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S. OF HOUSE STARK

Let's talk about Jaime...

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16 hours ago, S. OF HOUSE STARK said:

I absolutely love that the show has made a return to Jaime's oathbreaker versus oathkeeper motif. He is one of the show's most interesting, tortured and formidable characters and I'm glad to see him finally back at his best. 

He's keeping word and his honour and is riding north - presumably to Winterfell. What will this mean for his character? Bran will be there, not to mention the northern lords who will want him dead on arrival. His presence in WF is going to create so much tension between characters - how do you think it's going to pan out? What complications / alliances do you think will arise out of this? 

Jamie is carrying widow's wail so the two halves of Ice have returned to Winterfell.

The truce holds as far as Jamie is concerned.

5 hours ago, jandslegate said:

I think without Jaime in KL that Bron is actually in very real danger and I think he'll figure that out, as well. 

Bron has said he will stick to Jamie till he gets his money. So he is following.

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but Jaime being the third head of the dragon would need him to be a Targ. Because we don't have a third dragon that a non trag could ride.

I don't think the show has revealed that prophecy.

Sansa and Arya missed a trick by executing LF in public. Cersei will know he is dead so Arya can hardly use his face.

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As tense as it will be, Bran (or the 3-eyed Raven) will forgive and forget. It'll be a case of "you had to push me for all this to happen. This is the way it had to happen" etc. Being the true lord of Winterfell, the Northern lords will have to oblige him - even though Jon is the "King". They'll see that he is a willing, and valuable asset for the fight to come and spare him.

Edited by U-238A

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18 hours ago, S. OF HOUSE STARK said:

I absolutely love that the show has made a return to Jaime's oathbreaker versus oathkeeper motif. He is one of the show's most interesting, tortured and formidable characters and I'm glad to see him finally back at his best. 

He's keeping word and his honour and is riding north - presumably to Winterfell. What will this mean for his character? Bran will be there, not to mention the northern lords who will want him dead on arrival. His presence in WF is going to create so much tension between characters - how do you think it's going to pan out? What complications / alliances do you think will arise out of this? 

Hopefully, his interaction will be limited to Brienne and Tyrion. He has good dynamics with both of them, but I don't see much reason for him to interact with the others. I guess meeting Dany will be interesting, since he killed her father, but she also knows her father was dangerously insane. I don't think he and Bran will have much to say.

I just can't get hype for the character. I've always seen Jaime as more weak than conflicted. Cersei has dominated him to the point where he's as broken as Theon. Brienne awakens his sense of honor and decency, as does Tyrion to some extent. But he can't sustain it when he's around Cersei. Ultimately, Jaime's behavior is tailored to seeking the approval of whichever strong personality he's around at the time. He is a tragic character, but I find him more pathetic than anything else.

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2 hours ago, falcotron said:

As I'd hoped, they finally seem to have gotten show!Jaime's story back on track with book!Jaime's story. You just have to retcon S5-7 as being a single rough night for Jaime in the Riverlands where he struggled with his demons and imagined what it would be like if he returned to Cersei, rather than three years of his life where he really did it, and his arc makes sense again…

Hey that makes absolute sense! Well he finally grew a pair, all his life he's been doing what cersei wanted.

Which brings me to the supposed pregnancy, (maybe it's been talked about before, in which case I'm sorry but....) From the beginning of time women have used pregnancies, true or false to control men, who is it to say that it isn't what Cerseis doing? I wouldn't put it past her not to lie about a pregnancy, and if we go to the book timeline it sure as heck wouldn't be Jaime's. Unless I'm off on the dates there.....

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29 minutes ago, Lorathi said:

 

I just can't get hype for the character. I've always seen Jaime as more weak than conflicted. Cersei has dominated him to the point where he's as broken as Theon. Brienne awakens his sense of honor and decency, as does Tyrion to some extent. But he can't sustain it when he's around Cersei. Ultimately, Jaime's behavior is tailored to seeking the approval of whichever strong personality he's around at the time. He is a tragic character, but I find him more pathetic than anything else.

Have you read the books? There is a world of a difference between book Jaime and show Jaime. (And I agree with your finding him more pathetic then anything else, but that's what the show writers have done, they took a quite noble character (or at least he turned noble) and made him this almost theon/reek person! 

Groan... Why do I do this to myself should have never watched the shows! 

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4 hours ago, Lorathi said:

Hopefully, his interaction will be limited to Brienne and Tyrion. He has good dynamics with both of them, but I don't see much reason for him to interact with the others. I guess meeting Dany will be interesting, since he killed her father, but she also knows her father was dangerously insane. I don't think he and Bran will have much to say.

I just can't get hype for the character. I've always seen Jaime as more weak than conflicted. Cersei has dominated him to the point where he's as broken as Theon. Brienne awakens his sense of honor and decency, as does Tyrion to some extent. But he can't sustain it when he's around Cersei. Ultimately, Jaime's behavior is tailored to seeking the approval of whichever strong personality he's around at the time. He is a tragic character, but I find him more pathetic than anything else.

I think that's what he finally realized at the end of this season.  He finally saw that his opinion didn't matter to Cersei and that he had been her lapdog all this time so he bounced.  It's the most significant thing he has shown since losing his hand

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Well, it's more than interesting to see what happened to Jaime, complete change of character, embodiment of an oathkeeper, and a pragmatist, not to mention that he grew tired and understood that he was on the Crazy-wagon all those years. Not a Saint, but changed a lot!

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10 hours ago, Error-504 said:

Depends on your interpretation of what Three heads means. clearly it is not three dragon riders. I believe it to mean three forces, aka, Dany and her forces, Jn and the north, and Jamie and his as well. 

Jaime and his? I was wondering about this, is Jaime headed north alone or is he bringing some soldiers loyal to him? The show left it sort of open ended.

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56 minutes ago, Super Mario said:

Jaime and his? I was wondering about this, is Jaime headed north alone or is he bringing some soldiers loyal to him? The show left it sort of open ended.

this makes me think about who the Lannister army is loyal to. if Jaime stepped down as KG and has taken up his Lannister position and has been controlling the Lannister armies, do they go with him, will they follow him? who is cersei to these soldiers except for a queen whose claim is shakey at best, who is a Lannister but not a Lannister heir, not someone who has fought by their side, risked his life with them, been their leader in battle.

realistically I would imagine that the Lannister army and westerlands goes with Jaime.

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9 hours ago, Lorathi said:

Hopefully, his interaction will be limited to Brienne and Tyrion. He has good dynamics with both of them, but I don't see much reason for him to interact with the others. I guess meeting Dany will be interesting, since he killed her father, but she also knows her father was dangerously insane. I don't think he and Bran will have much to say.

I just can't get hype for the character. I've always seen Jaime as more weak than conflicted. Cersei has dominated him to the point where he's as broken as Theon. Brienne awakens his sense of honor and decency, as does Tyrion to some extent. But he can't sustain it when he's around Cersei. Ultimately, Jaime's behavior is tailored to seeking the approval of whichever strong personality he's around at the time. He is a tragic character, but I find him more pathetic than anything else.

Jaime pathetic? Wow. You can't be talking about the book character because Book Jaime is just a complete badass. Fighting wise (pre hand loss) he's one of the best in history and has a scathing wit which makes him one of the most interesting characters to read personally. I don't see how a guy who threw away his honour and willingly vilified himself for the rest of his life in order to ensure half a million people don't lose their lives can be considered as weak or pathetic. He quits dealing with Cersei's BS far earlier in the book too and is far more concerned with reflecting on who he is and trying to rebuild his honour. He's a damn good Lord Commander of the Kingsguard too and does his best to work with what he has. 

I'll admit Show Jaime is a weaker character and I don't fully understand why the show writers went in that direction but he still can't be considered weak or pathetic in my opinion - his love for Cersei just seems to be a much bigger part of his character than in the books. 

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I think Jaime finally is going to fulfill his knightly side without restriction when he joins the Starkgaryens, at least for now. Everyone is full on the Second Long Night unlike Cersei so that will be a huge relief for his character to not have to worry about politics or pleasing Cersei.

 

I think Winterfell will at first mobilize against him even when he announces he came to help them, and it will be Bran the one to protect him, coming full circle and rewarding Jaime for his change of heart.

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2 hours ago, Robert Baratheon's hammer said:

It would have been nice if Danny mentioned Jamie killing her father. I'm sure they'll save that for next season.

I agree and I think (hope) they use Bran to set the record straight.

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On 28/8/2017 at 2:40 PM, The BlackBear said:

I'm kind of interested in it from the perspective of who takes control of the Lannister armies. With Jaime gone North, the only named character I can think of to do it is Bronn. In the setting he's too low ranking, but in terms of storytelling there's no one else left. And we very noticeably didn't see where he was at the end.

 

Since I'm pretty certain Tormund isn't dead, I'm looking forward to the Jaime/Brienne/Tormund triangle.

Euron will take command of the Crown armies.

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3 hours ago, SerMudz said:

I'll admit Show Jaime is a weaker character and I don't fully understand why the show writers went in that direction but he still can't be considered weak or pathetic in my opinion - his love for Cersei just seems to be a much bigger part of his character than in the books. 

I agree. People can do really stupid things just out of loyalty to the person they love. A twisted version of accepting your partner's flaws. And in the books, it's Cersei's cheating on him that leads Jaime to break with her. Cersei has only slept with Lancel in the show, and I'm not sure if Jaime knows. Since the show doesn't have Cersei sleep with multiple people, it is understandable that Jaime finds it hard to leave behind the mother of his children.

Having said that, I really wish the show would've brought about the break up sooner.

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On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 8:50 AM, House Rootbreaker said:

I'm just curious how Jamie is going to convince everyone in Winterfell he's not still working with Cersei? Everything he says about leaving her and wanting to join them is going to sound too good to be true. He can't have Tyrion vouch for him as everyone will see that as suspect and the paranoia of the Lannisters plotting will be too high.  

Maybe it a weird twist of fate Bran will vouch for Jamie since his vote of confidence is the only one that could convince everyone else.  It goes along with Bran's character as him holding a grudge against Jamie doesn't seem very realistic.  And maybe it would give Jamie that final piece of humility where he realizes a boy he crippled can trust his word.

Once Bronn realizes Jamie is gone he is grabbing his gold and taking off somewhere.  He's scared of Cersei

I think that might actually be easier said then done. Why would they not trust or even take into consideration one of the top 2 Lannisters coming to them and saying "Cersei was lying, she has no intention of coming to help you and in fact is getting ready to take control of the Southern part of Westeros and then fight you when you are depleted." If they don't take him on his word that means they will think that Cersei is actually coming to help. So why wouldn't they believe him when he is trying to warn them that Cersei is going to betray them?

I do think it is going to be your second paragraph because of my thoughts on the first. Bran will vouch for him and if the boy that was crippled by Jamie vouches for Jamie (and because they used his knowledge as evidence in the Littlefinger trial) that should be enough for most of the major players that are left.

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19 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

 

Having said that, I really wish the show would've brought about the break up sooner.

TV Jaime should've left after Cersei did her Aerys act and caused Tommen's suicide . It was the perfect time for this version of him to do so, but instead they showed him as Cersei's lapdog for no good reason I can discern except maybe make a feminist statement by showing it's Cersei who's the true bad-ass here?

I don't necessarily have a problem with that but I wish they hadn't diminished Jaime (and Tyrion) in order to do so.

If I hadn't red the books, I'd find J weak and pathetic too.

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2 minutes ago, LokisRaider said:

I think that might actually be easier said then done. Why would they not trust or even take into consideration one of the top 2 Lannisters coming to them and saying "Cersei was lying, she has no intention of coming to help you and in fact is getting ready to take control of the Southern part of Westeros and then fight you when you are depleted." If they don't take him on his word that means they will think that Cersei is actually coming to help. So why wouldn't they believe him when he is trying to warn them that Cersei is going to betray them?

I do think it is going to be your second paragraph because of my thoughts on the first. Bran will vouch for him and if the boy that was crippled by Jamie vouches for Jamie (and because they used his knowledge as evidence in the Littlefinger trial) that should be enough for most of the major players that are left.

It is also possible that Jaime takes some of the Lannister army north with him as he cannot do much by himself. I know his last scene showed him riding away on his own, but his pledge involved bringing his forces to fight against the NK. If he has men with him, the northern party might find it easier to believe him.

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3 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

It is also possible that Jaime takes some of the Lannister army north with him as he cannot do much by himself. I know his last scene showed him riding away on his own, but his pledge involved bringing his forces to fight against the NK. If he has men with him, the northern party might find it easier to believe him.

I would like that to be true. And honestly the show has proven the do things that do not make sense in the grand scheme of things just to make it work for the scene. But I just do not see Cersei actually letting him leave with any amount of forces. It would be great and I hope you are right mostly because it will help focus next season to be the fight is in the North where it should be.

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11 minutes ago, Knight of Ashes said:

TV Jaime should've left after Cersei did her Aerys act and caused Tommen's suicide . It was the perfect time for this version of him to do so, but instead they showed him as Cersei's lapdog for no good reason I can discern except maybe make a feminist statement by showing it's Cersei who's the true bad-ass here?

I don't necessarily have a problem with that but I wish they hadn't diminished Jaime (and Tyrion) in order to do so.

If I hadn't red the books, I'd find J weak and pathetic too.

I think the show was trying to highlight his internal conflict of loyalty to his family and his partner of many decades and doing the right thing. He is called the kingslayer and I think Jaime was trying not to break his vow again. Which is why I guess Brienne saying fuck loyalty was important. And the show does have a penchant for highlighting unconventional relationships, like Grey worm and Missandei. Or maybe there is a twist that the showrunners wanted to reserve for the last season.

Either ways, I think it was a bad decision.

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