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ummester

The Wall

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The wall has been a divide between the known and the unknown since the story started and it just crumbled in this lacklustre, unexplained fashion. Is anyone else disappointed by what happened to it  this episode?

Exactly what purpose did it serve when it was standing? Do you think we will ever get an explanation as to why it was built and why an undead dragon can melt it or is it just going to be one of those unanswered things?

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I pondered the same questions. The wall has stood for 8,000 years and one un-dead dragon can take it down? That entire scene of the wall coming down was really hard for book-readers to believe.  Not sure if I should be talking about books in this part of the forum, but this scene is well ahead of the books now. 

For the sake of backstory, I'll say this - Book readers were lead to believe that 8000 years ago, Bran the Builder enlisted help from the children of the forest who incorporated spells and sorcery into the wall to help protect it. Hence, it is hard to believe that one un-dead dragon, breathing blue fire or ice fire (pick one, because, gasp, another unexplained phenomena!), can alone take down the wall.  Is the TV series implying that since they have killed off the children of the forest last season, the protective spell died with them? 

To address your question as to if we will ever get an explanation - After enduring the Ayra vs. Sansa TV series plot drama with major head-scratching, I definitely leaning towards believing that D&D will just leave the reasons as to why and how the wall was built by the way-side.  At this point, the only thing I am hoping for next season of TV series regarding the wall failing is somehow Tormund and Beric survived that scene (see my comment above about unexplained phenomena).  That all being said, I am really enjoying the TV series, it's similar to the new Twin Peaks series in that you just got to roll with the narrative and enjoy the scenery. 

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I couldn't believe what I was watching tbh. To top it off, its again Starks who f*cked it up and after 8000 years gave the Night King means to cross The Wall.

Thanks D&D :rolleyes:

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Book readers have a hard time believing a dragon can take down the wall but blowing a magical horn would be perfectly fine?

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I agree in showverse we will never know.  We also won't know what the NK's plan 'A' was.

I wanted the magic of the wall to be undone and have the entire wall crumble in a disaster on a biblical scale.  But D&D didn't ask me.  I think based upon what they have said in interviews in the last few weeks that D&D believe ratings are the ultimate deodorant and they are covered as long as people tune in in record numbers.  It is show business with an emphasis on business after all.

If I were to try to maintain my own suspension of disbelief I would have to reason that 1 magic made the wall possible, 2 dragons have been shown to amplify or even radiate magic (house of the undying and the production of wildfire and the forging of valerian steel), and therefore 3 undragon can unmake magic of a lesser (TM Stannis) level.  The undragon broke the wall using a combination of fire and magic.

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5 minutes ago, Ambria said:

Book readers have a hard time believing a dragon can take down the wall but blowing a magical horn would be perfectly fine?

exactly. The endless nitpicking is hard to believe sometimes.

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I have read the books so I'm not really here or there with books vs the show - but neither source fully explains the mechanics of the Wall.

If it was erected to keep the WWs/Others from going south, how exactly did it work? Could the wights have just scaled it and fallen down the other side like they did the cliff at Hardhome? Was it just that a 50ft wall is fine and a 700ft wall is too high?

And yes, how exactly does that dragon work? We don't even know if the undead dragon breath is hot or cold and, if it's cold, how did it bring down the wall?

Say the horn brings the wall down, I would expect some vague description, like the magic woven into the horn resonated through the air and shattered the magic holding 700 ft of ice together or something.

I've given up on the characters in the story but was still hoping the magic/world would make some semblance of sense - things like the wall falling down have been building up for a long time, like winter. Why the hell didn't Sam take or read a book explaining the wall rather than cleaning shitters and finding out the same things about dragonglass he already knew?

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26 minutes ago, ummester said:

Say the horn brings the wall down, I would expect some vague description, like the magic woven into the horn resonated through the air and shattered the magic holding 700 ft of ice together or something.

At this point, all we really know about the horn is that the wildlings have a legend that it can bring down the Wall, and that legend isn't entirely implausible (because Joramun became King Beyond the Wall during the reign of Night's King, so he could have been a contemporary of Bran the Builder and known some secrets of the Wall's construction), even though other legends about the same horn are all about it raising giants from the Earth.

I suppose that could imply that the way it brings down the Wall is by raising giants to smash it, or even by raising giants whose bodies are part of the foundation, and magic, of the Wall, but that doesn't seem to likely.

And otherwise, I wouldn't expect anyone to have any understanding of how it's supposed to work. Nobody understands how the Wall works. Even information that the original Watch apparently wanted to last forever, like the wards on the original castle gates, is lost. If the horn brings down the Wall in the books, we probably won't learn how it works until either shortly before or after it happens (presumably through Bran).

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3 hours ago, Ambria said:

Book readers have a hard time believing a dragon can take down the wall but blowing a magical horn would be perfectly fine?

I am starting to think the two are even related.  The magical horn that brings down the Wall may not literally do it, but do it by controlling Dragons whose fire can do it.

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4 hours ago, Col Cinders said:

If I were to try to maintain my own suspension of disbelief I would have to reason that 1 magic made the wall possible, 2 dragons have been shown to amplify or even radiate magic (house of the undying and the production of wildfire and the forging of valerian steel), and therefore 3 undragon can unmake magic of a lesser (TM Stannis) level.  The undragon broke the wall using a combination of fire and magic.

I don't know why would one need to suspend disbelief to concede that magic overcame magic and the wall came down.

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1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said:

I am starting to think the two are even related.  The magical horn that brings down the Wall may not literally do it, but do it by controlling Dragons whose fire can do it.

So it will be the dragon's magic fire that brings down the wall, otherwise the NK could've burnt his wights and brought down the wall. Don't see how magical fire from a turned dragon is any less believable.

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The warlock mentions in the house of the undying that their magic was born again with the birth of the dragons and is strongest in their presence. From that dialogue it seems reasonable that the dragons are involved with magic in some form or another. The magic of the dragon infused with the magic of the NK would be able to combat the magic within the wall. 

The fire from the dragon would cause rapid expansion and breaking  of the ice and could easily destroy the wall once it begins breaking and crumbling under its own weight. 

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It was clearly anti-freeze UnViserion was breathing. Makes perfect sense for it to be the Wall's kryptonite ;)

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5 hours ago, Ambria said:

Book readers have a hard time believing a dragon can take down the wall but blowing a magical horn would be perfectly fine?

I mean, to be fair, a magical horn did burn the inside of a guy in the Iron Islands when he blew it. So, magical horns are a thing that can have an effect.  I think the Horn of Joramum (?) may be more myth or bolstering of a myth then just you blow the horn and the wall falls down.

 

5 hours ago, Col Cinders said:

I agree in showverse we will never know.  We also won't know what the NK's plan 'A' was.

I wanted the magic of the wall to be undone and have the entire wall crumble in a disaster on a biblical scale.  But D&D didn't ask me.  I think based upon what they have said in interviews in the last few weeks that D&D believe ratings are the ultimate deodorant and they are covered as long as people tune in in record numbers.  It is show business with an emphasis on business after all.

If I were to try to maintain my own suspension of disbelief I would have to reason that 1 magic made the wall possible, 2 dragons have been shown to amplify or even radiate magic (house of the undying and the production of wildfire and the forging of valerian steel), and therefore 3 undragon can unmake magic of a lesser (TM Stannis) level.  The undragon broke the wall using a combination of fire and magic.

I thought dragons increased magic and didn't diminish it. Not saying that doesn't mean they still couldn't be the kryptonite to the walls magic but just my understanding.

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5 hours ago, Ambria said:

Book readers have a hard time believing a dragon can take down the wall but blowing a magical horn would be perfectly fine?

You know that within this story, ASOIAF, The Wall is pretty much THE most important location? They spend exactly 5 minutes on it. Missandei and Grey Worm romance got more time than that. And it's not just 'dragons', it is the whole build up till there, so the NK's plan was to fetch a dragon from wight hunters venturing across and kill a dragon in a rescue mission? As far as I'm concerned, there is no other way to pass The Wall than that.

They had no f******g idea how to get out of it and they thought of the most retarded mission in history of missions. In a show that is already on a tight time schedule they choose to spend 2 hours on that + the whole 'need to convince Cersei' plot. A story within the story that brought absolutely nothing in terms of progression the story.

See, that time, I'd rather have that time to explore the lore, see what The Wall is about and have an epic battle - AT the wall, not some random ice lake. We have a medium sitting in Winterfell, a medium that can travel back in time to uncover a LOT of secrets regarding The Wall itself.

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51 minutes ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

 I think the Horn of Joramum (?) may be more myth or bolstering of a myth then just you blow the horn and the wall falls down.

There might be more to it than just "blow the horn and the wall falls down", but that may just mean more ritual. Maybe there's some sacrifice involved, as with the dragonhorn. Or maybe they have to walk around in a circle once/day for seven days and then seven times in a row, as with Joshua's horn in real-world mythology.

Maybe it is something more indirect, like you blow the horn and giants wake up and you point them at the Wall.

Or maybe it's only part of the solution: blowing the horn weakens the magic for a short time, but you still need to smash the physical Wall while it's unprotected. 

Or maybe it's just something the wildlings made up over the millennia as wishful thinking, because a horn that could take down the Wall was a lot more appealing than a horn that could wake giants.

Since we know almost nothing at this point, it could be almost anything, and be consistent with what we know. All that matters is whether they make it interesting. In the books, that would largely be a matter of giving us background and history, rather than mechanics. In the show, the mechanics matter even less, except insofar as they contribute to making it visually compelling.

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8 hours ago, plastic throne said:

See, that time, I'd rather have that time to explore the lore, see what The Wall is about and have an epic battle - AT the wall, not some random ice lake. We have a medium sitting in Winterfell, a medium that can travel back in time to uncover a LOT of secrets regarding The Wall itself.

Yes, I was hoping for much the same thing, an exploration of lore, accept with Sam in Oldtown. All things considered Sam's visit to Oldtown may be more disappointing than Arya's visit to the House of Black and White - both places that should have been perfect for exposition on the world and it's magic, whether spoken or presented visually.

Only thing I now hope is that this season was entirely filler and they didn't want to give any of the mechanics of the universe away before next season, to keep it for some kind of end game surprise. But at this stage, I'm more than half expecting no explanation and some battles with either Jon or Dany sacrificing themselves so the other can rule on that stupid Iron seat that should be melted down.

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10 hours ago, falcotron said:

There might be more to it than just "blow the horn and the wall falls down", but that may just mean more ritual. Maybe there's some sacrifice involved, as with the dragonhorn. Or maybe they have to walk around in a circle once/day for seven days and then seven times in a row, as with Joshua's horn in real-world mythology.

Maybe it is something more indirect, like you blow the horn and giants wake up and you point them at the Wall.

Or maybe it's only part of the solution: blowing the horn weakens the magic for a short time, but you still need to smash the physical Wall while it's unprotected. 

Or maybe it's just something the wildlings made up over the millennia as wishful thinking, because a horn that could take down the Wall was a lot more appealing than a horn that could wake giants.

Since we know almost nothing at this point, it could be almost anything, and be consistent with what we know. All that matters is whether they make it interesting. In the books, that would largely be a matter of giving us background and history, rather than mechanics. In the show, the mechanics matter even less, except insofar as they contribute to making it visually compelling.

I agree completely. I was just pointing out that book readers believing that "a simple horn could bring the wall down" isn't going to be as simple as just blowing the horn.  It all depends on how GRRM presents it in the book though.

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And so the whole plan of NK boiled down (pun intended) to go circles for like 8000 years untill some idiot flies a dragon before his face.

Major facepalm.

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I've accepted, quite early on, that the series are "based upon" the books, and nothing more.

This has made me enjoy the series a lot more, than I would have otherwise. It entertains me, very much so. But they will not replace reading the books, in any way.

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