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Erkan12

Did Varys win the competition between LF ?

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In your own view, what do you think ? Does it count as a victory for Varys ?

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24 minutes ago, MyLittleFinger said:

The show lost.

Agreed.

And the problem is, I don't get what Vary's angle/game/whatever is anymore. His character died earlier this season, just kinda there and that's it.

Though you can argue LF died at the end of season 4. Sooooo I guess you're right, Varys did win?

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No. Neither Varys nor his little birds had any hand in Littlefinger's downfall. Varys was being honest when he told Littlefinger "thwarting you has never been my primary ambition". I think he enjoyed their game for what it was, but Varys didn't hate Littlefinger. As he admitted to Olenna, he actually liked him. Littlefinger was just apt to cause more chaos than Varys could effectively use.

Varys will likely have a great deal more respect for Sansa after this, because the Sansa he remembers would never be capable of taking down Littlefinger.

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Not really imo. I honestly don't really get Varys' motivations but if I compare him to LF, LF was the player. He put the whole war into motion, he even helped to kill a king. Varys (the show one!) on the other hand was lurking here and there and his big move was to bring Olenna and Dorne to Daenerys and Daenerys lost them like two episodes later. LF risked and although he ultimetely lost because the writers make him act like an idiot, he actually played the game. Varys outlived LF, that's right, but let's not forget Mel's prophecy.

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Sort of? As Varys is the one left standing alive and the person he backs (Dany) might end up on the throne, at least for a while. Although I never thought that they had a competition to the death, as Varys has remarked, thwarting LF wasn't his main ambition.

The sad thing is that on the show Varys is most likely biting the dust next season, which saddens me. I always thought that at least one of them would be left alive as a survivor in the end.

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2 hours ago, Erkan12 said:

In your own view, what do you think ? Does it count as a victory for Varys ?

Of course Varys won.  Absolutely 

Varys is still alive, and still in a position of great influence.

Littlefinger, on the other hand, is dead, due to the fact that his numerous stupid blunders finally caught up to him.

Indeed, LF's final blunder was one of the most egregious (failing to realize he was in EXTREME danger in Winterfell b/c of Bran's omniscience, ESPECIALLY after Bran made the "Chaos is a ladder" comment to him.  That comment should have set warning bells and sirens off in LF's head, and he would have been wise to flee WF immediately as fast as he could.  But no.)

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8 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Varys is still in the show? He's been completely useless the whole season.

C'mon man, he is in the small council of House Targaryen right now.

Littlefinger vs. Varys gif -

 

 

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1 hour ago, btfu806 said:

Agreed.

And the problem is, I don't get what Vary's angle/game/whatever is anymore. His character died earlier this season, just kinda there and that's it.

Though you can argue LF died at the end of season 4. Sooooo I guess you're right, Varys did win?

We're in total agreement here. The show has seemed to remove any hints of Varys secretly being a Blackfyre or Illyrio's wife being a Blackfyre (though that's possibly a season 8 twist). In that light, Varys makes no sense.

1) When there is still so much injustice that exists in Essos (pre-Dany Slaver's Bay, slavery in Volantis, rumored human sacrifice in Qohor and Asshai), why does a native of Essos even care what happens in Westeros? Varys hates magic and slavery, both of which are far more prominent on Essos, with all its psycho Red Priests who burn everybody alive, Faceless Men who worship death, etc. If he's not secretly a Targaryen or a Blackfyre, why does Westeros in particular bother him so much?

2) As Dany confronted him about, he was actively trying to put Viserys on the throne. Robert Baratheon was just fine as king. He was feared enough to prevent open rebellion, and he at least had enough sense to charge better men with running his kingdom. Yet Varys (along with Littlefinger) undermines Ned Stark after Jon Arryn's murder, and continues to keep the Lannister incest a secret, which allows Joffrey to take the throne, and later Tommen.

3) He served the Mad King faultlessly. Yes, people often excuse that by saying Varys was just doing his job. But that doesn't fit his character. Varys has to some degree, undermined every person he ever served. If he doesn't agree with you, conspiring against you is certainly not something he has moral qualms about. He even tells Dany in the show that few kings in history were as bad as her father, yet he never conspired to overthrow the Mad King.

4) So now Varys is a man who propped up the Mad King, conspired to place Viserys on the throne, and allowed the Lannister incest to remain secret which put 2 terrible kings on the throne. How does this equate to fighting on behalf of the realm's poor and downtrodden?

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1 hour ago, Nerevanin said:

Not really imo. I honestly don't really get Varys' motivations but if I compare him to LF, LF was the player. He put the whole war into motion, he even helped to kill a king. Varys (the show one!) on the other hand was lurking here and there and his big move was to bring Olenna and Dorne to Daenerys and Daenerys lost them like two episodes later. LF risked and although he ultimetely lost because the writers make him act like an idiot, he actually played the game. Varys outlived LF, that's right, but let's not forget Mel's prophecy.

The ultimate irony is that Varys brought Tyrion into Dany's service, and it's Tyrion who undid Varys's 2 brilliant acquisitions of Dorne and the Reach with his subpar war strategy. I will say though, in the earlier seasons, that Varys did a lot. He just moved more subtly than Littlefinger. Even before that terrible Ramsey error, we saw Littlefinger make blunders by mocking Cersei about the incest to her face AND by impulsively kissing Sansa at the Eyrie. That led him to either impulsively kill Lysa and face trial, or let her kill Sansa (his key to the North). Varys never did anything that foolish, and that was because he lacked the "desire" that ruined so many other people, as he mentioned to Oberyn.

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two of the most interesting complex and mysterious characters since the show started played very well by both actors, completely wasted and in Little fingers case such an anti climax, he was so smart and outwitting everyone in the early seasons, but everything he did in the last 2 seasons was so transparent.

And I have no doubt by the time varys dies/if he dies he will also be so irrelevant it wont even be a wtf moment either

If they had killed either of them off in the first 4 seasons it would have been a big thing, littlefingers death felt no bigger than any minor characters death.

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1 hour ago, MarieAntoinette said:

Sort of? As Varys is the one left standing alive and the person he backs (Dany) might end up on the throne, at least for a while. Although I never thought that they had a competition to the death, as Varys has remarked, thwarting LF wasn't his main ambition.

The sad thing is that on the show Varys is most likely biting the dust next season, which saddens me. I always thought that at least one of them would be left alive as a survivor in the end.

It saddens me too, but I would rather see Varys killed than turned into a sad excuse for a character. He appears to have lost his entire spy network to Qyburn (not sure how that's possible). At this point, Varys's wide range of spies throughout Westeros and Essos should learn that the Golden Company has taken a contract from the Iron Throne. Moving 20,000 soldiers across continents is a large undertaking. But watch Varys end up being completely oblivious to this.

For crying out loud, he only had 1 line in the finale, and Bronn just brushed him off after he spoke. The worst part was Varys telling Tyrion "You have to find a way to make her listen" with this fearful look on his face. Varys has whispered in the ears of powerful magisters, lords, and kings for decades. Now he is suddenly confused about how to manipulate the powerful when he's dealing with a young, inexperienced queen.

I also can't believe that Varys seems to be so generally nervous about Dany's brutality. He's had her spied on for years, and he's the one who sent Jorah, Tyrion, Barristan, Dorne, and the Reach to Dany. Why has he given so much time and effort to supporting a queen who he seems to know very little about? Again, I would rather see Varys killed than reduced to a joke.

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If by winning, one is dead and the other alive, sure.

But the winner I think is still LF because of what he was able to accomplish; near-ruin of some great houses and a war that destabilized the kingdom. Doesn't get much better than that if you're a megalomaniac. I can't even reconcile the first few seasons of show Varys to what he is now as part of Dany's council. 

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7 minutes ago, Sand11751 said:

If by winning, one is dead and the other alive, sure.

But the winner I think is still LF because of what he was able to accomplish; near-ruin of some great houses and a war that destabilized the kingdom. Doesn't get much better than that if you're a megalomaniac. I can't even reconcile the first few seasons of show Varys to what he is now as part of Dany's council. 

I'm pretty sure Littlefinger doesn't feel very much like the winner right now.

Pretty sure.

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Varys makes less sense in the show now because without the Young Griff storyline he really doesn't have any source material to go off and therefore they don't have any intriguing motivation for him. Personally, I think he's a Blackfyre in the books but it's too much to add into the show. So he's just sort of there. 

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Varys has been relegated to Tyrion's "Missandei"- useless character standing silently behind more important characters adding nothing to the plot. 

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Varys serves the realm.

When he discovered Shae, Tyrion told him he'll throw him in the sea if Varys threatens him again.  Varys answered, you'd be surprised with the results, kings come and go but I stay.

If Varys dies, the realm dies imo.

When LF asked him what he'd do if he had the iron throne, Varys said he does not want to sit on the throne unlike all the other people, including LF.

They both worked to protect the realm from different interests.  LF was money driven.

I don't think they were competitors.  They were intellectual friends who liked to jib jab.

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