AverageGuy Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Well, LF was the real force behind Jon and Ned's death, so I never gave her a lot of credit. Not that she couldn't still manipulate people, like Loras in aFfC, but she was always out of her depth. A lot did happen in KL as such (even if people weren't interested in those events very much), so GRRM couldn't ignore it. I know. After book 1, we found out there was more to Jaime and less to Cersei. Her POV in AFFC was kind of heavy-handed. I know that's in large part personal taste. But I was banging my head against the wall when reading the reasoning of a character that Tyrion said had a certain cunning. Bah. Off-topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuellar Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 After reading all of your guys' bickering, I'll say that I probably agree with EHK overall. Although, the references to AFFC is without merit... we're talking about WHEEL OF TIME, and trying to get a rise out of ASOIF fans by bringing up AFFC is similar to a red herring. That being said, it is a FACT that I will state my opinion. FACT that my opinion is more important to me than anyone else's. FACT that I was once an ultra-hardcore Jordan fanboi, that would have gone to EHK's house and beaten him with a tire iron for sniffling at Jordan while tugging his braid. FACT that the only reason I read this drivel is that I'm a masochist that has to finish what he starts. In fact I may have OCD tendencies since I don't like stepping on cracks, and often do that annoying touch 3 times bullshit, therefore will continue to read every WoT book. FACT you are all jealous of Rand and his hot foursome. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Overall I think you can divide the WoT into 2 series, Lord of Chaos and before as Series 1, and everything after as Series 2. I think we can all agree that sometimes before/after LoC, there was a change in the series/plot progression, for better or worse. That being said, I think many of EHK's whining is largely unfounded. While I consider the characters' portrayal unrealistic, most people came to this realization after book 2. Nine books later you can't be shocked when Nynaeve pulls her braid at trollocs gang raping a horse, or Rand not understanding how maxi-pads work. As for my opinion on the overeall book, I think it is the best of "Series 2" (post-LoC books). "A-" overall compared to the last 3. The first 500 pages are much like the past 3 books, but the last 100 pages pick up to have some movement and resolution to many of the minor plots that have been dragged out for 3 books. Specifically, in the last 100 pages we resolved Perrin's quest, Mat's fate, Elayne's Bushesque political fortune, and Egwene finally had something worth reading. Like I said, the first 500 pages are exactly in line with the rest of the Series 2 books. No difference. The overall book was somewhat disjointed though. Rand's entire apperance was completely pointless and somewhat random. BAM million trollocs teleport in, "oh n0z, b@tlz timez". "Gee, it's a trap... ahhh... random crap happens... ahhhh... I'm a hardass". Elayne's black ajah and windfinder bubblings were beyond retarded. Mat in the circus made me cringe. Perrin's incessent whinning about his woman was old 5 books ago. Any minor Aes Sedai chapter could have been removed from the book with no impact on the plot whatsoever. Probably the biggest improvement was in the Egwene chapters. You see a return to the earlier books' Aes Sedai maneuverings (even if the infighting between the Ajahs seems pointless). I'll go far as to say they were the ONLY chapters in the first 500 pages worth reading. The battle scenes took a weird turn. Mat's finale was kinda lame. Rand's trolloc rape was pointless and random. The only good thing was that we only had one swordfight with BUBBLEBEE RAPES A RABIT moved to SPIDER PEES ON WEB twisted to MAN SMELLS OWN FART, which was pretty brief. Overall, the improvement in the swordfights (elimination of said item), change in Egwene plot, resolution of most minor retarded things have been dragging on since Series 2 began, and impending end to the series made this book stand out from the other Series 2 books. Compared to regular fiction writing, this book scores a "C-". -Cuellar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrist Simon Steele Posted February 1, 2007 Author Share Posted February 1, 2007 I haven't read it in two weeks. I only have a couple hundred or so pages left but I came across a particularly loathesome POV--Tuon. It was almost comedic in how not long before I came across this POV I ranted on here about how much I hated her use of the word "toy" and then I get a chapter which uses the word least one time each sentence. I think I threw the book across the room and it's been lost in the closet ever since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomaswhigham Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Hey, If you don't like ti you don't like it. Personally I enjoyed it. I though about 75% of it was pretty good, and only 25% was crap. I will admit to some blind devotion to the series though. At one time I thought it the pinnacle of fantasy. I'm certainly not a diehard fanboy though. I readily admit that CoT was utter crap. WH was bad, PoD wasn't good, and CoS was where it started to go downhill for me. I found KoD to be the best book since LoC its funny but, I read all the wheel of time books, but I didn't start skipping most of the words on the page until probably book 3. During book three it started that, towards the end, i was so excited to find out what happens I would just skip ahead a paragraph or two every few pages, only to find myself frantically reading every word of every page in between. As the books went on it became a habit for me, and by book six i was capable of editing out large chunks of writing as early as the prologue. by book seven and eight the editing was coming close to a bit on just about every page but the most interesting. by book nine I was editing whole pages of description after the most cursory of examinations confirmed he was still talking about a wall hanging or a gown's color or the history of the window dressing and the etemology of said design. book 11 i loved. i also only read about 300 of the 660 pages or whatever. I remember very distinctly that i skipped anywhere from 1/3 to 2/3 of the book, and cannot recall if it ended up being 200 of a 600 page book i read, or 400, but it was probably about 400. An interesting note. If you skip all his bullshit descriptions the fact that not as much happens in the chapter doesn't matter because you are skipping to a new chapter soon enogh. hints: skip all foreshadowing. it doesn't matter at all. skip all dream sequences and prophetic shit. skip all descriptions about clothes, materials, walls, doors, armor, histories, etc. read most if not all of the dialogue. if you are confused about an aes sedai plot or what have you try to ask yourself in the grand scehem of WOT relevance how their machinations much matter. if the answer is not much, or i can't tell, just skim the fucking shit out of their chapter and move on. the thing i realized is that you only need to read the chapters you like to like the story. since the other chars threads dont fucking matter to the plot at large at all (this is becasue his chapters never never interrelate and bring chars together anymore). and beyond that, ultimately all the chars will meet up anyways, so it doesn't neccessarily matter how. in conclusion, the WOT can be a great distracting fantasy series with some truly bad ass and great emotion giving moments if you only read the parts that are good. egwene's chapter, especially, in book 11, were suprisingly good, so i only skipped about 1 out of every three words on average for her chapters. matt is the same. the rand chapter i probably read almost every word, as he still seems central to the greatest action and relevance. but that is personal preference. and don't bitch about spending seven dollars when you can library the motherfucker or download it off the internet as pdf. finally: whoever compared the political machinations of elayne's story to AGOT has missed what makes martins politics so good. its humanity and that you care about the chars and that it defies conventional presentations of politics in favor of somewhat more realistic and mortally consequential occurences. jordans politics are what happens when a nerd with ocd tries to explain social and material dynamics to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuellar Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Maybe on the next book I'll read it and come out with an edited version that people can buy. It'll be 50 pages long... and will save everyone a boatload of time. -Cuellar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slinx Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Anyone getting sick of the closure of Jordan? I mean, I recall things about Thom and Moirane hooking up. Perrin falls in love with a 14 year old who spends her time bitching. I rooted for Rand when he nailed three chicks, but after that, let them go off and do their own things, not take over the whole damn story with their boring political machinations. Egwene hardly knew Gawyn, but it sounds like he got to second base within a couple days. Yet somehow that's love. Morgase + Tallanvor... Berelain and Galad, I'm assuming. Siuan and Gareth Bryne... Nyneave and Lan... Lan turned pretty much into a pussy. Mat and Tuon. (though that one is actually plot related, so its excusable) Is the last book just gonna be a list of characters hooking up and the boring whining of Elayne, Nynaeve, and Egwene? Hell, Martin is still getting bitched at for leaving the main characters out of the fourth and yet Jordan has done that 100x over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibandar Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 We're told the Aes Sedai controlled kingdoms, toppled empires, given and taken crowns for thousands of years. But we're shown incompetent, squabbling, useless and pointless little bitches. We're told that the Foresaken manipulated, enslaved and destroyed much more advanced, enlightened, and powerful kingdoms, but we're shown the most incompetent villains since Wily Coyote. Was just reading through this older thread and this EHK line has me rolling over the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammerOfGod Posted October 8, 2007 Share Posted October 8, 2007 Thanks for the synopsises (what the hell is the plural of synopsis anyway?) people. So, in the end of KoD some thing actually happened? Well, nice. But what I wanna know, any updates on: *Gawyn *Moiraine *Morgase The rest are uggh anyway, apart from Galad and Berelain ] One of the most Ironic things Jordan has done...is have Gawyn attacking the supply wagons of the woman he loves...he is the one that is supplying pin pricks to Garath Bren's Army under Egwene... Moiraine is not to come back until it is almost time for Rand to end it all... Mat continues to gain scars...he has to have the most scared body in all of fantasy fiction... Mat did finially read the letter from Moiraine to Thom...he has to go with Thom to rescue Moiraine Morgase saved Faile's life just hours before they are all rescued by Perrin... lots of battles in KoD...Mat has three skirmishes...and Perrin has the largest battle since Dummi's Wells Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammerOfGod Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 You know, I've postulated several times here that RJ would have been best served by reigning in the tangents and keeping to the progressive plot of the story -- in that, the action and epic stuff would continue to esculate through the second half, rather than slow down to a crawl. It's a daunting task as this point, but how would you edit WoT? Here's what I would do: Start with book five. Ditch the circus stuff, which was sort of amusing on the first read but is a clear indication of where RJ would end up four-five books later. Book six - interpose the climatic sections of book 7 into the middle/later half of the novel. After Rand comes back from defeating Sammael (and ditching the "woman dying boo hoo" stuff), he falls into the trap the Aes Sedai set for him. This leads, naturally, to Dumai's Wells. Book seven - The rebels teleport to begin the siege of the White Tower. The Seanchan invade, as they do in the original CoS, however Rand has his hands full with rebel Asha-men (the climax of book eight, put into the middle here) -- which leads him to contemplate cleansing the source. This is done at the end of book seven, and the forsaken present a much greater threat during the battle. Book eight - combine the "events" of CoT with KoD. I.e., Egwene is captured and subverts the WT from within. The Andor politics stuff could be dropped utterly, or put in a "side novel". Windfinders merit, at most, three chapters in books seven and eight. Matt meets the Daughter of Nine Moons in this volume (note we have skipped Tylan and a lot of the soap opera stuff from the original book seven & nine). Book nine - After dealing with Sermihage, Rand manages a truce with "real" Seanchian near beginning via Matt and his new wife, confronts Mazrim and the Black Tower. Everything is ready for the Last Battle, which should take the majority of the book. Climax/conclusion. Perrin's "arc" could easily be compressed into one or maybe two of the volumes above (seven + eight). So -- in this scheme, WoT would be nine books. A lot would have to be cut, but IMO I'm more interested in how Rand is going crazy than in the plots of some Black Ajah in Andor or the adventures of sideshow Luca. If you could re-edit WoT, how would you go about it? Can't get rid of the Menagerie, because it has been pivital to the Mat and the Daughter of the Nine Moons arc...which was promised way back in book 4...and also it has been a place for Aludra who is the inventer of the cannon which Mat is going to use to defeat the Shadow Spawn... I would shorten the road trips...the one Rand and Mat took in EotW and Elayne and Nynaeve took in PoD I don't remember Elayne and Nynaeve in the back of a wagon throwing fire balls... Avendeah did from horseback in PoD... A lot of the Children of the Light and Morgase stuff was very uninteresting... Nynaeve's battles are very much like Rand's she has been pitted against individuals...especially Mogedien...but also she battled the two Black Ajah in {Crown of Swords} and the three Shadow Runners in {The Dragon Reborn}...and stood beside Rand in KoD against Semirage...so her battles are very much like Rand's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeric Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 I don't remember Elayne and Nynaeve in the back of a wagon throwing fire balls... I think he got it slightly mixed up with when they fled from Altra and it was Aviendha throwing fireballs off a back of a horse towards the end while Elayne tried to unweave the portal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammerOfGod Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 I think he got it slightly mixed up with when they fled from Altra and it was Aviendha throwing fireballs off a back of a horse towards the end while Elayne tried to unweave the portal. I think you are correct...Nynaeve is too valuable a resourse to be throwing fireball's around at this and that... I see at least two more books...there is just to much to be done yet... Eqwene has to take over the White Tower while under seige by the Seanchan... Moiraine still has to be rescued... The cannons still have to be forged... Elayne still has to face the severed hand... Rand has to wander around blind for a time... Something has to be done about Taim {on Demandred who has been posing as Taim since Lord of Chaos} Taim was killed in the borderlands around the time of the events in The Dragon Reborn... Rand has to make a deal with Tuon... The United Nations have to prepare for The Last Battle... Rand has to die in the battle....then be reserrected and his Harum has to get on a Sea Folk ship and go live somewhere over the rainbow... All the females have to get pregnant... Elayne is already in that condition Avendha Nynaeve Egwene Bearlain Tuon Queen Aleahandra Faile Several Dozen Maidens of the Spear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guarneri Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 I'd be perfectly content if all the main characters got STDs in the first chapter and the Dark Lord died of AIDS, to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuenjato Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 All or at least most of those plot points could have been accomplished by book 9... alas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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