enough to defeat all the other northern lords handily because at that point they have no claim on the North other than force of arms.  But if they are that powerful, why do they fear a Northern Lord rebellion enough to lose their Warden of the North title?  The legitimization of Ramsay hardly matters if they betray the king who gave it...

4.  Littlefinger never made any attempt to romance, much less marry Sansa after leaving the Vale, and wooing her would be significantly easier if he hadn't married her off to anyone, much less a psycho like Ramsay.  That was another shift in character really since he kissed Sansa prior to Lyssa even dying, but hasn't tried again since for whatever reason...

 

Again I know the real answer it happened the way it did, which doesn't have anything to do with reasons inside the story itself.  They didn't want to split scenes between the Vale and Winterfell and wanted to hit the Fake Arya story line and Theon saving her without casting another character.  Combining them allowed all the actors to be in one spot together and logic was the casualty in making that happen.

 

Same thing happened with all the Sansa/Arya/Littlefinger/Bran scenes and the trial.   They wanted to give the actors screen time together due to limited time, and couldn't come up with a better story line to make it happen.  They wanted a gotcha moment for the audience as a surprise twist and having the surprise was much more important to them than the surprise making sense if you take time to think about it.

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32 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

Littlefinger never made any attempt to romance, much less marry Sansa after leaving the Vale, and wooing her would be significantly easier if he hadn't married her off to anyone, much less a psycho like Ramsay.  That was another shift in character really since he kissed Sansa prior to Lyssa even dying, but hasn't tried again since for whatever reason...

I believe he did float the idea past Jon to see if he was going to have to kill him to get her. The way Jon reacted in the crypts it was clear he would oppose it. 

At least a couple of times showSansa mentions she "knows" what LF wants...implying he wants her. 

I take the show on its own face value and consider the books as not existing in relation to the show. Which the rest of them may never exist at this rate. It's TV. For a TV show it's been highly entertaining. However this season was rushed too much and it also suffered some stupidity. 

I will never defend the Jamie scuba man, dragon chains or magnificent 7 plan. Those were head scratchers and embarrassing. 

37 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

1. If the Northern Lords are going to support Sansa, she doesn't need to marry Ramsay to have that support.  It's pretty likely that Sansa goes to the North with the armies of the Vale in the books at some point and she is never going to marry Ramsay in the process.

But if showSansa attempts to take Winterfell with the help of the North she better be certain enough houses will rally to her. Very risky. Not all houses were pro Stark. 

From the Boltons perspective, having a Stark in Winterfell legitimizes their claim on Winterfell more than by right of conquest (betrayal) and settles the north down. 

2. The benefit is to get his foot  in the door of Winterfell, elevate Sansa's status and work from within to destroy them  He frequently used "allies" to serve his needs then discarded them. Lysa was an (wife) ally. Dead (but he gained power). Lannisters were allies, betrayed them. Was allies with the Boltons... Attacked them later. Loyal he is not. 

The problem I do have with this story line is that by Sansa agreeing to wed into the house and son of the man that killed her brother and betrayed them at the Red Wedding... It makes her extremely disloyal and kinda stupid. Her arc suffered. No denying it. I mean she had to have heard about the red wedding? I understand why LF wanted it, but why did she do it? She wanted position and power? Sigh

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1 hour ago, Tadco26 said:

Again I know the real answer it happened the way it did, which doesn't have anything to do with reasons inside the story itself.  They didn't want to split scenes between the Vale and Winterfell and wanted to hit the Fake Arya story line and Theon saving her without casting another character.  Combining them allowed all the actors to be in one spot together and logic was the casualty in making that happen.

 

Same thing happened with all the Sansa/Arya/Littlefinger/Bran scenes and the trial.   They wanted to give the actors screen time together due to limited time, and couldn't come up with a better story line to make it happen.  They wanted a gotcha moment for the audience as a surprise twist and having the surprise was much more important to them than the surprise making sense if you take time to think about it.

Yes.  Honestly it made sense to me why they cut out the Vale/Harry the Heir stuff and essentially subbed Ramsay in.  They just couldn't justify the plot mechanics in a way that made it make sense to have Sansa agree to go to Winterfell or why LF would want her there.  

I don't know.  I disagree about the Sansa/Arya/LF/Bran stuff.  It made much more sense to me than Sansa/Ramsay/LF.  Sansa and Arya would have major issues to work out, LF would be smart enough to play them against each other.  It was working, but LF screwed it all up in the final episode when he said Arya wanted to be Lady of Winterfell.  Sansa knows Arya well enough to know that isn't true.  Then Sansa goes to Bran to build a case against LF and clarify things.  This all makes sense to me.

Yes, the final scene in the Hall is a little bewildering but it's a theatrical production done in a way to please the audience of the show.  I think it was good for what it was.  

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9 hours ago, falcotron said:

But it's not at all clear. Let's go over the question that you still haven't answered yet again: What happens if LF says "I didn't kill Lysa, as you know because you testified to the Vale Lords that I was innocent"?

My friend, this is moot.  BRAN makes it all moot.  Bran is basically "all-knowing' (or at least, he has ACCESS to all information any time he wants it , and can PROVE it to anyone he wants, at any time, at the drop of a hat.  It's no problem.  LF's lies are over, he is exposed, Bran KNOWS the truth and can PROVE it to anyone he wants any TIME he wants.

So, Bran uses his power to verify the truth about how Lysa died.  Okay, now let's say Royce doesn't believe him.  Okay, so Bran says "Royce, tell me something from your own past you think I can't possibly know.  Go ahead, test me."  So Royce comes up with something, and bam, Bran tells him 2 seconds later.  "Still not convinced, Lord Royce?  Okay, no problem, give me another, I can do this all freaking day."

So LF's lies are DONE.  They are over.  He is exposed.

So, your hypothetical in which LF tries to tell even MORE lies is moot.

Right?

Quote

The idea that Sansa has already told Arya and Royce the truth doesn't affect anyone else in the room, and in fact isn't relevant in any way. She still needs to answer that question, and it still seriously weakens her position to have to do so. And again, this is just her first charge against him. What was her plan for that?

See above.  My friend, the people I named are IN POWER, and are the decision-makers.

Regarding Sansa answering some question, see above.  LF's lies are OVER.  He cannot fool anyone anymore, Bran makes that impossible.  Bran KNOWS the truth, and can prove it to anyone any time he feels like it.

My strong assumption is that these matters took place off screen, just like other conversations related to this matter also obviously took place off screen.

Bran is the ultimate trump card on all of this stuff.  LF was an utter fool to not run out of Winterfell terrified within 5 minutes of Bran giving him the "Chaos is a ladder" comment, ESPECIALLY if LF had any inkling about the nature of Bran's powers (which I assume he did)

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1 hour ago, Cron said:

My friend, this is moot.  BRAN makes it all moot.  Bran is basically "all-knowing' (or at least, he has ACCESS to all information any time he wants it , and can PROVE it to anyone he wants, at any time, at the drop of a hat.  It's no problem.  LF's lies are over, he is exposed, Bran KNOWS the truth and can PROVE it to anyone he wants any TIME he wants.

So, Bran uses his power to verify the truth about how Lysa died.  Okay, now let's say Royce doesn't believe him.  Okay, so Bran says "Royce, tell me something from your own past you think I can't possibly know.  Go ahead, test me."  So Royce comes up with something, and bam, Bran tells him 2 seconds later.  "Still not convinced, Lord Royce?  Okay, no problem, give me another, I can do this all freaking day."

So LF's lies are DONE.  They are over.  He is exposed.

So, your hypothetical in which LF tries to tell even MORE lies is moot.

Right?

See above.  My friend, the people I named are IN POWER, and are the decision-makers.

Regarding Sansa answering some question, see above.  LF's lies are OVER.  He cannot fool anyone anymore, Bran makes that impossible.  Bran KNOWS the truth, and can prove it to anyone any time he feels like it.

My strong assumption is that these matters took place off screen, just like other conversations related to this matter also obviously took place off screen.

Bran is the ultimate trump card on all of this stuff.  LF was an utter fool to not run out of Winterfell terrified within 5 minutes of Bran giving him the "Chaos is a ladder" comment, ESPECIALLY if LF had any inkling about the nature of Bran's powers (which I assume he did)

If Bran wants to expose littlefinger is exposed. Would he actually expose littlefinger though ? Beyond that littlefinger would of left winterfell the second Bran used the chaos is a latter speech. Ofcourse he alsp would of mever married sansa to boltons.

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3 hours ago, #teamNightking said:

But if showSansa attempts to take Winterfell with the help of the North she better be certain enough houses will rally to her. Very risky. Not all houses were pro Stark. 

From the Boltons perspective, having a Stark in Winterfell legitimizes their claim on Winterfell more than by right of conquest (betrayal) and settles the north down. 

There is no threat of Northern revolt ever mentioned in the show to settle down.  The Boltons control the North because the Iron Throne named Roose Warden of the North.  They threw that and the legitimization of Ramsay as a Bolton away in the context of the show for nothing and Littlefinger gave it to them for nothing. 

3 hours ago, #teamNightking said:

2. The benefit is to get his foot  in the door of Winterfell, elevate Sansa's status and work from within to destroy them  He frequently used "allies" to serve his needs then discarded them. Lysa was an (wife) ally. Dead (but he gained power). Lannisters were allies, betrayed them. Was allies with the Boltons... Attacked them later. Loyal he is not. 

The problem I do have with this story line is that by Sansa agreeing to wed into the house and son of the man that killed her brother and betrayed them at the Red Wedding... It makes her extremely disloyal and kinda stupid. Her arc suffered. No denying it. I mean she had to have heard about the red wedding? I understand why LF wanted it, but why did she do it? She wanted position and power? Sigh

It didn't really do any of those things though.  When the Boltons finally were defeated and Sansa named lady of Winterfell she wasn't with Ramsay anymore and Littlefinger lost Sansa's trust and gained absolutely nothing except for needlessly making the Lannisters enemies from the marriage.  Obviously you have your mind made up that it's a logical story line despite all the points that suggest it isn't, so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

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3 hours ago, Cron said:

My friend, this is moot.  BRAN makes it all moot.  Bran is basically "all-knowing' (or at least, he has ACCESS to all information any time he wants it , and can PROVE it to anyone he wants, at any time, at the drop of a hat.  It's no problem.  LF's lies are over, he is exposed, Bran KNOWS the truth and can PROVE it to anyone he wants any TIME he wants.

So, Bran uses his power to verify the truth about how Lysa died.  Okay, now let's say Royce doesn't believe him.  Okay, so Bran says "Royce, tell me something from your own past you think I can't possibly know.  Go ahead, test me."  So Royce comes up with something, and bam, Bran tells him 2 seconds later.  "Still not convinced, Lord Royce?  Okay, no problem, give me another, I can do this all freaking day."

So LF's lies are DONE.  They are over.  He is exposed.

So, your hypothetical in which LF tries to tell even MORE lies is moot.

Right?

See above.  My friend, the people I named are IN POWER, and are the decision-makers.

Regarding Sansa answering some question, see above.  LF's lies are OVER.  He cannot fool anyone anymore, Bran makes that impossible.  Bran KNOWS the truth, and can prove it to anyone any time he feels like it.

My strong assumption is that these matters took place off screen, just like other conversations related to this matter also obviously took place off screen.

Bran is the ultimate trump card on all of this stuff.  LF was an utter fool to not run out of Winterfell terrified within 5 minutes of Bran giving him the "Chaos is a ladder" comment, ESPECIALLY if LF had any inkling about the nature of Bran's powers (which I assume he did)

Again, your suggestion comes down to a reason why they don't need a trial in the first place. Sure, you could use Bran as a trump card to make anything irrelevant if you want to write him as being totally in control of his powers. What's the point in convincing Cersei with a wight if you could convince her with Bran? What's the point in scouting the Night King's location if you can always find him with Bran? What's the point in making any strategies if you can just ask Bran which one worked? And this isn't any different. Sure, the trial is useless if you can just ask Bran to announce the truth, just like everything else is useless. But that doesn't explain anything about the way the trial happened, because that's not the way they're writing it.

Also, LF saying that Sansa testified to the Vale Lords that he didn't kill Lysa is not a lie. So if Bran tries to check that, he'll verify that it's true. But that isn't even necessary, because Royce and the rest of the Vale Lords remember it happening. And the same goes for half the other charges, where Sansa is complicit with him—Sansa really is complicit, so Bran can't expose anything. So he's not a trump card at all.

And finally, you keep talking about your assumption that "these matters" took place off screen, but I don't understand what matters you think those are that would answer the question. Unless everyone in the room was part of the plot, it doesn't matter what they discussed in advance. The fact that Royce understands why Sansa lied, and Royce is the one with the power, doesn't change the fact that nobody else knows that she lied or understands why. So if LF brings that up and she doesn't have a good answer, nobody in the room will be convinced that the trial is just. Do you think Royce is going to order the Vale Lords to stop being suspicious and just accept it because Sansa actually did have a plot but he was part of it so it's OK? How would that fly?

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2 hours ago, MilesJames said:

If Bran wants to expose littlefinger is exposed. Would he actually expose littlefinger though ? Beyond that littlefinger would of left winterfell the second Bran used the chaos is a latter speech. Ofcourse he alsp would of mever married sansa to boltons.

Well, I think Bran DID expose Littlefinger.  I believe the only way that that scene (the death of LF) was possible was cuz Bran exposed him.

Littlefinger built a life based on lies, and then ran into someone (Bran) who wasn't fooled, and had the ability to expose LF to others as a liar, too.

And as a result, LF got crossed off.

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