[SPOILERS] The Marriage: Discussing Rhaegar, Elia, and Lyanna

[hallapino]

The "secrecy" aspect is ridiculous. It got most of Rhaegar and Lyanna's families killed for no reason. They were both morons and got what they deserved. If I was Ned I would have finished the job in the TOJ when I found out that the whole kidnap/rape thing was a lie.

[falcotron]

4 hours ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

It may not bother him in the books, but the show has painted this picture of incest being taboo because of the Lannisters. I just have a feeling that's how it's gonna play out in the show.

Yes, incest is taboo—but again, incest only means siblings and children. The show hasn't eliminated all the cousin marriages among Westerosi nobles. It would be wildly anachronistic if they suddenly pretended that Jon doesn't think like a Stark, but instead like a 21st century American. And if they tried to present that as him thinking that way because he's a Stark, the way many Jon fanboys seem to want, that would be insulting the viewers' intelligence.

4 hours ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

The Rhaegar usurping thing could easily be thrown into a Bran vision.  The reason to add it is to get Jon to feel honor bound to uphold his father's wishes.  He may even think like some on this board and feel like because Lyanna and Rhaegar ran away their actions caused so many to die over love, and something like knowing Rhaegar was going to try and kill his father for killing the woman he loves family, could help him accept what he has to do, and he may even see that Rhaegar rode off to fight Robert because he felt Robert would kill his soon to be born child and Lyanna.  Also what if he felt he could just kill Robert, and then get to his father before before anyone else could, call off the bounty on Ned, and offer the death of his father as payment for Aerys crimes, then have Lyanna tell Ned she loves Rhaegar and they are married.  Ned wouldn't have fought that.  He would have done anything to protect his sister and her wishes.  Especially being he was thrust into a role he never intended having, the 2 people who would have been and were in that role, (Richard Brandon)  forbid the marriage were already dead.  Ned and Lyanna were close. I think he would have done anything she asked him.  And knowing all that could help Jon accept who he is and what he must do a little better of a little quicker.  

That sounds like a lot of background to drop in the last 6 episodes of the show for a pretty minor benefit.

Really, what's the struggle involved in Jon upholding his father's wishes? If his father's wishes were all about prophecy (which they don't seem to be), he's already upholding them, by leading the fight against the dead. If his father wanted him to be King of Westeros, he's not going to uphold them (unless you think the show is going to do a war against the dead, a war against Cersei, and a war between Jon and Dany), so why give him motivation to do so? And if it's not one of those, what else is it?

[ShadowKitteh]

12 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Sorry but I have to repeat what other people have said but you chose refusing to listen to. 

You are using knowledge of book Rhaegar to explain show Rhaegar. 

This is totally wrong.

In the show, there is no information about Elia can not have third child. 

There is no information about Rhaegar needs a third "head". 

There is no information about Rhaegar is very into prophecy. 

So all of you opinion are baseless and invalid. 

In the show, Rhaegar is a handsome and gentle prince who likes to sing. 

That is it. 

he did what he did to get into Lyanna's pants. 

Simple and straightforward. 

I do not understand why you feel Rhaegar has to have a special reason (other than his love and desire in Lyanna) to do what he did. 

Is it possible to not belittle other people, and stop adding to the toxicity please? No one's opinion is baseless and invalid. Not even ones you disagree with.

Why watch season 8 if we have all the answers already? Why is anyone here discussing it?

The series isn't over yet. Neither are the books. We're going to get more information from both.

I see nothing wrong with some people using book canon to support what might happen on the show, and some things on the show will be in the books, because GRRM has told D&D. No one is forcing you to do the same. 

I personally find it fun to speculate, after all this is a giant mystery story set in a fantastical world, that is so detailed it seems real. It's FUN.

I had all the info I needed on Jon's legitimacy in the ToJ scene. KG only fight to the death over a King. And that nugget is true for Book & Show. Perhaps in the books Bran will know that because it's something all children are taught. Kingsguard: Job Title = Job Description. 

That will prompt him to go back and see the wedding on his own, and learn the truth. That scene however, happening in his head in the book without Sam, doesn't make for interactive drama with other characters in the present visually.

Also - I see no reason for any sort of annulment in the books since Targs plural marry. I also suspect it would piss off Dorne less. However, that's definitely not something that's been established in the show, so I get why they added the annulment stuff. It also gives Sam an opportunity to be in the scene with Bran... and makes it better visually. I was disappointed, but I get why they did it, and they made it work.

As for the prophecy, it either will or won't come up on the show. But I think the three heads in the book are definitely Jon + Dany + Baby. I've never thought it would be Tyrion.

If the prophecy does come up in the show, it can still come via Bran or Melisandre - she seems to know things too. It's not that big of a detail, so it's not necessary info we need right now (if we get it at all.)

And regarding Aunt/Nephew - I'll be disappointed if the book even mentions it, since this civilization is based on that of 15th Century England. No one would care, as it's not really considered incest, and it locks up the property better, which is why Noble/Royal houses wed. Its legal now here in 2017 Earth. Same for cousins. But so many people are treating it as bad as Twincest. Ned's parents were cousins, and no one cares.

If the show mentions it, I hope they go for a laugh. 

 

[falcotron]

2 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Also - I see no reason for any sort of annulment in the books, since Targs plural marry.

Except that Targs haven't done so since 47 AC, and that precedent is Maegor, which nobody really wants to follow. Reread the history of Targaryen polygamy from Maegor up to Daeron II forbidding any of his family to take two wives, and their struggles with the Faith, and it's not at all clear that modern Targs are allowed to do it. (GRRM summarized it as "If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object"—and Rhaegar didn't have a dragon.)

But I think that's exactly why Jon will be the product of a bigamous marriage. That leaves a lot of room for someone to throw doubt on his legitimacy, but not nearly enough to automatically dismiss it (especially if the marriage was performed by a Septon). So Dany will be faced with someone who has a better claim than her, which she could challenge if she wanted to, and she'll have to figure out that she doesn't want to. And the reason she doesn't want to is that birthrights and claims aren't the end-all and be-all. What matters now isn't whether she can prove her claim to be the best, it's whether she can win the throne, and whether she should.

But you're right about the reasons why the show would change it to annulment. Also, while for the books having a long internal struggle for Dany that's central to her arc is a critical thing, for the show it's an impossible thing; whatever struggle she has over Jon's claim needs to be something she can get through in two or three short conversations with her advisors, so it has to be simplified. And making Jon's legitimacy completely unambiguous does that.

[Iron Mother]

14 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

You are using knowledge of book Rhaegar to explain show Rhaegar. 

This is totally wrong.

Do you think you're special?  I've already addressed your concern to others in this thread.  I can't make personal engraved responses to every random individual. 

[Iron Mother]

15 hours ago, falcotron said:

I think the whole point of revealing R+L=J to Dany and Jon is the same as in the books—the struggle will not be a war, it will be Dany's own struggle over what it means. She'll have conversations with multiple characters before she finally gets to the conclusion that she was wrong all along to think her birthright guarantees that she either will or should be Queen, but that she actually does have better reasons to take the throne after all.

I've seen this coming for a while.  I thought Daenerys would no longer desire the throne and re-think her whole life ambitions up until this point.  I think it is symbolic it was VISERYION to turn dead.... because afterall, the "conquer Westeros" was his ambition which she took up.  Then it became all she ever knew.

[Iron Mother]

12 hours ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

I do however feel that in the show what you said about the prophecy and Rhaegar's beliefs is waaaaay too complicated for it. They will just simply say that Rhaegar and Lyanna ran away with each because they were in love.  That's way more palatable for a television audience.

I agree it would be... except, they have already introduced these items of annulment and marriage to the second wife and IS AeJon really a bastard (no he isn't) and so on.  So, I'm just going by what the writers have introduced.

If they don't plan to make use of it, why is it there?  If it was just a fling for love, why are they bringing out all these little pieces of information about possible legitimacy and all that.  Didn't Bran say in plain words "he is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne" after that brief interaction with Sam?

[Iron Mother]

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

The most obvious reason why they kept their marriage in secret, is because their parents would never agree to it.

 

You may be right, however, I initially thought it was secret because Rhaegar had some kind of foreknowledge of the slayings to come and that the child would have to be a secret.  It would have to be kept hidden (Dorne is a great place to hide something like that) in order to protect the child.  AKA Luke Skywalker theory.  Dorne=Tatooine?

[Yukle]

I still don't get why Rhaegar annulled his marriage. That means it was never legally valid, so it disinherits his children to Elia.

Aegon I married both of his sisters, so that Targs have a history of bigamy. Of course, it can lead to issues when both wives have children (like in the Dance of the Dragons) but the issue there was that it was Aerys I had the audacity to name a woman as his heir.

[of man and wolf]

If Rhaegar wasnt a dick somehow, this doesnt make Lyanna come off particularly well when she didnt seem to care that her family was tortured by the Mad King. Being a Stark, she's most lilely be an upfront and honest person who wouldnt allow her family and those she cared about to risk their lives over something they weren't fully getting all the facts about. This must mean that Rhaegar did not allow her to keep in touch with her loved one's and hence the rebellion that followed.

 

Face it. Rhaegar was most likely a dick that got what he deserved.

[of man and wolf]

4 hours ago, hallapino said:

The "secrecy" aspect is ridiculous. It got most of Rhaegar and Lyanna's families killed for no reason. They were both morons and got what they deserved. If I was Ned I would have finished the job in the TOJ when I found out that the whole kidnap/rape thing was a lie.

Exactly. That is so screwed up what they did and put on Ned. He was the one who had to struggle with this reality for years and years afterwards. I mean his Father and Brother were executed for this, and it seems as though Lyanna either didnt care or she was not allowed to by her noble Rhaegar.

[Megorova]

12 hours ago, Eaglesghs said:

I get it that he's obsessed with the prophecy and all and thus maybe thought he would just have a bunch of sons and name them all Aegon to hopefully fulfill the prophecy... but this sounds kind of ridiculous.

Unless Elia's Aegon wasn't Rhaegar's Aegon. He was Oberyn's son. But Rhaegar and Elia agreed that while they will be in their fake marriage, Rhaegar will give Targarien name to her children from Oberyn, so he not only gave them his surname, but also gave them Targarien's style first names. He wanted to have a son named Aegon, so when Elia gave birth to son, he gave him this name. And later he told Lyanna that if they will have a boy, they will name him the same - Aegon.

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

You may be right, however, I initially thought it was secret because Rhaegar had some kind of foreknowledge of the slayings to come and that the child would have to be a secret. 

As farfetched as my own theories

Quote

It would have to be kept hidden (Dorne is a great place to hide something like that) in order to protect the child.

Or they went to Dorne for honeymoon. And while they were there, they recieved news that Robert told everyone that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, as result rebellion started, and Lyanna's father and brother were allegedly killed by Aerys.

Originally Lyanna and Rhaegar planned to elop, and marry in secret. Though before going, they told about their plans to Robert. He promissed them that later, after they will get married, he will tell everything to Aerys and Lyanna's family. They weren't going to keep their marryage in secret forever. They didn't inform their families beforehand about their intentions, to prevent any interception from them. They thought that afterwards, when they will return from Dorne, and hopefully by that time Lyanna will be already pregnant, her parents eventually will get over it. And regarding Aerys, he will also agree to acknowledge their marriage, when Rhaegar will reveal to him that his previous marriage with Elia was fake, and those children are actually kids of Oberyn Martell. And that Martells are actually also didn't wanted that marriage between Elia and Rhaegar, they agreed only because Aerys wanted it. Oberyn will pacify Martells, he and Elia will be always grateful fo Rhaegar for what he did for them, so Dorne will always be loyal to Targariens, no additional political marriages needed.

By the time when Lyanna and Rhaegar discovered that Robert set them up, they realised that their unborn baby is in grave danger. And it doesn't actually matter anymore whether they will tell everyone about what actually happened or not. Because everything already went too far. Lyanna's family members died, people began rebellion against King. Revealing their love story, under this circumstances, will make everything only worse.

Also probably people from Aerys' entourage distorted communication between Aerys and Rhaegar, and prevented Aerys from finding out thuth about Lyanna, or hearing rumours according to which everyone thought that it was Aerys who killed Starks. Because they were working for Tywin.

At this stage of events, revealing truth won't stop rebellion, and won't bring dead Starks back. So Rhaegar went to fight against Robert, he planned to defeat him, and then tell everything to Aerys, remaining Starks and everyone else. He wasn't going to tell anyone about his wife and baby, until all threats will be eliminated. But he was killed by Robert. Lyanna died in childbirth. Aerys was killed by Jaime. Robert became king. If by that time there was anyone left who knew what actually happened, it wasn't wise to reveal the truth. So even if Ned did knew, by the end of it, that rebellion was build on a lie, there was no point to expose Robert. That would've only caused danger to baby Jon.   

Quote

Aegon I married both of his sisters, so that Targs have a history of bigamy.

Faith of Seven doesn't acknowledge bigamy, polygamy, or more than 1 wife X 1 husband. And as we saw in last episode, Rhaegar was follower of Seven.

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, of man and wolf said:

If Rhaegar wasnt a dick somehow, this doesnt make Lyanna come off particularly well when she didnt seem to care that her family was tortured by the Mad King. Being a Stark, she's most lilely be an upfront and honest person who wouldnt allow her family and those she cared about to risk their lives over something they weren't fully getting all the facts about. This must mean that Rhaegar did not allow her to keep in touch with her loved one's and hence the rebellion that followed.

 

Face it. Rhaegar was most likely a dick that got what he deserved.

Or Lyanna and Rhaegar was set up by Robert and Tywin, and they prevented communication between Lyanna and Starks, and Rhaegar and Aerys. Tywin had Jaime intercepting any letters or messengers from Rhaegar getting to King, and Robert used his proximity to Starks to retrieve all ravens coming from Dorne with letters from Lyanna. It's called fox in a chicken coop.

When it all began, Lyanna and Rhaegar didn't knew anything, and by the time news about rebellion reached Dorne, it was already too late. Also by that time Lyanna was already "heavily pregnant", so it was out of the question for her to travel back North to stop massacre.

[Iron Mother]

2 hours ago, Yukle said:

I still don't get why Rhaegar annulled his marriage. That means it was never legally valid, so it disinherits his children to Elia.

Aegon I married both of his sisters, so that Targs have a history of bigamy. Of course, it can lead to issues when both wives have children (like in the Dance of the Dragons) but the issue there was that it was Aerys I had the audacity to name a woman as his heir.

There could be a few reasons - the one I believe to fit the overall story better is he knew his first family was going to die, therefore, he had to make sure his second bride (but especially the child) was "authentic" (through marriage) and was a legitimate heir to the throne.

Does no one think they discussed what to name  the child?  She named him AEGON.  That means Rhaegar already had a child named Aegon and AeJon was basically a replacement for Aegon (who was or would be killed).  I really believe there was divine prophecy involved.

[Iron Mother]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Unless Elia's Aegon wasn't Rhaegar's Aegon. He was Oberyn's son.

Really?  The show never barely explore any characters from Dorne, we never saw Elia.... but you think they are going to pull THIS out at the last moment to explain the motivations of Rhaegar - a character who we also have NEVER seen before except for a 10-second murky glance through the wig of Viserys from season 1?

[Megorova]

17 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

Really?  The show never barely explore any characters from Dorne, we never saw Elia.... but you think they are going to pull THIS out at the last moment to explain the motivations of Rhaegar

I think that Dorne is out of the picture for the rest of the story, at least in a TV-show. Though in books something like this could be revealed later. If GRRM will ever explain Rhaegar's reason for annulment, it is possible that my theory (about fake marriage with Elia, and that her kids are from Oberyn) is one of possible options.

Quote

a character who we also have NEVER seen before except for a 10-second murky glance through the wig of Viserys from season 1?

 I thought he looked similar to Viserys, but I haven't realised how exactly wig of Viserys

[Iron Mother]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

I think that Dorne is out of the picture for the rest of the story, at least in a TV-show. Though in books something like this could be revealed later. If GRRM will ever explain Rhaegar's reason for annulment, it is possible that my theory (about fake marriage with Elia, and that her kids are from Oberyn) is one of possible options.

 I thought he looked similar to Viserys, but I haven't realised how exactly wig of Viserys

Yes... lol if you look there are all these news stories asking if the actor from Viserys appeared in episode 7 finale.  I was dying!

But I was saying the books have to be aside for this conversation -- the show has now totally diverged from Martin's story. 

https://i.redd.it/kax4ssbv4q3y.png

The actor DOES look a lot like Viserys tho.  Makes sense since they were brothers.  I think it was good casting.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

23 hours ago, tugela said:

A marriage can only be annulled if it was either not consummated or was illegal to start with. So, if Rhaegar really did do this, then there must have been something like that with his original marriage. It is possible that the real father of Elia's children ..."

thanks for pointing this out. It's really ridiculous that the Septon would annul a marriage with two biological children. I think the show runners thought people would believe annulment to be just like a divorce. It's is so not. Rhaegar would need strong proof to show that the children were not his and that the marriage was never consummated. It would require going in front of a judge/septon. It's definitely not something done in secret. Plus, he didn't need to annul anything, he can take a second wife because of the precedent set by Aegon the Conqueror. 

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

4 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

I agree it would be... except, they have already introduced these items of annulment and marriage to the second wife and IS AeJon really a bastard (no he isn't) and so on.  So, I'm just going by what the writers have introduced.

If they don't plan to make use of it, why is it there?  If it was just a fling for love, why are they bringing out all these little pieces of information about possible legitimacy and all that.  Didn't Bran say in plain words "he is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne" after that brief interaction with Sam?

Yeah i should have been more clear.  The part about Rhaegar wanting the Targ dynasty to continue on and quite possibly him believing he had to wed and impregnate a Stark to battle the Great Other and be the Prince that was Promised could be thrown in there because Mel has mentioned that term on a few occasions.  I just don't think it will be the whole 3 heads of the dragon thing and they will make it more about Rhaegar and Lyanna being in love rather than a prophecy that will confuse the hell out of a large portion of their audience, especially the unsullied audience.  If they do continue with the prophecy aspect I think it will be very watered down.