falcotron Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 6 hours ago, U-238A said: This is how I envision it occuring: Jon, after learning that he is 'rightful king' of the '7 kingdoms' will himself decline, give a big speech about how all of this fighting and politics was pointless and dissolve royalty/feudalism himself. And then what happens? Assuming he actually can dissolve feudalism (and I'm not sure how he would—what happens if his lords just say "No thanks, I'll keep my fief as it is"?), the result is 40 million people with no government, no justice system, nobody to organize the food transportation that's almost certainly needed to keep everyone from starving this winter, no armies to defeat anyone who wants to declare himself a local warlord or to keep bandits off the roads, no one collecting taxes to maintain things like the docks or the KL sewers, all the property still in the hands of the people who were lords yesterday, and of course no defense against the first foreign conqueror who sees an opportunity. I don't think enlightened anarchism is impossible, but developing anarchist social structures in a feudal society overnight definitely is. So Jon ends up responsible for more deaths than the Night King. Nice job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sauce-cei Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 I think that Dany and Jon will definitely have a child, BUT that King's Landing and the Red Keep will be ashes so there will be no more King and Queen as we have known since the series started. So the iron throne she's fought for and wanted for so long will be gone after she's helped to deal with the Others/ White Walkers. We saw her vision at the House of the Undying back in Season 3 (I think) where there was snow in the throne room in King's Landing and that the roof had clearly been blown up. Therefore, I am sure that King's Landing will be ashes after Cersei blows up the Red Keep (possibly when Euron Greyjoy turns on her and uses the Golden Company to enter the city and then turn on her and make a grab for the throne). Jaime will kill the night King with his Valaryian steel sword (I hope) but then teleport south and successfully strangle her with his golden hand but it will be too late and he will die with her - having cemented his name as a hero in Westerosi history, and a few more pages in Joffrey's King's Guard book. He's clearly on a redemption arc now he's FINALLY riding North. ('Am sure Bronn will follow, purely because he's not allowed on screen at the same time as Cersei). Or maybe it will turn out that he's already there and that he left with Podrick after hearing how many castles are empty in the North now over a few beers. The Mountain will be killed by Sandor, who manages to overcome his fear of fire. I suspect that this may not be in the south but rather Qyburn will head north to learn more about how the Wights work. He was so interested that it was clear that he will take the Mountain and be the next one to walk away from Cersei. Next, she will lose her baby and after that once Euyron turns on her (most stupid alliance ever) she will blow up the Red Keep. Which will be good because IF the Dothraki want to sail back to their own lands once things are all sorted out they will have the iron fleet to do so. Dany and Jon will marry but lose interest in ruling, Tyrion will reside over an early type of parliament with rulers who are chosen rather than ones who rule due to their birthright with ministers from various houses having a say in matters of the realm. Included would be Sansa, who I THINK may become the ruler of the Vale or she will just stay at Winterfell (?), Davos, and anyone else whose plot armour is strong enough to survive until spring. We will undoubtedly have the fight against the Others first and taking up the first 3 episodes of the final season and then the working out what the frig will happen next and tying up various back stories and completing blindingly obvious character arcs. It's going to be boring and tedious; skeletons screeching and dragons breathing fire at them. Beric was right; kill the "Night King" and his army will all die. It's going to be one of those boring fight/ battle episodes where we think that Dany, Jon and co are losing then someone saves them at the last minute when it looks as if all is lost. Maybe that will be Bran warging one of the dead giants and having it crunch the Night King, or Drogon killing Viserion and himself in the process, I actually wonder IF all the dragons will die because they helped increase magic in Westeros; but I think not because there were shadows of them flying over King's Landing in that vision. Some major character will die, then they will be resurrected by Melissandre. (Dany?). Melisandre will then be killed by Arya because reasons. Talking of which Varys will die too. (Because foreshadowing). I suspect that living at the end will be Jon and Dany, Sansa, Tyrion and possibly Arya. Oh and Sam - who writes a history of Westeros with the help of Bran. Bittersweet doesn't mean tragic and there being just ashes to rule over rather than the oft-mentioned Iron Throne is going to be bittersweet. They have "won" but at what cost? They have all lost so much in a fight for a stupid metal chair. Sure they have saved the world from the white walkers but it was Jon and Dany who helped the white walkers get a dragon and come through the wall. Maybe they'll decide they're not fit to rule, or that they don't want to and will go of to live and raise their child somewhere nice and peaceful. Narth sounds nice. But Highgarden is empty. We KNOW that D&D will really simplify everything and race through those final episodes they have left with more of the same from this year - silly twists like the LittleFinger trial, then Dracarys, Dracarys, win a fight, lose a fight and level out the playing field, win another fight, then lose and be saved at the ninth hour... arguments which look like they will be explosive and or fatal but then resolve super quickly, Night King, Night King, Screaming Skeletons, Screaming Skeletons, Cersei holding on until the very final episode (probably), before dying and then when it screeches to an end we will all come away feeling unsatisfied - it's a real shame we don't have the books to refer to yet. Bittersweet is not ever truly knowing how it will end until we get the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 There are theories that by the end of Song, Jon or Dany, or even both of them will be dead. But how about this possibility: both alive, married, with a baby. Though Jon won't rule Seven Kingdoms, he will go back to The Wall. Because now they know that the threat is real, and that Undead army and White Walkers may return again. Even if they will defeat current Night's King, doesn't mean that the threat will be eliminated forever. So Jon will again become Lord Commander. He will rebuild all 19 castles on The Wall, and recruit thouthands people, from all over Westeros, to join Night's Watch. Jon will rule over his own little kingdom - The King of The Wall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 I think it unlikely that they will both survive the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
U-238A Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 7 hours ago, falcotron said: And then what happens? Assuming he actually can dissolve feudalism (and I'm not sure how he would—what happens if his lords just say "No thanks, I'll keep my fief as it is"?), the result is 40 million people with no government, no justice system, nobody to organize the food transportation that's almost certainly needed to keep everyone from starving this winter, no armies to defeat anyone who wants to declare himself a local warlord or to keep bandits off the roads, no one collecting taxes to maintain things like the docks or the KL sewers, all the property still in the hands of the people who were lords yesterday, and of course no defense against the first foreign conqueror who sees an opportunity. I don't think enlightened anarchism is impossible, but developing anarchist social structures in a feudal society overnight definitely is. So Jon ends up responsible for more deaths than the Night King. Nice job! I did not mention anarchy at any point. What the 7 kingdoms have now is closer to anarchy than what I'm suggesting. Dissolving feudalism doesn't mean no form of governance, security or structure. Knock one framework down and replace it with another... perhaps a democracy or republic like something, oh you know, the French did? How do the free cities operate if that's what happens when you have no lords and great houses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
U-238A Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 8 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said: That will not happen. George wrote the novels based on historical events. And the dissolving of monarchy into democracy - or constitutional monarchy took centuries. The Enlightenment period needed to occur for thinkers and philosophers to realise that they needed to choose their own rulers, and that that was what was best for the nation. In Westeros, there is no such movement; there are no peasant revolts against the monarchy, none that are based on democratic ideals. There needs to be a foundation for democracy to occur. The best case scenario is Westeros is one where the nation is unified under one rule again - A Targaryen rule. And through that rule, changes will occur to the political system that will favor the lower classes more. And once generations pass, and there is a pseudo-Enlightenment period, people will then go for a more democratic system. I think Daenerys will set the stage, this democratic foundation, for future generation. Democracy in Westeros will take centuries. They cannot just force this into the nation and expect there to be no political chaos. Sure, you can introduce a system where people elect the rulers. But you don't actually think the peasants would get a proper voice? Lords with money will bride the lower classes, and there would be corruption. - Research the Roman Republic. I've done some uni course on the period. Those who gained power were always from the elite class, the high-born with deep pockets. They bribed the people with festivals and food hand-outs. The same would occur here. Don't expect there to be a democracy in Westeros akin to the democracy we have around the world right now. it took over two thousand years for democratic ideals to become the democracy we know today. So, you can't expect Daenerys Targaryen to introduce democracy into Westeros within a few years of taking power. Jesus, that would be so unrealistic that the show would be criticized hard for such an implausibility. Good counter points. Sure it might not happen overnight or exactly how I envision, but the premise is there for a more democratic way of life to follow this turbulent, violent one. Jon not wanting to rule is the biggest key to this in my opinion. If he does not rule, I cannot see anyone else doing it. Dany? No, she's stated she was born to rule it too many times for it to end all rainbows and butterflies for this world. The point you make about George basing it on real life reaffirms my opinion. Democracy, and if not, at the very least, no absolute monarch will follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormourne Posted August 30, 2017 Author Share Posted August 30, 2017 16 minutes ago, U-238A said: Good counter points. Sure it might not happen overnight or exactly how I envision, but the premise is there for a more democratic way of life to follow this turbulent, violent one. Jon not wanting to rule is the biggest key to this in my opinion. If he does not rule, I cannot see anyone else doing it. Dany? No, she's stated she was born to rule it too many times for it to end all rainbows and butterflies for this world. The point you make about George basing it on real life reaffirms my opinion. Democracy, and if not, at the very least, no absolute monarch will follow. I agree, I just think it will take time. And with six episodes left, the only logical outcome is for them (Daenerys/Jon) to lay the foundation for a better, more democratic future. This could be the bittersweet ending. Bitter in that the war against the Night King devested the North and her people, and sweet in that there is hope for the future. Jon and Daenerys do not need to die for a bittersweet ending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deminelle Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 I'd like to think that they both survive in the end. Maybe for the story they get separated during the fight against NK, and reunited in the last episode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NexivRed Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 11 hours ago, GhostNymeria said: Based on what exactly? It making a lot of sense and is good story telling. I personally think it's a possibility and would work well. Two young men l; friends, standing in for their fathers and uniting the realm. Sansa going through hell and on a journey of discovery, only to end up where she was going to from the very first episode. I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostNymeria Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 32 minutes ago, NexivRed said: It making a lot of sense and is good story telling. I personally think it's a possibility and would work well. Two young men l; friends, standing in for their fathers and uniting the realm. Sansa going through hell and on a journey of discovery, only to end up where she was going to from the very first episode. I like it. I was reffering to build up and foreshadowing. This seems more like shipping based on that you would like those two characters togheter. The have no build up and have nothing to do with each other. Also, Sansa is the embodiment of everything book Gendry hates about highborns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plastic throne Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 I really don't thnk bittersweet ending you all keep talking about is about which hero dies. Bittersweet can be ASOIAF ending with Jon and Danny's baby, a heir to the throne, strangling a cat and thus foreshadowing another Joffrey in the making And there we go, history repeats itself, breaking the wheel is impossible task, it is an illusion. The wheel was there before Aegon and it will be after him as well. People are people, you can't change our nature. That's what all those symbols from COTF are. Its a spiral, a circle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcotron Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 7 hours ago, U-238A said: I did not mention anarchy at any point. What the 7 kingdoms have now is closer to anarchy than what I'm suggesting. Dissolving feudalism doesn't mean no form of governance, security or structure. Knock one framework down and replace it with another... perhaps a democracy or republic like something, oh you know, the French did? Because that's not at all what the French did. The French gradually replaced feudalism with a centralized monarchy, and then, centuries later, overthrew that for a republic. They didn't just make the change overnight. Also, the French Republic had a lot to go on—enlightenment philosophers, notions of human rights and rule of law, a professional justice system, ancient proto-republics like Rome and Athens to inspire them, a strong middle class, an early-modern economy based on trade in finished goods rather than local agriculture, … Westeros has none of that. You can't just create democracy overnight, especially without even knowing what democracy is. What you can do is set up the foundation for a better system of government in the long term. But—as Tyrion directly says in the show, so we know D&D understand this, and presumably GRRM as well—that will take a long time, probably more than a single lifetime. And meanwhile, you can make a lot of smaller reforms that make life better for the smallfolk during that long transition. (We had a whole thread either last week or the week before of people coming up with realistic ways to do this for Westeros, if you're interested.) 7 hours ago, U-238A said: How do the free cities operate if that's what happens when you have no lords and great houses? Well, first, except maybe for Volantis, the Free Cities are all tightly-concentrated, heavily-urbanized city-states, so they can't be run the same way as a sprawling empire like Westeros. If you tried to run medieval France the same way as the Venetian Republic, it would collapse in a few weeks. Second, most of them are run by some kind of oligarchy. Which is probably even better than Westeros if you're a member of one of the ruling families, and maybe even if you're one of the richer freeborn commoners, but not so good for the slaves that make up, say, 75% of Myr's population. Third, getting from their old system to their current ones was not a pleasant overnight transition. Have you heard of the Century of Blood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Jon Snow Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 5 hours ago, GhostNymeria said: I was reffering to build up and foreshadowing. This seems more like shipping based on that you would like those two characters togheter. The have no build up and have nothing to do with each other. Also, Sansa is the embodiment of everything book Gendry hates about highborns. Very true. If it was someone like Edric Storm from the books, I could see it. But putting Gendry and Sansa together just feels wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragon & The Wolf Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 I dont see why it has to be a problem they could easily co-rule like the historical William & Mary. Jon & Dany together would be unstoppable. The only ones who wouldn't want them together would be their enemies like Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Jon Snow Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 1 hour ago, The Dragon & The Wolf said: I dont see why it has to be a problem they could easily co-rule like the historical William & Mary. Jon & Dany together would be unstoppable. The only ones who wouldn't want them together would be their enemies like Cersei. It does feel too tidy but one of the things Martin has said he knows about the ending is 'who marries who'. To me, that suggests that there is at least one major marriage near the ending of the story and given s7 and the House of Undying, there are good odds to it being Jon and Dany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombies That Were Promised Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 I don't care how cliche it is, I want Jon and Dany to be King and Queen. Jon, of course, would have no natural interest in the Iron Throne but he'll get stuck on it when he's loovestruck for Dany and follow her up to the Red Keep like a little puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortspear Rick Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 It makes sense for them to get married. It's not only a believable happy ending but as things have been going it's the logical conclusion. For one thing, it sure as hell would make it more palpable for all the Northern Lords who swore their allegiance to the King in the North if the kingdoms were united by marriage instead of knee bending. But that would be too easy for D&D. If you watched the post-show stuff they talked about the tension and conflict the revelation brings. They're going to do Dance of the Dragons 2.0. Even if Martin goes that route, with the story choices they've made as they've outpaced the books it just doesn't make any sense. I can only assume that they wind up having a child (probably born on the boat before White Harbor because D&D don't understand how time works), both of them die from fighting and the heir is the King that leads Westeros to recovery following the Great War, the Prince who was Promised, or at least the regent they put in charge will (Tyrion?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostNymeria Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 6 hours ago, Commander Jon Snow said: Very true. If it was someone like Edric Storm from the books, I could see it. But putting Gendry and Sansa together just feels wrong Indeed. Sansa has no connection with Gendry whatsoever and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NexivRed Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 13 hours ago, GhostNymeria said: I was reffering to build up and foreshadowing. This seems more like shipping based on that you would like those two characters togheter. The have no build up and have nothing to do with each other. Also, Sansa is the embodiment of everything book Gendry hates about highborns. 1 hour ago, GhostNymeria said: Indeed. Sansa has no connection with Gendry whatsoever and vice versa. Neither did any of the characters until they met one another... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnimus Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 On 8/29/2017 at 11:53 AM, Iron Mother said: But one of them must die. That's just the way it is Why? I mean this is just assumed by so many fans, and I have no idea why. Is it possible one dies? Of course. Is it likely? I don't think so. If one does die, I think it's more likely to be Jon than Dany, for the record. But I don't see why either *must* die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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