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Danny-

Let's talk about Cersei !

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On 28/08/2017 at 7:14 PM, We Pay Our Debts said:

I love how Cersei is far more competent in the show than she is in the book. In AFFC, I thought she became too pathetic and cartoonish. It's weird because, for the first three books, I preferred Book!Cersei over Show!Cersei in the first 3-4 seasons.

Lena's acting is also incredible and gives so much life and depth to Cersei's character.

In her chapters, most of the time she thinks she's being clever even when she's not. Especially when you've already read it once, it's hilarious reading her self-congratulatory thoughts on what she believes in cunning manipulation of the High Septon. The best way to outwit people it to let them think they're outwitting you and that's what happens to Cersei. Sometimes I wonder if the show's writers took her narration too seriously and came away thinking she really was "Lord Tywin with teats".

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

I am not sure where many people see crazy and stupid Cersei. :unsure: For me, in the last season she was the most sane she ever was and was, arguably, the only smart person in the entire season.

I suppose it depends on your definition of sane. Sometimes her schemes are well executed, but if you get right to the core of everything, why is she even bothering? OK now she's pregnant so she sort of has a flimsy excuse, but before that she was paranoid, and once all her children were dead she was motivated by little other than hatred and a refusal to cut her losses. Whether or not she was good at achieving her goals, I think if you asked her what her goals were and why, you'd walk away thinking "Yep, she's crazy." Looking at the most recent example, it's like she doesn't even know how not to backstab any more. She cuts straight to thinking "How would my father, the magnificent bastard, have fucked these people over to his advantage?" without first thinking "What are my goals? Is fucking these people over the best way to achieve them?"

What I'm not actually sure of is if she has been deliberately written this way, or if she is actually intended to seem like a kind of fantasy Moriarty.

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On 29/08/2017 at 5:12 AM, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

(how cool is it going to be when Cersei realizes the husband of her dreams didn't want her, and neither did her first actual husband, and then realize they both loved Lyanna Stark)

Woaw Never thought about that!!!! 

 

On 29/08/2017 at 7:02 AM, falcotron said:

Send him off to lead the remnants of the Lannister army to the Wall, just as he pledged to do, expecting Euron to show up when he gets there, just as everyone else does, and then do her backstab with Euron as late as possible, without giving Jaime any advance notice.

yeah yeah

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On 8/28/2017 at 5:39 PM, Mad Madam Mim said:

Cersei seems to be the only one bothering to play the game at the moment, everyone else is too busy playing Scoobie Doo with the NK. 

Was Cersei intending to carry out her plan to pretend to help then break her word from the start? She initially agrees to help on the proviso that Jon gives his word to never take up arms against her and this is portrayed as a deal breaker. If her plan was to pretend to help/then break her word all along then this would be pointless as surely when she breaks her word then Jon is not honour bound to keep his and can take up arms against her again? If she was planning to break her word from the start then she would not have needed to add the Jon proviso and would have just pretended to agree regardless.  This suggests to me she may have actually meant what she said at the time when she agreed to help (as she saw some benefit to her).

If we follow this logic then it appears it is only after she walked off and had a chat with Tyrion that her plan changed.

She must not have even intended to keep her word with the Jon nonsense because Euron had already played his hand with the.........I'm going to hide from the non swimming wights up on the Iron Islands.  Cersei told Jaime that whole thing was as a ploy, so Cersei seems like she was always going to lie about supporting a truce or helping the Wight Extermination Team.  I'm guessing ShowCersei is so supposedly so smart that she knew St. Tyrion the Super Politician would take it upon himself to come work out something.  Yup, that sounds like the Ds idea of Cersei.  All knowing, especially this season, just waiting for Tyrion to trick him and him alone really.  Jon just gave Cersei her first shot at the drama of NO.  If Jon hadn't said that, I'm thinking she would have had another idea.  Or, she was waiting for Dany to negotiate a different answer from Jon. 

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5 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

She must not have even intended to keep her word with the Jon nonsense because Euron had already played his hand with the.........I'm going to hide from the non swimming wights up on the Iron Islands.  Cersei told Jaime that whole thing was as a ploy, so Cersei seems like she was always going to lie about supporting a truce or helping the Wight Extermination Team.  I'm guessing ShowCersei is so supposedly so smart that she knew St. Tyrion the Super Politician would take it upon himself to come work out something.  Yup, that sounds like the Ds idea of Cersei.  All knowing, especially this season, just waiting for Tyrion to trick him and him alone really.  Jon just gave Cersei her first shot at the drama of NO.  If Jon hadn't said that, I'm thinking she would have had another idea.  Or, she was waiting for Dany to negotiate a different answer from Jon. 

I don't think she would have expected Tyrion to come through to her.  That was simply a bonus.

She made a reasonable-seeming demand.  When Jon rejected her terms, she had a good excuse for turning down his and Dany's offer.  If Jon had accepted her terms, she could still have offered limited assistance, while strengthening her forces during the truce, by bringing in the Golden Company.  Or she might have chosen to betray them as soon as they left.

The fact that Tyrion did go in to see her gives her the opportunity to pretend to relent. 

It would have seemed out of character for Cersei to agree the truce immediately, which ironically, would have made her opponents more suspicious of her motives than her actual behaviour did.

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19 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Well, Cersei is short sighted and foolish.

But she managed to deceive everyone - including her own two effing brothers who really should have known better - so the joke is on them.

I mean, CERSEI LANNISTER is telling you that she is going to support you with her armies with no conditions other than... yy... holding the high moral ground? - and you believe her?  You are an idiot. Yes, you, Tyrion. And you too Jaime. And you, Varys. And most of you on that meeting, really, since you should know her by reputation.

And Lena Heady is incredible indeed, she almost managed to sell it.

Ah, and I really loved the moment when Daenerys was parading her dragons and everyone was gawking and Cersei was like: 'You are late :/'.

And on the meta level I loved how a season ago everyone was like: 'Cersei is on the throne now but she won't stay there for long!' and here we have the next season's finale and they can only repeat it. Yeah, I know, bad writing, and this time it's trues, but still. Homegirl is resilient.

The joke is on the audience. This last episode proved the Dany could have waltzed right into King's Landing, snatched it from Cersei, and not had to bother losing a dragon with that stupid Northern expedition. But Tyrion has handicapped Dany at every turn because he somehow feels all this loyalty to a family and a city that he hates beyond measure.

Last time Tyrion was in King's Landing, he murdered his father and his lover. And at his trial, he told everyone present that he wishes he had let Stannis kill them all. Cersei tortured him from the time he was an infant, to the point where Oberyn's heart ached for him after only seeing it for a few days or weeks. Now this same Tyrion loves his family so much that he doesn't want to see them go down?

Not to mention that the show has made Varys useless. Qyburn went from being a competent healer to a Mary Sue who can raise the dead, design dragon killing weapons, reverse engineer poisons, serve as Hand of the Queen, and use the little birds to find wildfire that Varys never knew about (despite him having the same little birds for 20 years!). And what is this Euron? An Ironborn captain who went from wanting Dany's hand in marriage to becoming completely loyal to Cersei.

That's my issue, going all the way back to the Deus Ex Machina wildfire moment. Cersei's a badass villain who ran her course. Now we dumb down Tyrion and Varys, handicap Dany, power up Qyburn, marginalize Littlefinger, and turn Euron into an errand boy so that Cersei can remain in power.

This is the exact same awful stunt they pulled with Ramsay. Roose and Littlefinger became clueless morons around Ramsay, in order to prop him up. Stannis and Jon became terrible military leaders, and the whole thing quickly got boring. The final act of GOT should be presenting us with seemingly invincible threats like the Night King, or Euron if they gave him his magic from the books. Cersei is something we've already seen.

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On 8/28/2017 at 4:48 PM, Aegon_Blackfyre said:

Have to give it to Cersei she's been a step ahead of everyone this season. she formed an alliance with Euron which crippled the Targaryen fleet and knocked Dorne out of the fight, she rallied the lords of the reach to rebel against House Tyrell/Olenna which was the last of Dany's initial Westerosi allies and finally put on a whole show to convince Jon and Dany that Cersei will indeed go North but instead is using it to buy time to hire and bring the Golden Company to Westeros while her enemies are busy fighting the White Walkers.

actually euron was the one the one who took dorne and the "good guys of the iron isles" out. Yes she called him to kings landing and then refused him but not sure how that makes her responsible for getting rid of dany's allies since euron would have gone after them anyways since he needs theon and yara dead already. And jaime was the one to bring the reach allies in. So really cersei has just been listening to people and letting them do their jobs

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9 hours ago, Dofs said:

I am not sure where many people see crazy and stupid Cersei. :unsure: For me, in the last season she was the most sane she ever was and was, arguably, the only smart person in the entire season.

How do you not see crazy? When Jon talked about everyone in King's Landing becoming a wight, she laughed and said it would be an improvement for most of them. What sane queen would laugh about how miserable most people are under their rule?

I understanding executing Tyene the same way that Myrcella was killed, but leaving Ellaria chained down there forever is insane. Having Zombie Mountain rape Septa Unella while she enjoys her screams is insane. Blowing up the Sept was insane.

Cersei looks more competent this season because of contrived writing. Everyone else who was brilliant in earlier seasons has been handicapped, but she really hasn't done much other than twirl her mustache. 80% of Cersei's success has been due to Euron, who didn't even join her until Theon and Yara ruined his plan to join Dany in overthrowing Cersei. She's been extremely lucky, just as she was lucky that Arya decided to turn back to Winterfell.

If Arya had come to King's Landing under a new identity to kill her, what was her plan for that? What if Dany had ignored Tyrion and stormed King's Landing? What if Euron had gotten to Dany before Theon and Yara, and he joined with her? Cersei hasn't been prepared to deal with anything. Her enemies are just conveniently tripping over their own feet.

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On 8/28/2017 at 2:14 PM, We Pay Our Debts said:

I love how Cersei is far more competent in the show than she is in the book. In AFFC, I thought she became too pathetic and cartoonish. It's weird because, for the first three books, I preferred Book!Cersei over Show!Cersei in the first 3-4 seasons.

Lena's acting is also incredible and gives so much life and depth to Cersei's character.

to be fair a drunk monkey would be more competent then she was in the books.

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13 minutes ago, Lorathi said:

How do you not see crazy? When Jon talked about everyone in King's Landing becoming a wight, she laughed and said it would be an improvement for most of them. What sane queen would laugh about how miserable most people are under their rule?

I understanding executing Tyene the same way that Myrcella was killed, but leaving Ellaria chained down there forever is insane. Having Zombie Mountain rape Septa Unella while she enjoys her screams is insane. Blowing up the Sept was insane.

Cersei looks more competent this season because of contrived writing. Everyone else who was brilliant in earlier seasons has been handicapped, but she really hasn't done much other than twirl her mustache. 80% of Cersei's success has been due to Euron, who didn't even join her until Theon and Yara ruined his plan to join Dany in overthrowing Cersei. She's been extremely lucky, just as she was lucky that Arya decided to turn back to Winterfell.

If Arya had come to King's Landing under a new identity to kill her, what was her plan for that? What if Dany had ignored Tyrion and stormed King's Landing? What if Euron had gotten to Dany before Theon and Yara, and he joined with her? Cersei hasn't been prepared to deal with anything. Her enemies are just conveniently tripping over their own feet.

well actually I will allow that what she did to the sand snakes was justified. That septa thing was brutal but after all she did she had to have something horrible happen to her but cersei enjoyed it way too much. The last straw for cersei's sanity was when she took so much enjoyment when the great sept was destroyed. That was when she lost it.

As for cersei's competence it was jaime who planned their strategy for going after the reach and abandoning kings landing and he was the one who convinced randyl tarly to join them. So all she really did was let the people who can do their jobs actually do them. Now she is making a stupid plan

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On 30/08/2017 at 9:54 AM, Ser Petyr Parker said:

Sometimes her schemes are well executed, but if you get right to the core of everything, why is she even bothering? OK now she's pregnant so she sort of has a flimsy excuse, but before that she was paranoid, and once all her children were dead she was motivated by little other than hatred and a refusal to cut her losses. Whether or not she was good at achieving her goals, I think if you asked her what her goals were and why, you'd walk away thinking "Yep, she's crazy."

Sorry but what exactly do you see in her motivations that makes her crazy? I see that she wants power but that only makes her powerhungry, not crazy.

On 30/08/2017 at 9:54 AM, Ser Petyr Parker said:

Looking at the most recent example, it's like she doesn't even know how not to backstab any more. She cuts straight to thinking "How would my father, the magnificent bastard, have fucked these people over to his advantage?" without first thinking "What are my goals? Is fucking these people over the best way to achieve them?"

In the most recent example she explained that she expects to be on losing side either way. And no wonder, she was refused in the only thing she asked and Dany did not propose her anything else. That's why Cersei believes that Dany would deal with her later if they defeat the White Walkers and hence she sees no point in helping Dany. I don't see anything crazy in this.

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