[SPOILERS] The Marriage: Discussing Rhaegar, Elia, and Lyanna

[Sand11751]

10 minutes ago, falcotron said:

What makes you think the showrunners cooked this up?

Sure, in the books Rhaegar probably did something different from an annulment. Maybe a bigamous marriage. Or maybe they didn't even marry. But he definitely did run away with another woman and get her pregnant. GRRM cooked that up, not D&D.

"If Elia was the one woman from Dorne who didn't have a backbone and just submitted to Rhaegar's wishes for another kid (in show)" was the relevant part to what the showrunners may decide to go with. GRRM may have a different take.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

7 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

Many times I had wondered what were Ned's thoughts and feelings at the Tower of Joy. 

The dialogue with the Kingsguards shows quite well his surprise and his doubts when he found  them there, like "WTF happening here?!? WHY on earth this honorable enemies of mine are HERE, of all the places where they should have been". He was baffled, but I think he entered the ToJ still completely ignorant of what he would found, with many questions in his mind but no answers. 

And let's not forget that he had left King's Landing in bad terms with Robert, but not before pledging himself and his house to him. When Ned entered the TOJ, Robert was his king. May be when the rebellion started the goal was just to get rid of Aerys, no to depose the entire dinasty, but in the course of the year that changed. 
And then, the horror, the shock beyond words for Ned: he found a dying sister, and a Targaryen heir. For the Targaryen loyalists, not just the heir, but the very true King, as the kingsguards set proof by fighting to the death. 
Lyanna makes him promise, we don't know exactly what, but we know at least, that he had to protect the child. He promised, and then... well, I think poor Ned did the best he could to be true to his word, both to Lyanna and to Robert, bending it but trying  to not break it. And he had to lie to everybody from then on.
From a strict point of view, he commited high treason to Robert by hiding Jon, and I have no reasons to think that he would not have been treated like a traitor had Robert ever found out that Ned was hiding Rhaegar's heir in his own home. When Robert went to ¨Winterfell, Ned received him bending the knee, that shows that he still considered Robert his king, Ned didn't have it in himself the duplicity to fake a knee bending. I'm sure it wasn't easy for him to lie, that's why he didn't want to talk about Lyanna. It's weird that the Stark children know that their father loved Lyanna very much, but he never talked about her. 

For all this, I don't think that Ned was thinking he was raising a future king.  That ship had already sailed, that's why when he was in the dungeon "the thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words".

So I think we agree and can say that Arthur Dayne and the other Kingsguard were there protecting their King correct?  Aerys and Rhaegar are dead, Rhaegar's other kids are dead.  I guess the real question would be, was Jon born before Robert killed Rhaegar?  Or does being in the womb still count?  

It makes the Tower of Joy even more mysterious.  And I'd like to know what else Ned knew at the time.  Did he know they were married and in love, was Lyanna telling Ned Jon's last name enough to imply they were wed.  That's a lot of information to process and what did he tell Howland Reed upon exiting the Tower.  Still so many questions.

[LucyMormont]

10 hours ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

So I think we agree and can say that Arthur Dayne and the other Kingsguard were there protecting their King correct?

Yes, even considering only book information, I never had a shadow of doubt that those three men weren't there guarding Rhaegar's mistress, who was "in a bed of blood"; while leaving unprotected the rest of the royal family. Out of the 7 members of the KG, Jaime was in King's Landing, he killed Aerys and failed to protect Ellia and Rhaegar's elder children (a thing that he remembers later with shame and guilt). Ser Barristan, Ser Darry and Prince Lewyn Martell were at the Trident with Rhaegar, only Ser Barristan survived, and as Robert's prisoner he was in no position to guard anybody. So, the only 3 remaining KG, instead of fleeing to Dragonstone with Rhaella and Viserys, were in some Dornish desert?? No way this could have happened. No way they would have been there for Rhaegar's mistress, and not even for Rhaegar's wife alone, having another Prince to protect in the line of succession. So,it was obvious that there was a newborn in that tower (as the "bed of blood" suggests), and that newborn was the King in the KG's eyes.

 

10 hours ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

It makes the Tower of Joy even more mysterious.  And I'd like to know what else Ned knew at the time.  Did he know they were married and in love, was Lyanna telling Ned Jon's last name enough to imply they were wed.  That's a lot of information to process and what did he tell Howland Reed upon exiting the Tower.  Still so many questions

Yes, a lot of questions, we are shown only some pieces of a bigger puzzle, they are not enough to  figure the whole picture out.
I've ever suspected that someone in the Dayne household is in posession of some of those pieces, but that's only books information, I don't think we'll receive more than we already had from the show, unless some upcoming Bran vision brings out to light more pieces. 
From the books, we are told that after the events at the ToJ, Ned went to Starfall to return Dawn to House Dayne. Later when Arya befriends Edric Dayne, who had not been born yet at the moment of the events, but who was with TBwB when Arya met him, he tells her that Jon and him are milk brothers, because his wet nurse Wylla was Jon's mother, so that's the official story he was told. In the books, Catelyn hears rumors that name Ashara Dayne (Edric's aunt)  as Jon's mother. 
I think that Wylla, a servant to House Dayne,  was at the Tower of Joy, she was brought there to serve Lyanna, and she was indeed Jon's wet nurse,,, possibly the same woman we see in the show putting the baby in Ned's arms. This woman at least, and also most likely other service staff, later returned to Starfall. Was Jon with Ned when he went there to return Dawn? If not, where did he leave Jon? If he was, who received him? There has to be more people there who know about Jon and who he was. 
I hope some day we'll get the answers.

[falcotron]

8 hours ago, Sand11751 said:

If Elia was the one woman from Dorne who didn't have a backbone

This isn't the only way to take it.

For example, does Ellaria Sand not have a backbone because she doesn't care that Oberyn sleeps around, and produced daughters before her and may well produce daughters after? No, at least not as long as she gets to have fun too. And that's the actual stereotype of strong Dornish women, not jealous types or fiercely protective mom types. Sure, there's a difference between a long-term paramour and a wife, but part of that difference is simply that a paramour relationship isn't respected outside of Dorne, so even if a Targaryen Prince wanted to do things the Dornish way, they'd pretty much have to get married.

Of course in the books, we know that stereotype is very overblown, and most Dornish really aren't like Oberyn and Ellaria, and a Princess raised for marriage shopping to a non-Dornish lord, you'd assume to be even less like them. So if GRRM wanted to go that way, he'd have to do some work to establish that Elia was like Ellaria, and why. But he could easily do so. And then, if D&D wanted to adapt that—well, we haven't met, or heard about, any women from Dorne besides Ellaria, Bad Pussy, her sister Growly, and her other sister Growly, and other than them, all we know about Dorne is Bronn's tales, so all they really need to do is remind us that Elia is Dornish and they're done. 

And this is just one example of how GRRM might explain it—and remember, he does have to explain it somehow, because Rhaegar did go off and knock up another woman and Dorne didn't go to war over it—that would fit the show.

[ShadowKitteh]

On 8/29/2017 at 0:39 PM, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

The Catholic Church often refuses to marry couples where the children are "bastards" for lack of a better term.  The Catholic Church here in Louisiana refused to marry my Cousin and her Fiancé because he had a child from a previous marriage that wasn't baptized.  When I got married I had to go through weeks of catholic school called Pre-Cana and my stepdaughter had already been baptized by the Catholic Church so we were allowed after my Pre-Cana.  

All of that is before being married in the Catholic Church, and none of that has any bearing on an annulment. Children remain legitimate if the Church grants an annulment. It only affects the married couple, not their kids. 

As for Westeros - all we know is what Sam has said, and he's stated only that a man sets aside his lawful wife. Nothing about the kids. Nothing about a woman doing it (since she's his property, she wouldn't likely have any rights to speak of in the matter.)

[Apoplexy]

12 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

All of that is before being married in the Catholic Church, and none of that has any bearing on an annulment. Children remain legitimate if the Church grants an annulment. It only affects the married couple, not their kids. 

Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong, children can be disinherited, but those born within the institution of marriage cannot be deemed bastards. 

[ShadowKitteh]

18 hours ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

This begs the question, when Ned entered the Tower of Joy, and found Lyanna there, did he not realize he was in the presence of the Legitimate King?  That's why Dayne and other Kingsguard were there.  They were protecting their King.  what if Ned raised Jon as a bastard partly to give what could be the future King a different outlook than most royal and even noble children get.  I know it was mostly to protect him, but it makes me wonder if this ever crossed his mind, that he was grooming what could be the future king of the 7 kingdoms.  

Ned knew of Jon's legitimacy. He would have known when the KG fought to the death. They'd never do that over a bastard, nor would they have even been there, they'd have been with Rhaegar at the Trident, with likely a completely different outcome. 

Sean Bean even plays it in the Pilot (and from what I remember, the dialog is very similar to the book.) Go back and watch the puppy scene. Bran begs his father to keep them, and Ned instantly shuts him down. Then when Jon points out they were meant to have them, being the Stark sigil, and five pups for the five legit kids... Ned knows exactly who is speaking to him, the rightful heir to the Seven Kingdoms. The Great Chain of Being was very important to these people (15th Century England), in that God chose the King... the same seems to be true in GRRM's world. 

Ned says nothing to Jon, doesn't argue, doesn't belittle, doesn't say no. It's almost as if he's been given an order (indirect as it may be), but a strong suggestion nonetheless. He immediately states the kids will bear the responsibility. 

Ned says NO to his own son, and YES to the "bastard" (who is actually the rightful King.)

 

[Apoplexy]

1 hour ago, LucyMormont said:

I think that Wylla, a servant to House Dayne,  was at the Tower of Joy, she was brought there to serve Lyanna, and she was indeed Jon's wet nurse,,, possibly the same woman we see in the show putting the baby in Ned's arms. This woman at least, and also most likely other service staff, later returned to Starfall. Was Jon with Ned when he went there to return Dawn? If not, where did he left Jon? If he was, who received him? There has to be more people there who knows about Jon and who he was. 

I hope some day we'll get the answers.

I've always been thinking that Lyanna could not have been left alone in the ToJ to give birth by herself. Somebody who was extremely trustworthy had to be with her, if the secret isn't out yet. While it's possible Wylla was trustworthy, I doubt a servant would be in on the secret. Maybe she wasn't told who the father was and was just asked to pretend it was her son. And Ashara's committing suicide leads me to believe she was somehow involved in the whole matter. 

[ShadowKitteh]

7 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong, children can be disinherited, but those born within the institution of marriage cannot be deemed bastards. 

Correct. That's the point I was trying to make. The annulment/dissolution, only applies to the married persons, and only in the way of it being a sacrament, so the couple can be remarried in the Church. It absolves them of the "sin" of divorce. I know, I've received a Papal annulment.

What it means in Westeros, we only have Sam's brief definition, and he says nothing about making kids illegitimate.

 

 

[falcotron]

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong, children can be disinherited, but those born within the institution of marriage cannot be deemed bastards. 

Well, the Church said that's true. There are cases where people did it anyway, but they weren't common. It would be far easier to just frame the mother for infidelity.

The most famous case was Henry VIII declaring his first daughter Mary a bastard. Even though he'd already broken with the Church at this point, and gotten Parliament to agree, he still wasn't sure it was valid, so he spent years negotiating with Mary to get her to sign a document accepting her illegitimacy and refuting the Pope's authority to say otherwise.

[falcotron]

2 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

I know, I've received a Papal annulment.

Well, presumably your annulment was under the 1983 CIC or its 1917 predecessor, not 15th century rules. But, while lots of details are different, the principles are the same. (Assuming yours was a voidable marriage rather than a void one.)

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

15 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Ned knew of Jon's legitimacy. He would have known when the KG fought to the death. They'd never do that over a bastard, nor would they have even been there, they'd have been with Rhaegar at the Trident, with likely a completely different outcome. 

Sean Bean even plays it in the Pilot (and from what I remember, the dialog is very similar to the book.) Go back and watch the puppy scene. Bran begs his father to keep them, and Ned instantly shuts him down. Then when Jon points out they were meant to have them, being the Stark sigil, and five pups for the five legit kids... Ned knows exactly who is speaking to him, the rightful heir to the Seven Kingdoms. The Great Chain of Being was very important to these people (15th Century England), in that God chose the King... the same seems to be true in GRRM's world. 

Ned says nothing to Jon, doesn't argue, doesn't belittle, doesn't say no. It's almost as if he's been given an order (indirect as it may be), but a strong suggestion nonetheless. He immediately states the kids will bear the responsibility. 

Ned says NO to his own son, and YES to the "bastard" (who is actually the rightful King.)

 

Damn you just made more questions.  Lol

[ShadowKitteh]

On 8/31/2017 at 7:03 AM, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

Damn you just made more questions.  Lol

It's funny..... I've seen that first episode a bazillion times just making friends who have never seen the show, sit and watch it.... and a friend was over from the UK, and was very, "I don't like Fantasy..." and I told her to just watch the first ep, and if she wasn't in, no worries... and that it's a MYSTERY, not really Fantasy - that's only the semi-setting, it's more Historical Fiction where the people don't believe in the fantastical things...  she's soooooo sucked in now.

It was that viewing, that I (finally) realized they told Sean, and he plays it perfectly, just like later in the episode when Robert asks about, "Your bastard's mother..." when he says to Ned, "You never told me what she looks like." and Ned responds, "Nor will I." 

Brilliant stuff.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

18 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

It's funny..... I've seen that first episode a bazillion times just making friends who have never seen the show, sit and watch it.... and a friend was over from the UK, and was very, "I don't like Fantasy..." and I told her to just watch the first ep, and if she wasn't in, no worries... and that it's a MYSTERY, not really Fantasy - that's only the semi-setting, it's more Historical Fiction where the people don't believe in the fantastical things...  she's soooooo sucked in now.

It was that viewing, that I (finally) realized they told Sean, and he plays it perfectly, just like later in the episode when Robert asks about, "Your bastard's mother..." when he says to Ned, "You never told me what she looks like." and Ned responds, "Nor will I." 

Brilliant stuff.

It's fun going back and seeing all the foreshadowing you missed.  

[ShadowKitteh]

15 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

It's fun going back and seeing all the foreshadowing you missed.  

Very!

 

[Iron Mother]

On 8/30/2017 at 3:34 PM, ShadowKitteh said:

Sean Bean even plays it in the Pilot (and from what I remember, the dialog is very similar to the book.) Go back and watch the puppy scene. Bran begs his father to keep them, and Ned instantly shuts him down. Then when Jon points out they were meant to have them, being the Stark sigil, and five pups for the five legit kids... Ned knows exactly who is speaking to him, the rightful heir to the Seven Kingdoms. The Great Chain of Being was very important to these people (15th Century England), in that God chose the King... the same seems to be true in GRRM's world. 

Ned says nothing to Jon, doesn't argue, doesn't belittle, doesn't say no. It's almost as if he's been given an order (indirect as it may be), but a strong suggestion nonetheless. He immediately states the kids will bear the responsibility. 

Ned says NO to his own son, and YES to the "bastard" (who is actually the rightful King.)

I would say that's looking into things a little too deeply

[ShadowKitteh]

On 9/2/2017 at 1:24 AM, Iron Mother said:

I would say that's looking into things a little too deeply

Seriously? Describing what happened in the first episode is too deep?

In what way? I'm curious, or possibly not understanding what you mean.

What's your opinion of N+A=J? (Hopefully, we can finally put that one to bed.)

I'm shocked anyone thinks there's anything "too deep" especially for this forum.

 

 

 

 

[King Jon Snow Stark]

On 8/29/2017 at 1:55 PM, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

Good question, the only people who really have proof he isn't full of shit is Meera, Sansa, Arya, and Littlefinger's corpse, I guess Sam too, but he hasn't said anything to anyone else about their past to confirm he isn't full of it.  

Dany will probably question the legitimacy of the marriage not the fact Jon is the son of her brother and Lyanna Stark. A diary and a wizard isn't proof the annulment was legal. 

[Zapho]

If the High Septon legitimized both the annulment and the subsequent marriage, and he couldn't have done so without the King's consent, does this mean the Mad King knew about it or was the High Septon of the opinion that Rhaegar was speaking for the rightful King as regent because Aerys II had been declared mad?

In the World of Ice and Fire it's mentioned that there were possible attempts to declare Aerys mad and unfit to rule. It doesn't seem unlikely imo. This could be one reason why Rhaegar wanted to annul his marriage with Elia - he wanted to protect her if his father was holding her hostage against Rhaegar. It could have been a good reason to also declare their children bastards at the time - something he could have rectified in his will or later when he truly became King.

In both the books and the show Aerys sends the pregnant Queen and his young son Viserys to Dragonstone, but Elia and her children are kept in the Red Keep. Did Aerys not let them go?

Aerys does everything to stir up trouble and outrage against his son Rhaegar. First by burning the Starks, then demanding the heads of Ned and Robert. He's the real reason things went so far that they couldn't be resolved peacefully any more. Aerys wanted to get rid of Rhaegar eventually and prevent him from getting support for Aerys' incapacitation.

[Iron Mother]

9 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Seriously? Describing what happened in the first episode is too deep?

In what way? I'm curious, or possibly not understanding what you mean.

The idea Ned Stark eschewed the direwolf puppies.............. but "obeyed" Jon's idea to keep them because Ned knew Jon was actually the Heir to the kingdoms.

I'm actually lol right now