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Iron Mother

[SPOILERS] The Marriage: Discussing Rhaegar, Elia, and Lyanna

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6 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

The idea Ned Stark eschewed the direwolf puppies.............. but "obeyed" Jon's idea to keep them because Ned knew Jon was actually the Heir to the kingdoms.

I'm actually lol right now

Why? 

That's what happened.

Seriously, what part are you disputing? 

Are you saying:

That Bran wasn't told "no" by Ned? 

That Ned didn't allow the pups after Jon said what he said? 

That Ned has no idea who Jon is? 

Seriously, what part do you think didn't happen?

 

Edited by ShadowKitteh

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20 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Why? 

That's what happened.

Seriously, what part are you disputing? 

Are you saying:

That Bran wasn't told "no" by Ned? 

That Ned didn't allow the pups after Jon said what he said? 

That Ned has no idea who Jon is? 

Seriously, what part do you think didn't happen?

 

Ned changed his mind when Jon pointed out that the pups matched with the Stark children - that it was clearly a sign from the Old Gods, that the Stark children were meant to have them.

That's a rather more compelling case than Bran and Robb's "I want to keep one of these just-born direwolf pups, dad".

It's also decidedly different from "Ned changed his mind because Jon's the rightful heir to the Iron Throne".

 

It is also worth noting that Jon's statements also changed the minds of the other Northerners present, who had been on the side of mercy-killing the pups. And none of them knew about Jon's parentage.

The logical conclusion is that Ned changed his mind not because who Jon's parents are, but because of the argument that Jon made.

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4 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Why? 

That's what happened.

Seriously, what part are you disputing? 

Are you saying:

That Bran wasn't told "no" by Ned? 

That Ned didn't allow the pups after Jon said what he said? 

That Ned has no idea who Jon is? 

Seriously, what part do you think didn't happen?

 

Kytheros made the point.  Jon pointed out it was maybe an omen for the Stark family.

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6 hours ago, Kytheros said:

Ned changed his mind when Jon pointed out that the pups matched with the Stark children - that it was clearly a sign from the Old Gods, that the Stark children were meant to have them.

That's a rather more compelling case than Bran and Robb's "I want to keep one of these just-born direwolf pups, dad".

It's also decidedly different from "Ned changed his mind because Jon's the rightful heir to the Iron Throne".

 

It is also worth noting that Jon's statements also changed the minds of the other Northerners present, who had been on the side of mercy-killing the pups. And none of them knew about Jon's parentage.

The logical conclusion is that Ned changed his mind not because who Jon's parents are, but because of the argument that Jon made.

I'm not disputing any of that. 

There can be multiple reasons for why humans do things. 

It's definitely far more compelling, and I believe it's very much a big part of it. Absolutely. But I also think it's the source. Ned still knows who Jon is.

The story is based on 15th century England. God chose the King. Divine Right isn't a bumper sticker. God is the head of The Great Chain of Being. Why would Westeros be different? There's an ingrained deference to those higher than your station. That's a foreign concept to 21st century humans, thankfully. Ned can claim Jon is his bastard son all he wants, but Ned know's that isn't true. You can't ignore that, since it's part of the main plot of the entire story.

Ned is the only character who is actively in the story (hopefully we'll get to Howland eventually), who knows Jon's real identity/legitimacy. He knew the moment he saw a baby and had just killed three/two Kingsguard. Show Lyanna confirmed when she called him Aegon Targaryen and not Sand. 

It's also the way it's written, books and show. Book Bran and Robb want them, Theon states there haven't been Direwolves south of he Wall for two hundred years. Show Robb gets a version of that line, and Robb doesn't hold one. The big thing for me is the shift in Ned. He goes against the wishes of his own children, who really want them, and he gives it no thought, until Jon says what he says. He then begrudgingly gives them line-in-the-sand instructions on the having of Direwolves. 

If you think about it, most everything Ned does is in service to his promise to Lyanna, including becoming Hand. 

2 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

Kytheros made the point.  Jon pointed out it was maybe an omen for the Stark family.

Way to not answer any of my questions. They're not hard to answer directly, are they? Yes or No will suffice.

Here they are again:

2 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

Are you saying:

That Bran wasn't told "no" by Ned? 

That Ned didn't allow the pups after Jon said what he said? 

That Ned has no idea who Jon is? 

Seriously, what part do you think didn't happen?

I honestly think some people refuse to see what's right in front of them, because that would mean the show doesn't suck as much as they need it to to validate their hate.

GRRM foreshadows damn near everything in the story. The show has done the same. 

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19 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Way to not answer any of my questions. They're not hard to answer directly, are they? Yes or No will suffice.

Here they are again:

woah missy.................................... slow that up :D

Are you saying:

That Bran wasn't told "no" by Ned? 

That Ned didn't allow the pups after Jon said what he said? 

That Ned has no idea who Jon is? 

Seriously, what part do you think didn't happen?

All true.  DO you feel like Jon perhaps made a better argument as for WHY to keep the pups?  You don't have to be royalty to change someone's mind.  If you think Ned was "obeying" the true king of Westeros, then I guess Ned would have been obeying Jon throughout all season 1 on anything Jon said.  I wonder if Jon ever said something Ned did not obey.  And if that's the case, he would have been putting Catelyn in her place for shunning Jon and being like "listen woman, you need to get onboard with this bastard thing".  But that was never the case.

YES OR NO?

YES?  NO?

YES/NO?

Y/N?

No other answer will suffice.

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1 hour ago, ShadowKitteh said:

I'm not disputing any of that. 

There can be multiple reasons for why humans do things. 

It's definitely far more compelling, and I believe it's very much a big part of it. Absolutely. But I also think it's the source. Ned still knows who Jon is.

The story is based on 15th century England. God chose the King. Divine Right isn't a bumper sticker. God is the head of The Great Chain of Being. Why would Westeros be different? There's an ingrained deference to those higher than your station. That's a foreign concept to 21st century humans, thankfully. Ned can claim Jon is his bastard son all he wants, but Ned know's that isn't true. You can't ignore that, since it's part of the main plot of the entire story.

Ned is the only character who is actively in the story (hopefully we'll get to Howland eventually), who knows Jon's real identity/legitimacy. He knew the moment he saw a baby and had just killed three/two Kingsguard. Show Lyanna confirmed when she called him Aegon Targaryen and not Sand. 

It's also the way it's written, books and show. Book Bran and Robb want them, Theon states there haven't been Direwolves south of he Wall for two hundred years. Show Robb gets a version of that line, and Robb doesn't hold one. The big thing for me is the shift in Ned. He goes against the wishes of his own children, who really want them, and he gives it no thought, until Jon says what he says. He then begrudgingly gives them line-in-the-sand instructions on the having of Direwolves. 

If you think about it, most everything Ned does is in service to his promise to Lyanna, including becoming Hand. 

Way to not answer any of my questions. They're not hard to answer directly, are they? Yes or No will suffice.

Here they are again:

I honestly think some people refuse to see what's right in front of them, because that would mean the show doesn't suck as much as they need it to to validate their hate.

GRRM foreshadows damn near everything in the story. The show has done the same. 

So ... are you arguing that if Robb or Bran had made the exact same argument that Jon did, Ned would've said no?

Are you arguing that all the other Northmen present know that Jon's actually Rhaegar and Lyanna's son? They were all in favor of mercy-killing the pups until Jon made his argument that the pups were a sign from the Old Gods.

If the answer to either or both of these question is "No", then Ned changed his mind on what Jon said, not on who Jon is.

 

 

It's much more of a stretch to argue that Ned changed his mind because Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, than it is to say that Ned changed his mind because Jon made a compelling argument that the pups were from the Old Gods, and the Stark children were meant to  have them. Which of these makes more sense?

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It was the selflessness of Jon's argument that got to Ned - by making it he gave up on having a direwolves his own (as far as they all knew). That's pretty much the complete opposite of Jon gets whatever he wants because of his royal status. If Jon just asked for a cub of his own like Bran and Robb Ned would have said no.

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11 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

I'm not disputing any of that. 

There can be multiple reasons for why humans do things. 

It's definitely far more compelling, and I believe it's very much a big part of it. Absolutely. But I also think it's the source. Ned still knows who Jon is.

The story is based on 15th century England. God chose the King. Divine Right isn't a bumper sticker. God is the head of The Great Chain of Being. Why would Westeros be different? There's an ingrained deference to those higher than your station. That's a foreign concept to 21st century humans, thankfully. Ned can claim Jon is his bastard son all he wants, but Ned know's that isn't true. You can't ignore that, since it's part of the main plot of the entire story.

Ned is the only character who is actively in the story (hopefully we'll get to Howland eventually), who knows Jon's real identity/legitimacy. He knew the moment he saw a baby and had just killed three/two Kingsguard. Show Lyanna confirmed when she called him Aegon Targaryen and not Sand. 

It's also the way it's written, books and show. Book Bran and Robb want them, Theon states there haven't been Direwolves south of he Wall for two hundred years. Show Robb gets a version of that line, and Robb doesn't hold one. The big thing for me is the shift in Ned. He goes against the wishes of his own children, who really want them, and he gives it no thought, until Jon says what he says. He then begrudgingly gives them line-in-the-sand instructions on the having of Direwolves. 

If you think about it, most everything Ned does is in service to his promise to Lyanna, including becoming Hand. 

Way to not answer any of my questions. They're not hard to answer directly, are they? Yes or No will suffice.

Here they are again:

I honestly think some people refuse to see what's right in front of them, because that would mean the show doesn't suck as much as they need it to to validate their hate.

GRRM foreshadows damn near everything in the story. The show has done the same. 

I agree with you. I figured out Jon's identity in the first book and this was one of the interactions that sealed it for me.  There is a marked change in Ned's attitude and he acts as if he is following an order, regardless of how compelling the argument was or wasn't. 

 

Quote

The logical conclusion is that Ned changed his mind not because who Jon's parents are, but because of the argument that Jon made.

The scene alone viewed at face value, yes.  When viewed in light of Ned's POV chapters in the first book, no.

The show was trying to get some things right when D&D had a book source, but now that they're flying on their own they are making a right massive mess of things.  But they don't have all the details, either.

Fans of both are reading between the lines of the show, combining that with what they know from reading the novels, and trying to sync the trajectory that these two idiots are "following". 

I cant wait for the books, I do feel that the show quality has become dreadful now that the books have been outpaced BUT I think that GRRM's last two novels are going to be HUGE and condensing all that down to TV format requires greater skill than D&D are showing this last season. 

 They are doing the best that they can. We just all wish it was better.

Edited by Hedera of the Helix
Messed up the quotes

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11 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

woah missy.................................... slow that up :D

Are you saying:

That Bran wasn't told "no" by Ned? 

That Ned didn't allow the pups after Jon said what he said? 

That Ned has no idea who Jon is? 

Seriously, what part do you think didn't happen?

All true.  DO you feel like Jon perhaps made a better argument as for WHY to keep the pups?  You don't have to be royalty to change someone's mind.  If you think Ned was "obeying" the true king of Westeros, then I guess Ned would have been obeying Jon throughout all season 1 on anything Jon said.  I wonder if Jon ever said something Ned did not obey.  And if that's the case, he would have been putting Catelyn in her place for shunning Jon and being like "listen woman, you need to get onboard with this bastard thing".  But that was never the case.

YES OR NO?

YES?  NO?

YES/NO?

Y/N?

No other answer will suffice.

Please don't call me "Missy." No need to start out a post belittling someone. 

I'm not sure what you're asking.

Do I feel like Jon made a better argument for keeping the pups? YES. Absolutely. I answered that in my last post. 

No, you don't have to be Royalty to change someone's mind. I never said that you did.

Not sure if your "obeying" sentence is a question, but I said, most of what Ned does, is in service of his promise to Lyanna. So you're twisting what I said into something else, since I never said that Ned "obeyed" Jon every time he opened his mouth, nor did I infer it. So NO. I didn't say that, so your inference about Catelyn being "put in her place" is all you.  NO. Ned doesn't "OBEY" everything that comes out of Jon's mouth. No idea why you would even go there.

There are only two scenes where Ned and Jon interact in the show. In the pup scene, and when Jon is leaving for the Wall, and Ned says the next time they meet, he'll tell Jon about his mother. That's all we know on the show.

I'm really confused what I did that set you off so much to the point you're trying to make it seem like I said something that I didn't say just to prove I'm wrong.

You hate the showrunners. You've made that clear. I don't. I guess that makes me the enemy. 

 

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10 hours ago, Kytheros said:

So ... are you arguing that if Robb or Bran had made the exact same argument that Jon did, Ned would've said no?

Great question. It's obviously hard to say for sure, since I'm not GRRM, but I think I do lean that way, yes. Maybe if Robb had said it, Ned would have thought about it more than when Bran just wanted a puppy... I can see him saying yes to it, but in a different way, yet not entirely... but going back to how Sean says what he says... I think he doesn't want to allow it, but does anyway, and for me, that comes with the weight on Ned of knowing Jon's true identity. 

10 hours ago, Kytheros said:

Are you arguing that all the other Northmen present know that Jon's actually Rhaegar and Lyanna's son? They were all in favor of mercy-killing the pups until Jon made his argument that the pups were a sign from the Old Gods.

Gods NO. The only people who know that are Sam & Bran. I'm saying they know about Rhaegar and Lyanna having a THING for each other because either they were AT the Tourney, or they've heard about it, because what Rhaegar did to Elia was HUGE, and likely a bit of a scandal. People talked about it.

I agree with the mercy killing sentence. 

10 hours ago, Kytheros said:

If the answer to either or both of these question is "No", then Ned changed his mind on what Jon said, not on who Jon is.

 

You don't make the rules on how anyone else thinks or forms opinions, and I think it's both. 

 

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1 hour ago, Hedera of the Helix said:

I agree with you. I figured out Jon's identity in the first book and this was one of the interactions that sealed it for me.  There is a marked change in Ned's attitude and he acts as if he is following an order, regardless of how compelling the argument was or wasn't. 

The scene alone viewed at face value, yes.  When viewed in light of Ned's POV chapters in the first book, no.

They are doing the best that they can. We just all wish it was better.

Thank you.

As for the showrunners, I work in the industry and GRRM wrote the unfilmable when he made the decision to tell the story from inside various character's heads, so the entire thing is based on Unreliable Narrator, because of their biases. I think they're working freaking miracles considering the original source, and now they're working off - outlines....  

While the first three books are miles better than the last two, they're still AMAZING novels, but the show can't do what the books did, and follow one set of characters through a single season, and a mostly different set the next.

The show has raised the filming bar very high, which is great for scripted TV - to the point TV is better at the moment than most things in cinemas. There's been a huge shift of film actors moving to TV, which didn't happen much 20+ years ago. 

Edited by ShadowKitteh

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1 hour ago, Hedera of the Helix said:

The scene alone viewed at face value, yes.  When viewed in light of Ned's POV chapters in the first book, no.

The show was trying to get some things right when D&D had a book source, but now that they're flying on their own they are making a right massive mess of things.  But they don't have all the details, either.

Fans of both are reading between the lines of the show, combining that with what they know from reading the novels, and trying to sync the trajectory that these two idiots are "following". 

I cant wait for the books, I do feel that the show quality has become dreadful now that the books have been outpaced BUT I think that GRRM's last two novels are going to be HUGE and condensing all that down to TV format requires greater skill than D&D are showing this last season. 

 They are doing the best that they can. We just all wish it was better.

 

1 hour ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Great question. It's obviously hard to say for sure, since I'm not GRRM, but I think I do lean that way, yes. Maybe if Robb had said it, Ned would have thought about it more than when Bran just wanted a puppy... I can see him saying yes to it, but in a different way, yet not entirely... but going back to how Sean says what he says... I think he doesn't want to allow it, but does anyway, and for me, that comes with the weight on Ned of knowing Jon's true identity.

Ned doesn't allow himself to think about Jon's true parentage. Why would something Ned literally doesn't think about be a decisive factor?

Ned's a straightforward sort of person. The Old Gods are not kind. A sign from the Old Gods, especially in the context of the mother being killed with an antler - is not cheerful news. It's not something to be happy about. It's a sign, an omen, but it's a troubling one. Ned knows direwolves are dangerous - and pairing them with his children is potentially dangerous for his children, but the alternative is killing the direwolves, ignoring their portentious nature.

The Old Gods are cold and harsh - I doubt that ignoring omens they send is the sort of thing that ends well in the lore of the First Men.

1 hour ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Gods NO. The only people who know that are Sam & Bran. I'm saying they know about Rhaegar and Lyanna having a THING for each other because either they were AT the Tourney, or they've heard about it, because what Rhaegar did to Elia was HUGE, and likely a bit of a scandal. People talked about it.

I agree with the mercy killing sentence.

What the hell does that have to do with the rest of the Northmen present when the direwolves are found - who all were in favor of mercy-killing the direwolf pups - changing their minds when Jon made his argument?

 

Either Jon's argument was good enough for the other Northmen present, and by extension Ned, on its own merits, no matter who made it, or Jon's argument was insufficient for them, but they changed their minds because they know about Jon's parents and are deferring to him on that basis.

One of these makes sense and is consistent with the scene and everything we know, it requires no assumptions, it is straightforward. The other requires assumptions and is inconsistent with the available information.

 

Edit: I agree - ASoIaF is incredibly difficult to adapt to TV/film well. Although, IMO, they did a pretty good job in the first season.

Edited by Kytheros

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16 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

Ned doesn't allow himself to think about Jon's true parentage. Why would something Ned literally doesn't think about be a decisive factor?

But Ned does think about it, per the first book, and his memory dream of the ToJ, he has that dream repeatedly. If he never thought about it, how could he keep the secret? 

16 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

The Old Gods are cold and harsh - I doubt that ignoring omens they send is the sort of thing that ends well in the lore of the First Men.

Totally agree.

16 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

What the hell does that have to do with the rest of the Northmen present when the direwolves are found - who all were in favor of mercy-killing the direwolf pups - changing their minds when Jon made his argument?

I'm not talking about the Northern Lords during the puppy scene (which they're not in), I'm talking about the actual Northern Lords, (Glover, Lyanna Mormont, Royce, etc.) now, in Winterfell, the ones who some people say will be upset if/when they find out Jon bent the knee to Dany. They're not in the puppy scene. Only Jorey and Roderick, neither of which are Northern Lords, are there besides Ned. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

As for why Ned changes his mind about the pups, I feel it's both the argument, and his knowledge of who Jon is. As Hedera of the Helix said:

2 hours ago, Hedera of the Helix said:

I agree with you. I figured out Jon's identity in the first book and this was one of the interactions that sealed it for me.  There is a marked change in Ned's attitude and he acts as if he is following an order, regardless of how compelling the argument was or wasn't. 

16 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

One of these makes sense and is consistent with the scene and everything we know, it requires no assumptions, it is straightforward. The other requires assumptions and is inconsistent with the available information.

 

Hedera also answered a similar question:

2 hours ago, Hedera of the Helix said:
Quote

The logical conclusion is that Ned changed his mind not because who Jon's parents are, but because of the argument that Jon made.

The scene alone viewed at face value, yes.  When viewed in light of Ned's POV chapters in the first book, no.

Edited by ShadowKitteh

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5 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

But Ned does think about it, per the first book, and his memory dream of the ToJ, he has that dream repeatedly. If he never thought about it, how could he keep the secret?

He's not thinking about Jon's parentage, and the position Jon's parentage nominally give Jon. Ned's dreaming about his lost sister. There is a difference.

Ned keeps the secret by not thinking about it - all he needs to do to keep the secret is not say or do anything to expose it, and that's best done by not thinking about it, far less deferring to Jon because of it.

7 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

I'm not talking about the Northern Lords during the puppy scene (which they're not in), I'm talking about the actual Northern Lords, (Glover, Lyanna Mormont, Royce, etc.) now, in Winterfell, the ones who some people say will be upset if/when they find out Jon bent the knee to Dany. They're not in the puppy scene. Only Jorey and Roderick, neither of which are Northern Lords, are there besides Ned. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

As for why Ned changes his mind about the pups, I feel it's both the argument, and his knowledge of who Jon is. As Hedera of the Helix said:

How did you get to talking about the current-time Northern Lords at Winterfell reaction to Jon bending the knee to Daenerys from discussing reactions to finding the direwolf pups?

Well, I was talking about the Stark men-at-arms (Northmen) accompanying Starks during the puppy scene. They were in favor of mercy-killing the pups before Jon made his argument, which changed all of their minds too.

My point is, it's not just Ned who gets his mind changed by Jon's argument - and Ned's the only one who would've known about Jon's parentage, so Jon's parentage cannot have been a factor in Jon's argument changing the minds of the other Northmen present. If Jon's true parentage isn't a factor for the other Northmen changing their minds, it can hardly have been particularly decisive factor, if it even mattered at all, for Ned's change of mind.

 

Sure, R+L=J, and finding out about it is likely going to play a role in the aftermath of Jon bending the knee.

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On 8/28/2017 at 1:03 AM, Iron Mother said:

 

 

Well, if Rhaegar did all of that just to make a baby to fight the white walkers then legitimacy would not be an issue.  The Night's King doesn't give a damn about legitimacy.  What Rhaegar did was driven by love and not some higher aspirations.  Now, I am not discounting that this crazy show would twist the story that way and set Rhaegar on some holy mission.  That's completely stupid and illogical plot, but I'm not saying they wouldn't do it.  I'm saying it doesn't make sense within the story for Rhaegar to marry Lyanna just to produce a baby to fight the white walkers.  And it doesn't make any sense outside of selfish lust for Lyanna for him to annul his marriage (and turn Princess Rhaenys and Prince Aegon into bastards) just to legitimize a future baby.  The writers on the show just overlooked the effect that an annulment would have on Rhaegar's children with Elia.  And it would be beyond belief (way beyond Arya's Run last  year!!) for Princess Elia to agree to this annulment.  That would make her the worst mother in the world to let Rhaenys and Aegon lose their legitimacy.  It pains me to say this but sometimes the writing on the show sucks.  The writing on the show is usually good until the writers FORCE an event to happen and then any resemblance to a coherent, logical story gets flushed down the jon like a loaf of human waste.

Edited by James Fenimore Cooper XXII

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6 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Please don't call me "Missy." No need to start out a post belittling someone.

Missy is an endearing term I say to my niece over having had too much sugar and going spastic (overreacting).  I do not come here to fight.  And I also shouldn't have to explain myself but I did.  I have never insulted or belittled you.  If you took a jest wrongly, then put me to ignore.

I dislike when people ASSume a motive when they know nothing about the intention behind it.  However, every interaction I have had with you has been kind and gentle.  I'm not asking for an apology.  Just maybe re-think the context of what you said and your reaction.

This is a frakking chat forum.  I won't walk on eggshells in the hope someone won't have some toxic reaction to a word.  Especially when I have never acted negatively toward you.  Your post to me was far more aggressive but I took it in stride based on the idea you have not a history toward me being vengeful or mean.  Why I cannot have the same courtesy is not even something I wish to explore currently.

If you choose to continue to battle, then I will put you to ignore instead.  It has been made clear these types of interaction are forbidden in this forum because they don't belong here.  I'm not a person to go around reporting others.  Just don't argue or choose to ignore me.

Thanks so much.

Edited by Iron Mother

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On 8/28/2017 at 4:50 PM, lakin1013 said:

Love can make fools of us, if we let it.  But what happened when they realized what they had done?  I do not care how cozy their sweet tower and totally cool honeymoon was, they had to know that they had ripped up their known world.  On the other hand, we are arguing something that has no answer.  We cannot know.  A book would be nice  :-)

 

I find it very hard to believe that Lyanna did not send any word to her father about her elopement with Rhaegar.  It doesn't make sense; she would have known that Lord Stark and Lord Baratheon would take Lyanna's leaving with Rhaegar as a huge insult and might believe that Rhaegar took her against her will.  I think Lyanna could have guessed how angry Brandon would be.  True, her having gone with Rhaegar of her own will would not have diminished the insult to Robert (it would have made things worse); but Lyanna's telling her father and brothers what was really going on might have put the Starks in a wait-and-see mode as far as any action taken against House Targaryen, especially if Lyanna reassured them as to her well-being.   I think Lyanna might have sent some kind of message, but it was either never delivered or stopped along the way.

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5 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

I find it very hard to believe that Lyanna did not send any word to her father about her elopement with Rhaegar.  It doesn't make sense; she would have known that Lord Stark and Lord Baratheon would take Lyanna's leaving with Rhaegar as a huge insult and might believe that Rhaegar took her against her will.  I think Lyanna could have guessed how angry Brandon would be.  True, her having gone with Rhaegar of her own will would not have diminished the insult to Robert (it would have made things worse); but Lyanna's telling her father and brothers what was really going on might have put the Starks in a wait-and-see mode as far as any action taken against House Targaryen, especially if Lyanna reassured them as to her well-being.   I think Lyanna might have sent some kind of message, but it was either never delivered or stopped along the way.

Why would Lyanna want to send a message to her family? She is eloping and trying to get married with Rhaegar. she needs to keep this as a secret and this is why they hid in a broken deserted tower in the red mountain. If she sent any format of message to her family, they would be able to track her location and take her back home and marry her off to Robert immediately. Lyanna absolutelt did not want this to happen. 

 

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Late so I'm sorry if this was discussed already (should probably read every post) but why would Rhaegar have to divorce? I'm assuming in show canon there were no such thing as sister wives. But I coulda sworn it was mentioned. 

Robert Could have have be angry all day and I get that. Even keeping  it secret . Could have worked since it's a huge slight against the Baratheons. (still dumb but whatever). 

But why divorce his wife, stripping her of her status as queen and jeopardizing his first sons right to be heir, to remarry... Especially when polygamy had been established as a thing in his family? 

Seemed unnecessary to add in the part about the annulment. Hell, did they even have that ability? Like, could a lord divorce his lady at any time? Seems unlikely. 

I get that these guys are pandering to us "stupid" watchers who may get confused, but this seemed like an unnecessary addition that just makes the story dumb. Then to say the rebellion was based on a lie like Ned and Robert wasn't about to be murdered and it was Arryn who first raised his banners? 

Edited by MrJay

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2 hours ago, MrJay said:

Late so I'm sorry if this was discussed already (should probably read every post) but why would Rhaegar have to divorce? I'm assuming in show canon there were no such thing as sister wives. But I coulda sworn it was mentioned. 

Robert Could have have be angry all day and I get that. Even keeping  it secret . Could have worked since it's a huge slight against the Baratheons. (still dumb but whatever). 

But why divorce his wife, stripping her of her status as queen and jeopardizing his first sons right to be heir, to remarry... Especially when polygamy had been established as a thing in his family? 

Seemed unnecessary to add in the part about the annulment. Hell, did they even have that ability? Like, could a lord divorce his lady at any time? Seems unlikely. 

I get that these guys are pandering to us "stupid" watchers who may get confused, but this seemed like an unnecessary addition that just makes the story dumb. Then to say the rebellion was based on a lie like Ned and Robert wasn't about to be murdered and it was Arryn who first raised his banners? 

I think the show wanted to establish that Jon is the uncontested Targaryen heir to the IT. Even if a silver haired boy or girl claiming to be aegon/rhaenys shows up, Jon is still the heir.

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