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falcotron

Why didn't Littlefinger bring up Sansa's complicity?

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1 hour ago, Tadco26 said:

It didn't really do any of those things though.  When the Boltons finally were defeated and Sansa named lady of Winterfell she wasn't with Ramsay anymore and Littlefinger lost Sansa's trust and gained absolutely nothing except for needlessly making the Lannisters enemies from the marriage.  Obviously you have your mind made up that it's a logical story line despite all the points that suggest it isn't, so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

The writers pretty obviously screwed up the Ramsay plot, but I think I know what they were going for, and how they screwed it up.

Here's how I think it was supposed to work: Giving Sansa to the Boltons is a sensible plan to get power by sacrificing her. But LF's central character conflict is that he can't see that his power-lust and his Sansa-lust don't always converge. He'd never come up with a plan to sacrifice Sansa, because he loves her. So the plan must not actually be to sacrifice Sansa, but actually a way to get her power, not himself, and at the same time to bind her closer to himself. And the more he rationalizes it and builds on it, the easier it is for him to not realize it's irrational, because that's how neurosis works.

I think D&D had a sketched-out arc that worked this way, possibly even based on GRRM's sketched-out arc for LF. But when it came time to write the episodes a year or two later, under the usual time pressures, they confused themselves about which part of the plan was supposed to be genius and which part was supposed to be irrational, and wrote everything as if "Sansa can wrap Ramsay around her finger" made sense. And by the time they realized their mistake, the episodes were already done and they were already writing S7, so the best they could do was to hang a lampshade on the mistake and hope the viewers forgave them for it while they hastily scrambled to repair the storyline, because that's how being a writer who's put himself under too much stress and has nobody to blame but himself works.

I think many of the fans are able to see what they were trying to go for, and, without the stress, and without having to write it spread out over two years, can make a logical storyline out of that arc. So, it's very tempting to take that logical storyline as headcanon and twist the show to fit. And it even almost works. But ultimately, that's not what's in the show.

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26 minutes ago, falcotron said:

The writers pretty obviously screwed up the Ramsay plot, but I think I know what they were going for, and how they screwed it up.

Here's how I think it was supposed to work: Giving Sansa to the Boltons is a sensible plan to get power by sacrificing her. But LF's central character conflict is that he can't see that his power-lust and his Sansa-lust don't always converge. He'd never come up with a plan to sacrifice Sansa, because he loves her. So the plan must not actually be to sacrifice Sansa, but actually a way to get her power, not himself, and at the same time to bind her closer to himself. And the more he rationalizes it and builds on it, the easier it is for him to not realize it's irrational, because that's how neurosis works.

I think D&D had a sketched-out arc that worked this way, possibly even based on GRRM's sketched-out arc for LF. But when it came time to write the episodes a year or two later, under the usual time pressures, they confused themselves about which part of the plan was supposed to be genius and which part was supposed to be irrational, and wrote everything as if "Sansa can wrap Ramsay around her finger" made sense. And by the time they realized their mistake, the episodes were already done and they were already writing S7, so the best they could do was to hang a lampshade on the mistake and hope the viewers forgave them for it while they hastily scrambled to repair the storyline, because that's how being a writer who's put himself under too much stress and has nobody to blame but himself works.

I think many of the fans are able to see what they were trying to go for, and, without the stress, and without having to write it spread out over two years, can make a logical storyline out of that arc. So, it's very tempting to take that logical storyline as headcanon and twist the show to fit. And it even almost works. But ultimately, that's not what's in the show.

I'd say Ramsay is meant to be a kind of a stand-in for Harry the Heir, the problem being that this doesn't really work on a very fundamental level because there's simply nothing he can offer Sandra or LF that they couldn't more easily get through other means. It makes sense for Sansa to try to seduce and manipulate HtH because doing so successfully ultimately means (united) Vale armies marching to her tune while seducing Ramsay is pointless. You don't want him to fight *for* you because by necessity if not by nature he's your enemy.

The problem with the entire plot is that even if LF/Sandra succeed in all their plotting they're going to be worse off than when they started.

I still don't understand why they don't have for a storyline involving Sansa using her political skills to get people to the against the Boltons. My only explanation is that they don't get Sansa's character and never have.

 

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7 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

I'd say Ramsay is meant to be a kind of a stand-in for Harry the Heir, the problem being that this doesn't really work on a very fundamental level because there's simply nothing he can offer Sandra or LF that they couldn't more easily get through other means.

I think there definitely is an element of that here—an early outline says "merge Sansa/Harry and fArya/Ramsay storylines", and then when it comes time to write that, it's not possible to merge them very sensibly.

But I don't think that part explains why so many fans tie themselves in knots trying to make sense of the story, because I don't think any fans can sensibly merge those two storylines in any kind of headcanon that's even close to plausible, so there's no drive to try to hammer the story into that headcanon. 

7 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

I still don't understand why they don't have for a storyline involving Sansa using her political skills to get people to the against the Boltons. My only explanation is that they don't get Sansa's character and never have.

I think it's more that they need to have some storyline involving Sansa using her political skills, and this is where they tried to cram it in. Their mergers and condensations leave them with pieces of story that can't be skipped because later storylines or major themes depend on them, but no natural place for them to fit. Sometimes they're successful at finding a place for them, sometimes they aren't and it comes off as artificial, or occasionally even just baffling, as with this one.

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43 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Again, your suggestion comes down to a reason why they don't need a trial in the first place. Sure, you could use Bran as a trump card to make anything irrelevant if you want to write him as being totally in control of his powers. What's the point in convincing Cersei with a wight if you could convince her with Bran? What's the point in scouting the Night King's location if you can always find him with Bran? What's the point in making any strategies if you can just ask Bran which one worked? And this isn't any different. Sure, the trial is useless if you can just ask Bran to announce the truth, just like everything else is useless. But that doesn't explain anything about the way the trial happened, because that's not the way they're writing it.

Bran IS totally in control of his powers (at least when it comes to viewing stuff)  Look at the scene with Sam.   Sam made an assertion, and BAM, 2 seconds later Bran checked and verified it (the marriage of Rhaegar and Lyanna)

And yes, Bran DOES make a number of things obsolete, but I'm not sure he makes planning for the future obsolete.  This is a sincere question for anyone reading this:  Can Bran see the future??  Cuz i don't think so.  What he told Sam was that he could seen anything in the past or present, but he did NOT mention the future.  And we have not seen ANY visions from Bran regarding the future.  I don't think Bran can see the future.

But yeah, the Wight Hunt was a waste, but when Jon & Company embarked on it they didn't know about Bran's powers (I think)

43 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Also, LF saying that Sansa testified to the Vale Lords that he didn't kill Lysa is not a lie. So if Bran tries to check that, he'll verify that it's true. But that isn't even necessary, because Royce and the rest of the Vale Lords remember it happening. And the same goes for half the other charges, where Sansa is complicit with him—Sansa really is complicit, so Bran can't expose anything. So he's not a trump card at all.

Hmmmm.  My belief is that Bran knows EXACTLY what happened, at all stages. And that that was discussed with the "decision-makers."  And that the "decision-makers" gave Sansa a pass, due to the extraordinary circumstances.

in my opinion, LF has done FAR worse things than Sansa, on numerous occasions.   So, frankly, I'm not surprised if Bran, Arya and Royce, upon reviewing all the evidence, decide that LF needs to be crossed off, and Sansa, on the other hand, was far more often a victim herself than anything else.

43 minutes ago, falcotron said:

And finally, you keep talking about your assumption that "these matters" took place off screen, but I don't understand what matters you think those are that would answer the question. Unless everyone in the room was part of the plot, it doesn't matter what they discussed in advance. The fact that Royce understands why Sansa lied, and Royce is the one with the power, doesn't change the fact that nobody else knows that she lied or understands why. So if LF brings that up and she doesn't have a good answer, nobody in the room will be convinced that the trial is just. Do you think Royce is going to order the Vale Lords to stop being suspicious and just accept it because Sansa actually did have a plot but he was part of it so it's OK? How would that fly?

The "matters" I am talking about are (a), full, detailed, truthful discussion of what actually occurred, and (b) what should be done about it.

Regarding the rest of the issues you raise:  In my view, they are all hypotheticals that did not come to pass.  If they HAD come to pass, Bran would have intervened, in my opinion.  Again, Bran is the trump card.  I really don't see how anyone could rationally disbelieve anything Bran says, especially about such important matters.  My understanding is that your hypothetical depends on LF making up MORE lies ,and people believing him.  Okay, that's all off the table.  Yeah, sure, LF could say that Sansa told some lie at the Vale trial, and that might be true, but in my opinion ALL the evidence has been reviewed in advance, and the result of the LF trial was predetermined.

If I'm right, then Bran, Sansa Arya and Royce were smart.  If not, then I think they were foolish to go into that hearing without knowing beforehand how it was all going to shake out in the end, but in which case, still, they rolled dice, got lucky, and won.

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1 hour ago, Cron said:

Beyond that littlefinger would of left winterfell the second Bran used the chaos is a latter speech

I think there was just enough doubt...that Bran might have got that quote from Sansa rather than magic powers. LF disregarded Bran.... Big mistake. Fatal even. Understandable tho. If no lie can be hidden from Bran...then all that LF is, has become nothing. Maybe his ego could not accept that. A potentially fascinating character I think the show could have explored him more. Then again if his end was death no matter what, why bother. 

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15 minutes ago, #teamNightking said:

I think there was just enough doubt...that Bran might have got that quote from Sansa rather than magic powers. LF disregarded Bran.... Big mistake. Fatal even. Understandable tho. If no lie can be hidden from Bran...then all that LF is, has become nothing. Maybe his ego could not accept that. A potentially fascinating character I think the show could have explored him more. Then again if his end was death no matter what, why bother. 

The irony in all of that is that Littlefinger was undone with information.  The same thing that he used as a weapon.  He looked at Bran as a cripple, what can a cripple do to me?  Ironically that's the same way everyone else with some power looked at him and he resented them for it and it was probably a major motivator for him.  

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7 minutes ago, Cron said:

And yes, Bran DOES make a number of things obsolete, but I'm not sure he makes planning for the future obsolete.  This is a sincere question for anyone reading this:  Can Bran see the future??  Cuz i don't think so.  What he told Sam was that he could seen anything in the past or present, but he did NOT mention the future.  And we have not seen ANY visions from Bran regarding the future.  I don't think Bran can see the future.

One of Bran's first visions was of Drogon flying over King's Landing, which didn't happen until just this episode.

7 minutes ago, Cron said:

Hmmmm.  My belief is that Bran knows EXACTLY what happened, at all stages. And that that was discussed with the "decision-makers."  And that the "decision-makers" gave Sansa a pass, due to the extraordinary circumstances.

You're just repeating yourself here, and not answering the question. The decision-makers giving Sansa a pass doesn't affect the way the trial is going to play out to everyone else in the room. Because, again, the entire point of the trial is convincing the Vale and Northern Lords that impartial justice is being served. One more try, and then I'm going to give up.

Imagine this conversation:

  • Royce: So, we're finally going to take down Littlefinger? Count me in. What's the plan?
  • Sansa: We're going to hold a trial in front of all of the Vale and Northern Lords to sell everyone on the fact that he's guilty of a long list of crimes.
  • Royce: That's a great plan. We can execute him, and it'll be legitimate justice, not vengeful murder. So, what's the first charge?
  • Sansa: Killing Lysa.
  • Royce: What? But you testified, to me and the other Vale Lords, that he was innocent!
  • Sansa: Yes, but I lied. And I had good reasons. I was scared of him, and scared that you might execute me along with him, and still shaken up over Lysa trying to kill me, and—
  • Royce: OK, I get it. I can see how that could have gone down. I kind of wish you'd spoken up sooner so we could have dealt the slimeball before things got this far, but I can't promise how things would have turned out for you, so…  Yeah, I absolve you completely. And anyway, taking him down down is what matters now.
  • Sansa: Thanks.
  • Royce: But what if he brings up your testimony?
  • Sansa: Oh, that's fine. As long as you think I was justified, it doesn't matter what anyone else in the room thinks.

All of that makes sense up until the last part, but how does that last part make any sense? Of course it makes sense what everyone else in the room thinks, because the entire point of the trial is what everyone else thinks.

Or did it go something like this?

  • Royce: But what if he brings up your testimony?
  • Sansa: Oh, then Bran will just tell everyone I was lying.
  • Royce: Won't that make you look untrustworthy and biased, and therefore badly compromise the trial?
  • Sansa: Nope, because the only people who matter are in this room.

Again, that doesn't make sense, because the whole point of the trial is convincing the other Lords, who aren't in on the conspiracy.

Or, if not that, what answer could she have given that would make any sense?

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9 minutes ago, falcotron said:

One of Bran's first visions was of Drogon flying over King's Landing, which didn't happen until just this episode.

You're just repeating yourself here, and not answering the question. The decision-makers giving Sansa a pass doesn't affect the way the trial is going to play out to everyone else in the room. Because, again, the entire point of the trial is convincing the Vale and Northern Lords that impartial justice is being served. One more try, and then I'm going to give up.

Imagine this conversation:

  • Royce: So, we're finally going to take down Littlefinger? Count me in. What's the plan?
  • Sansa: We're going to hold a trial in front of all of the Vale and Northern Lords to sell everyone on the fact that he's guilty of a long list of crimes.
  • Royce: That's a great plan. We can execute him, and it'll be legitimate justice, not vengeful murder. So, what's the first charge?
  • Sansa: Killing Lysa.
  • Royce: What? But you testified, to me and the other Vale Lords, that he was innocent!
  • Sansa: Yes, but I lied. And I had good reasons. I was scared of him, and scared that you might execute me along with him, and still shaken up over Lysa trying to kill me, and—
  • Royce: OK, I get it. I can see how that could have gone down. I kind of wish you'd spoken up sooner so we could have dealt the slimeball before things got this far, but I can't promise how things would have turned out for you, so…  Yeah, I absolve you completely. And anyway, taking him down down is what matters now.
  • Sansa: Thanks.
  • Royce: But what if he brings up your testimony?
  • Sansa: Oh, that's fine. As long as you think I was justified, it doesn't matter what anyone else in the room thinks.

All of that makes sense up until the last part, but how does that last part make any sense? Of course it makes sense what everyone else in the room thinks, because the entire point of the trial is what everyone else thinks.

Or did it go something like this?

  • Royce: But what if he brings up your testimony?
  • Sansa: Oh, then Bran will just tell everyone I was lying.
  • Royce: Won't that make you look untrustworthy and biased, and therefore badly compromise the trial?
  • Sansa: Nope, because the only people who matter are in this room.

Again, that doesn't make sense, because the whole point of the trial is convincing the other Lords, who aren't in on the conspiracy.

Or, if not that, what answer could she have given that would make any sense?

Except the Vale and Northern Lords were not in that room.  Royce was and the Starks and Stark men and LF.  At no point did I see any other northern or Vale Lords, everyone else except Sansa, Littlefinger, Arya, Bran, and Royce were all dressed the same in soldiers gear.  This gave me the impression that this was an issue for the Starks, and being that LF was LP of the Vale, the commander of their armies was present as well and what everyone else that wasn't in that room thought or felt was of no consequence. 

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10 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

Except the Vale and Northern Lords were not in that room.  Royce was and the Starks and Stark men and LF.  At no point did I see any other northern or Vale Lords, everyone else except Sansa, Littlefinger, Arya, Bran, and Royce were all dressed the same in soldiers gear.  This gave me the impression that this was an issue for the Starks, and being that LF was LP of the Vale, the commander of their armies was present as well and what everyone else that wasn't in that room thought or felt was of no consequence. 

If that were true, what would be the point of having a trial in the first place? Why not just say, "Well, we've all had a secret meeting and agreed that LF is guilty, and now here he is, so let's kill him"?

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44 minutes ago, #teamNightking said:

I think there was just enough doubt...that Bran might have got that quote from Sansa rather than magic powers. LF disregarded Bran.... Big mistake. Fatal even. Understandable tho. If no lie can be hidden from Bran...then all that LF is, has become nothing. Maybe his ego could not accept that. A potentially fascinating character I think the show could have explored him more. Then again if his end was death no matter what, why bother. 

Um...what?  I have no memory of writing what you "quoted" from me, plus it has multiple typos I do not believe I would ever make, AND as I scroll up I do not see any post from me with that language in it (not surprisingly).

Any idea what is going on here?

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5 minutes ago, Cron said:

Um...what?  I have no memory of writing what you "quoted" from me, plus it has multiple typos I do not believe I would ever make, AND as I scroll up I do not see any post from me with that language in it (not surprisingly).

Any idea what is going on here?

The forum software seems to have a bug that occasionally causes the wrong person to get quoted. (And it's not just the name—the link goes to the user page that matches the wrong name rather than the right author, the wrong person gets notified, etc.)

My guess is that they're using a pretty ancient version of their software and can't easily upgrade because of all the customizations they've done, and we'll just have to live with it, just like the creaky old rich-text editor and the server going down in the middle of most episodes and so on. At least it doesn't seem to happen that often.

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43 minutes ago, falcotron said:

One of Bran's first visions was of Drogon flying over King's Landing, which didn't happen until just this episode.

Good point.  Still, Bran didn't mention to Sam he could see the future.  Maybe he can't control that part. Dunno.

Quote

You're just repeating yourself here, and not answering the question. The decision-makers giving Sansa a pass doesn't affect the way the trial is going to play out to everyone else in the room. Because, again, the entire point of the trial is convincing the Vale and Northern Lords that impartial justice is being served. One more try, and then I'm going to give up.

Um, from my point of view, I am repeating myself cuz you are repeating yourself.

Bran. Is. The. Trump. Card.

You are posing a hypothetical which DID NOT come to pass, and asking, basically, "What if it had happened?" as I understand it.

Okay.  Well, it's moot.  It's all moot, cuz even if that had come to pass, Bran could have convinced (and would have convinced, I'm sure) anyone and everyone who doubted the truth what the truth was.

Up above, as I recall, you were basically asking "What if LF denied his guilt in the murder of Lysa and as proof cited Sansa's testimony at the Vale trial?" (my paraphrase)

Okay, that is all moot.  Such lies will not work for LF with Bran in the room

Quote

Imagine this conversation:

  • Royce: So, we're finally going to take down Littlefinger? Count me in. What's the plan?
  • Sansa: We're going to hold a trial in front of all of the Vale and Northern Lords to sell everyone on the fact that he's guilty of a long list of crimes.
  • Royce: That's a great plan. We can execute him, and it'll be legitimate justice, not vengeful murder. So, what's the first charge?
  • Sansa: Killing Lysa.
  • Royce: What? But you testified, to me and the other Vale Lords, that he was innocent!
  • Sansa: Yes, but I lied. And I had good reasons. I was scared of him, and scared that you might execute me along with him, and still shaken up over Lysa trying to kill me, and—
  • Royce: OK, I get it. I can see how that could have gone down. I kind of wish you'd spoken up sooner so we could have dealt the slimeball before things got this far, but I can't promise how things would have turned out for you, so…  Yeah, I absolve you completely. And anyway, taking him down down is what matters now.
  • Sansa: Thanks.
  • Royce: But what if he brings up your testimony?
  • Sansa: Oh, that's fine. As long as you think I was justified, it doesn't matter what anyone else in the room thinks.

All of that makes sense up until the last part, but how does that last part make any sense? Of course it makes sense what everyone else in the room thinks, because the entire point of the trial is what everyone else thinks.

Uhhhhhhhh...the "last part" is MOOT. Bran can PROVE the truth of what Sansa is saying, to Royce and/or anyone else who doubts it  And if the issue had been contested, I'm sure Bran would have done that very thing.

Quote

Or did it go something like this?

  • Royce: But what if he brings up your testimony?
  • Sansa: Oh, then Bran will just tell everyone I was lying.
  • Royce: Won't that make you look untrustworthy and biased, and therefore badly compromise the trial?
  • Sansa: Nope, because the only people who matter are in this room.

Again, that doesn't make sense, because the whole point of the trial is convincing the other Lords, who aren't in on the conspiracy.

Or, if not that, what answer could she have given that would make any sense?

Wow.  I think you are looking for wheels within wheels within wheels.  I suppose Sansa, Bran, Arya and Royce could have chosen to do NOTHING, on the remote off chance that somehow LF would have been able to weasel out of it, but have you ever heard the expression "paralysis by overanalysis"?     Perhaps there was some VERY remote chance that things could have gone sideways in that hearing for the 3 Starks, but I think that was VERY unlikely.   To the extent that some remote possibility existed, I would say they rolled dice against those VERY remote odds, and won.   

That's my opinion.

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24 minutes ago, falcotron said:

If that were true, what would be the point of having a trial in the first place? Why not just say, "Well, we've all had a secret meeting and agreed that LF is guilty, and now here he is, so let's kill him"?

Did you see any of them there in their normal places?  No Mormount, no Glover, no Umber, no Karstark, no Manderly.  None of them were there.  It was a closed trial, with Starks only and the commander of the armies of the Vale, and Stark soldiers.  They did not need the northern lords permission to execute Littlefinger.  

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17 minutes ago, Cron said:

Um, from my point of view, I am repeating myself cuz you are repeating yourself.

Well, yes, and that's the problem.

I started this thread to ask a question. You came to this thread to post an answer to what seems to be a completely different question. I'm still asking the same question, and you're posting the same answer over and over again. I've tried to phrase the question in different ways, but all you do is phrase the answer to a different question in different ways. Which isn't helpful.

And at this point, it isn't helpful for me to keep trying to find different ways to phrase the question, so I'm giving up.

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17 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

They did not need the northern lords permission to execute Littlefinger.  

So, again, what is the point of the trial?

If they want to execute Littlefinger, they can execute Littlefinger. The only reason I can see to do it through a trial is to convince everyone that they're serving justice rather than murdering someone they don't like. If you don't think they see any point in trying to convince anyone of that, why not just kill him?

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8 minutes ago, falcotron said:

So, again, what is the point of the trial?

If they want to execute Littlefinger, they can execute Littlefinger. The only reason I can see to do it through a trial is to convince everyone that they're serving justice rather than murdering someone they don't like. If you don't think they see any point in trying to convince anyone of that, why not just kill him?

Now they can say they tried him and he was guilty.  Is anyone that wasn't there going to question it?  Doubt it. No one gave a shit about him except Robin and he would have pushed him out of the moon door just to get a kick out of it.  

They could have just murdered him too, dumped him somewhere, cut him to pieces, let Ramsay's dogs eat him, but it's more dramatic for the show this way.  

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Right. Ned executed the night watch deserter without a trial in season 1. 

However LF is (was) Noble. There are certain standards and practices for executing nobility. 

And maybe, there was an element of revenge in blindsiding him, make him squirm a little, then listen to him whimper before killing him... 

I enjoyed seeing him undone in that manner. More fun than a rock to the head while sleeping.... 

 

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9 minutes ago, #teamNightking said:

Right. Ned executed the night watch deserter without a trial in season 1. 

However LF is (was) Noble. There are certain standards and practices for executing nobility. 

And maybe, there was an element of revenge in blindsiding him, make him squirm a little, then listen to him whimper before killing him... 

I enjoyed seeing him undone in that manner. More fun than a rock to the head while sleeping.... 

 

7 kingdoms rules don't apply to the North that considers itself a free kingdom.  LF isn't of the North.  His titles and whatever don't mean anything in Winterfell.  

Obviously that's pure speculation on my part I really don't know.  But I do know that the only non northerner in that room was Royce and LF and none of the Northern Lords and Ladies of great houses were there either.  It's unclear if they were at Winterfell, if they were that's an interesting question, why weren't they in the room, and I also gave my opinion on that above, but if not maybe they just felt they needed to do this before LF caught on. 

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2 hours ago, Cron said:

Well, I think Bran DID expose Littlefinger.  I believe the only way that that scene (the death of LF) was possible was cuz Bran exposed him.

Littlefinger built a life based on lies, and then ran into someone (Bran) who wasn't fooled, and had the ability to expose LF to others as a liar, too.

And as a result, LF got crossed off.

It would of been more satisfying if Bran caught him of guard and exposed evreything. 

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