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Let's talk about Jaime...

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6 minutes ago, LokisRaider said:

I would like that to be true. And honestly the show has proven the do things that do not make sense in the grand scheme of things just to make it work for the scene. But I just do not see Cersei actually letting him leave with any amount of forces. It would be great and I hope you are right mostly because it will help focus next season to be the fight is in the North where it should be.

My hope is that some of the houses pledged to Cersei would choose to fight the NK as opposed to being on Cersei side, and defect when Jaime calls them to go north.

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16 hours ago, falcotron said:

As I'd hoped, they finally seem to have gotten show!Jaime's story back on track with book!Jaime's story. You just have to retcon S5-7 as being a single rough night for Jaime in the Riverlands where he struggled with his demons and imagined what it would be like if he returned to Cersei, rather than three years of his life where he really did it, and his arc makes sense again…

Yeah I'm pretending seasons 5-(most of)7 Jaime don't exist. And also that time he assaulted Cersei 0_o

 

It's the only way I can still see him as book Jaime

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5 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

My hope is that some of the houses pledged to Cersei would choose to fight the NK as opposed to being on Cersei side, and defect when Jaime calls them to go north.

That'd be interesting. I think this would have been a great reason to keep Tarly alive. If he was never captured and attended the Dragon Pit meeting he is a character that has already been established and known to be honorable. He finds out why Jamie left KL and he rides North with his army and they meet up because it was the right thing to do. Or something along those lines.

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I know I have commented before on this topic but that was just re Bronn.

Okay, like most of you, I could have hit Jaime with something hard in the head since episode one in this series.  I personally thought that Cersei's actions leading to Tommen's suicide would have suffice but nope! Still, I do see him as the victim of a very unhealthy and abusive relationship and not just because of the incest.  I have been there and it is terribly hard to break from that.  The victim oftentimes fears loosing their partner (abuser as he/she may be) more than almost anything else.  It does take time and sometimes a major thing happening.  Yes, in the books Tyrion clearly messes around with Jaime's state of mind by revealing her infidelities.  Still... even if Jaime wasn't close to the kids, one would have thought that infidelities are more forgivable that setting fire to the city you killed your King to protect and causing the death (albeit arguably indirectly) of the only child you both have left!  He looked awfully unhappy in that scene but still, he did nothing.  Granted, I expected and would have loved it if he had broken up with her there and then.  On the other hand, I think the way the show did it (although I don't like it) shows just how much power she has always had over him, which is probably in fact more realistic psychologically.  I am pretty sure we will not get an answer to this but I would love to see how the whole thing (incest) started.  In our world men tend to get vilified, especially when it is underage sex or whatever, however physiologically women mature sooner and I am convinced that it was her who wanted to explore her sexuality or ensure his undying allegiance and initiated it, but hey could be wrong.

Now, yes, he has decided that nothing matters but the war against the dead.  She is still plotting, and despite seeing what she saw, very oblivious to the real danger and he is having no more of it!

I am sure he realises how precarious his position with team Starkgaryen is, despite Tyrion... but still he is choosing this over the alternative!  I thought Brienne, although it was a very brief encounter, was the one to really bring the idea home.  For the first time ever she something like "fuck honour."  Honour is what she taught him...  I think that also got him thinking.

Now, for purely plot purposes, he cannot just get to WF and be killed by any of the people there... His arc is one of redemption and my money is on him dying like a real hero.  

However, if I were him I would be worried lol  Bran, for one thing.... There seems to be consensus in this thread to the fact that Bran will take little notice of what he did to him... still Jaime doesn't know that!  Okay, digressing maybe but I took what Tyrion did in meeting Cersei as brave but I think this just tops it all! (Jaime arriving at Winterfell, say...).  It is safe to say that he is likely to suspect Tyrion will vouch for him but I think it will have to be Bran in the end.  Tyrion is family, despite all that has happened.  Tyrion is also likely to get a nasty reception, save for Jon and maybe even Sansa...but they are all under the auspices of the Dragon Queen...

Now, not so long ago, she was ranting and raving about usurpers and what not.  There has been a lot of speculation as to whether Tyrion will betray her.  Personally, I can only see this happening if she kills Jaime or does something really harsh (a la Tarly execution).  He may have made a pact with Cersei to put her unborn on the throne one day but that would not be a total betrayal; just a plan B (if Cersei is neutralised and she will be lol).

I believe Tyrion has taken Dany at face value re infertility.  Very skeptical here.  I do believe that she will conceive but neither Dany, nor Tyrion know that...

Jaime is endangearing himself for sure but what is the alternative???

As for the Lannister forces, I think he just stormed out and rode on his own.  However, I am sure some of the soldiers saw what was demonstrated on the dragon pit.  They follow a commander, sure, and I am sure, Jaime, for all his faults, treats his men well.  Cersei is volatile, erratic.  Word will go around re the undead thingy... and of their Commander's desertion to Cersei.  I feel some will join him without having to be commanded to do so.  Some will not of course but I guess many will.

Now, this could pose a problem for Jaime.  If he arrives at WF and someone/s vouch for him (possibly Bronn as well...) if he arrives with an army chances are (say, in Dany's eyes, that he is no friend but foe)...  I think he needs to arrive alone to have a chance then yes, bring them on lol!

My two cents, he will be put on the spot, possibly on trial.  At that stage I think Brienne and Pod will vouch for him.  Tyrion will either get very talkative defending his bro or say nothing (knowing this will not aid and possibly harm).  Dany will be very impassive until all is said and he will be spared for various reasons; they could do with his knowledge of the Lannister army etc, he is showing he is prepared to fight to the death, but yeah mainly Bran...

Cannot wait to see what truly happens but 2 years!!! lol

 

 

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I'm now thinking Jaime's information will be useless because Bran should already know the truth, or maybe Bran just confirms what Jaime tells them about Cersei's plan and Euron.  I think the thing that will get the Starks to forgive Jaime will be in part because of Brienne, and also because Jaime will stop and free Edmure and bring him with him.  

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25 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I know I have commented before on this topic but that was just re Bronn.

Okay, like most of you, I could have hit Jaime with something hard in the head since episode one in this series.  I personally thought that Cersei's actions leading to Tommen's suicide would have suffice but nope! Still, I do see him as the victim of a very unhealthy and abusive relationship and not just because of the incest.  I have been there and it is terribly hard to break from that.  The victim oftentimes fears loosing their partner (abuser as he/she may be) more than almost anything else.  It does take time and sometimes a major thing happening.  Yes, in the books Tyrion clearly messes around with Jaime's state of mind by revealing her infidelities.  Still... even if Jaime wasn't close to the kids, one would have thought that infidelities are more forgivable that setting fire to the city you killed your King to protect and causing the death (albeit arguably indirectly) of the only child you both have left!  He looked awfully unhappy in that scene but still, he did nothing.  Granted, I expected and would have loved it if he had broken up with her there and then.  On the other hand, I think the way the show did it (although I don't like it) shows just how much power she has always had over him, which is probably in fact more realistic psychologically.  I am pretty sure we will not get an answer to this but I would love to see how the whole thing (incest) started.  In our world men tend to get vilified, especially when it is underage sex or whatever, however physiologically women mature sooner and I am convinced that it was her who wanted to explore her sexuality or ensure his undying allegiance and initiated it, but hey could be wrong.

Now, yes, he has decided that nothing matters but the war against the dead.  She is still plotting, and despite seeing what she saw, very oblivious to the real danger and he is having no more of it!

I am sure he realises how precarious his position with team Starkgaryen is, despite Tyrion... but still he is choosing this over the alternative!  I thought Brienne, although it was a very brief encounter, was the one to really bring the idea home.  For the first time ever she something like "fuck honour."  Honour is what she taught him...  I think that also got him thinking.

Now, for purely plot purposes, he cannot just get to WF and be killed by any of the people there... His arc is one of redemption and my money is on him dying like a real hero.  

However, if I were him I would be worried lol  Bran, for one thing.... There seems to be consensus in this thread to the fact that Bran will take little notice of what he did to him... still Jaime doesn't know that!  Okay, digressing maybe but I took what Tyrion did in meeting Cersei as brave but I think this just tops it all! (Jaime arriving at Winterfell, say...).  It is safe to say that he is likely to suspect Tyrion will vouch for him but I think it will have to be Bran in the end.  Tyrion is family, despite all that has happened.  Tyrion is also likely to get a nasty reception, save for Jon and maybe even Sansa...but they are all under the auspices of the Dragon Queen...

Now, not so long ago, she was ranting and raving about usurpers and what not.  There has been a lot of speculation as to whether Tyrion will betray her.  Personally, I can only see this happening if she kills Jaime or does something really harsh (a la Tarly execution).  He may have made a pact with Cersei to put her unborn on the throne one day but that would not be a total betrayal; just a plan B (if Cersei is neutralised and she will be lol).

I believe Tyrion has taken Dany at face value re infertility.  Very skeptical here.  I do believe that she will conceive but neither Dany, nor Tyrion know that...

Jaime is endangearing himself for sure but what is the alternative???

As for the Lannister forces, I think he just stormed out and rode on his own.  However, I am sure some of the soldiers saw what was demonstrated on the dragon pit.  They follow a commander, sure, and I am sure, Jaime, for all his faults, treats his men well.  Cersei is volatile, erratic.  Word will go around re the undead thingy... and of their Commander's desertion to Cersei.  I feel some will join him without having to be commanded to do so.  Some will not of course but I guess many will.

Now, this could pose a problem for Jaime.  If he arrives at WF and someone/s vouch for him (possibly Bronn as well...) if he arrives with an army chances are (say, in Dany's eyes, that he is no friend but foe)...  I think he needs to arrive alone to have a chance then yes, bring them on lol!

My two cents, he will be put on the spot, possibly on trial.  At that stage I think Brienne and Pod will vouch for him.  Tyrion will either get very talkative defending his bro or say nothing (knowing this will not aid and possibly harm).  Dany will be very impassive until all is said and he will be spared for various reasons; they could do with his knowledge of the Lannister army etc, he is showing he is prepared to fight to the death, but yeah mainly Bran...

Cannot wait to see what truly happens but 2 years!!! lol

 

 

Why would Jamie arriving with an army be a problem, it is what the agreed to do? My hope is Bron deserts and brings some of the lannister forces with him, it makes no sense for him to stay an KL now. 

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32 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

Why would Jamie arriving with an army be a problem, it is what the agreed to do? My hope is Bron deserts and brings some of the lannister forces with him, it makes no sense for him to stay an KL now. 

If he arrives with an army; okay his enemies have a larger army; they could just brand him a traitor and kill him... even without a trial.  I agree that KL is not an option for him but he has to play the diplomat, which okay, maybe is not what he is good at but still...

Now, if he arrives with an army saying it is Cersei's is one thing, but he has deserted her!  So, why are you here, my Lord???

In good time yes, Bronn or someone else leading the Lannister forces could be great but Jaime has to gain the trust of the people he is trying to help first!

 

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If Jaime was still 2 handed it would be the coup of the century to have him on board for the fight against the dead. Give him a dragon glass blade and he would be a human wrecking machine, the worlds most deadly swordsman let loose against an army of wights and walkers is something I would have enjoyed seeing. 

But he really seems to have been reinvented as a battlefield commander and strategist since he left the KG, he had a talent as commander before the hand loss but his desire to always be in the thick of the action so he could swing his sword led him to be reckless. He seems to be different now he's lost his hand and instead uses his head a lot more. I think there'll continue to build on that in the remaining episodes. So for that reason it's highly likely he will end up bringing the Lannister forces with him, shouldn't he technically be Warden of the West and the Lord of Casterly Rock? He should be able to call the banners just like Tywin did when Tyrion was captured. Although what's left of the Lannister host is anyone's guess

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48 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I could have hit Jaime with something hard in the head since episode one in this series

I thought about it a lot: the only logical explanation for Jaime's behavior  it's that he's been hit in the head with something between season 6 and 7, offscreen. Probably the flying bell of the temple. I would have loved to see it, otherwise it makes no sense.

56 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

On the other hand, I think the way the show did it (although I don't like it) shows just how much power she has always had over him, which is probably in fact more realistic psychologically.

No, well the problem is not Jaime still by Cersei's side. That makes sense, as you said. But the way he accepts everything, what he says to her, to Randyll, to Olenna, to Brienne, to Bronn, and what he suggests himself, that psychologically makes no sense. It's random and ooc.

 

As for the future, I'm not so sure he closed with his sister, and I'm not sure "I don't believe you" means a closure. I still hope though.

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4 minutes ago, SerMudz said:

If Jaime was still 2 handed it would be the coup of the century to have him on board for the fight against the dead. Give him a dragon glass blade and he would be a human wrecking machine, the worlds most deadly swordsman let loose against an army of wights and walkers is something I would have enjoyed seeing. 

But he really seems to have been reinvented as a battlefield commander and strategist since he left the KG, he had a talent as commander before the hand loss but his desire to always be in the thick of the action so he could swing his sword led him to be reckless. He seems to be different now he's lost his hand and instead uses his head a lot more. I think there'll continue to build on that in the remaining episodes. So for that reason it's highly likely he will end up bringing the Lannister forces with him, shouldn't he technically be Warden of the West and the Lord of Casterly Rock? He should be able to call the banners just like Tywin did when Tyrion was captured. Although what's left of the Lannister host is anyone's guess

 

I talked about this earlier, I completely agree he isn't a soldier anymore but would make valuable battlefield commander.  The combined forces really only has 3.  Jon and Greyworm and Dany but it's hard to command armies in real time on the back of a dragon.  

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1 minute ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

 

I talked about this earlier, I completely agree he isn't a soldier anymore but would make valuable battlefield commander.  The combined forces really only has 3.  Jon and Greyworm and Dany but it's hard to command armies in real time on the back of a dragon.  

Agreed.  We've already seen that although he was outmatched, and then some, against Dany, Drogon and the Dothraki, he kept his head and did as well as anyone could under the circumstances, to the point of suicidally charging the commander of the enemy forces.  No General in history could have won that battle, but he acquitted himself well.

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21 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

I thought about it a lot: the only logical explanation for Jaime's behavior  it's that he's been hit in the head with something between season 6 and 7, offscreen. Probably the flying bell of the temple. I would have loved to see it, otherwise it makes no sense.

No, well the problem is not Jaime still by Cersei's side. That makes sense, as you said. But the way he accepts everything, what he says to her, to Randyll, to Olenna, to Brienne, to Bronn, and what he suggests himself, that psychologically makes no sense. It's random and ooc.

 

As for the future, I'm not so sure he closed with his sister, and I'm not sure "I don't believe you" means a closure. I still hope though.

To me he has been a victim of extreme psychological abuse.  I was married to a guy who did that to me and my greatest fear, at the time, was him leaving me!

I don't consider myself stupid in the main but I can certainly see why others would; as we do with Jaime!

Someone pointed out the frustration at seeing a friend in a super toxic relationship who keeps going back for more.  I think that is what happened to him...

lol went slightly off topic with your reply.  I think he ignores what Cersei has done because he didn't want for it to be real.  I keep banging on the psychologically abused theme,

Psychological abuse transcends physical abuse, is more powerful! defeats sense!

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5 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

To me he has been a victim of extreme psychological abuse.  I was married to a guy who did that to me and my greatest fear, at the time, was him leaving me!

I don't consider myself stupid in the main but I can certainly see why others would; as we do with Jaime!

Someone pointed out the frustration at seeing a friend in a super toxic relationship who keeps going back for more.  I think that is what happened to him...

As I said it's not about leaving. I would never say that, you know why. It's about how he acted. It is random and nonsense. Not only with Cersei.

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1 hour ago, Error-504 said:

Why would Jamie arriving with an army be a problem, it is what the agreed to do? My hope is Bron deserts and brings some of the lannister forces with him, it makes no sense for him to stay an KL now. 

think about what the Starks and Danny might think.... "he is pretending to be a friend but has a plan B for when we figure out (rightly or wrongly) he is a foe???"

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8 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

As I said it's not about leaving. I would never say that, you know why. It's about how he acted. It is random and nonsense. Not only with Cersei.

I saw it differently.  To me, he wanted to break from her but never got the strength... now he saw the dead and decided this parade could continue no more... and yes mayhaps he acted impetuously... 

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1 hour ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

  I think the thing that will get the Starks to forgive Jaime will be in part because of Brienne, and also because Jaime will stop and free Edmure and bring him with him.  

I may have missed...but free Edmure from whom. Aren't the Frey's dead?  Is Edmure in Riverunn?  I just had a strong amnesia about this...

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12 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

As I said it's not about leaving. I would never say that, you know why. It's about how he acted. It is random and nonsense. Not only with Cersei.

My apologies; would love to see what you mean because beyond what I have already said I am a little clueless

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10 minutes ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

I may have missed...but free Edmure from whom. Aren't the Frey's dead?  Is Edmure in Riverunn?  I just had a strong amnesia about this...

Funnily enough, in the show we cannot be sure of his fate, although there was talk of bringing him wife and kid to Casterley... Not sure to be honest.  I guess, don't hate me guys, he is the least character I am invested in possibly after FAegon in the books but hey, that is my own snobbery.  I can only relate to characters with charisma it seems lol (my bad!)

I certainly don't want him ruling the Riverlands on the sole grounds that he is the most boring character in the entire series (IMHO) lol

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On 8/28/2017 at 1:05 PM, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

 

You don't think he would be spared if he told everyone what Cersei's plans are?  What if he gives up his sword since it was forged from ICE?  Could ICE be reformed from Brienne and Jaime's swords?

The white walkers have passed the wall already. My bet is not only would there not be time for a trial, no one is going to care. The others are coming, have taken out the wall(where they believed their best chances for a final stand is with ease) and are coming fast. If the others march to Dorne and only kill whoever engages them? almost evreyone in westroes will quickly die. 

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44 minutes ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

I may have missed...but free Edmure from whom. Aren't the Frey's dead?  Is Edmure in Riverunn?  I just had a strong amnesia about this...

I thought he was a Lannister hostage somewhere at Casterly Rock.  Unless the unsullied freed him. Isn't that the deal Jaime made with him?

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