Can we talk about Jon?

[Apoplexy]

1 hour ago, WSmith84 said:

Except it was established that Jon didn't know if the Northern lords would follow him in his decision to bend the knee. Jon needs to ask himself: what will he do if the Northerners (such as his sisters and brother) say 'no' to Daenerys? What will he do if they refuse to bend the knee alongside him? Will he fight against them, lead the armies of Daenerys against the armies of the North? Will he let Dany burn Sansa, Arya and Bran alive like the Tarlys? It's such a fucking stupid decision because Jon had already secured her support to fight the army of the dead. And I guarantee that the Northerners would be a lot more inclined to bend the knee to a Targaryen after she's helped them defeat the army of the dead.

As with every king, it is never assured that when he bends the knee, his people will follow. Whenever someone bends the knee, it is usually their best assessment about what should be done.

As for what will he do if Sansa and Arya refuse to join him, I'm assuming he expects to convince them. We probably will see this play out in the next season.

And I'm also guessing that Jon bent the knee because he didn't want the two sides to quarrel after they fought the AoD. Either or both could be killed in the battle and he didn't want anymore bloodshed.

[falcotron]

1 hour ago, Snormund said:

She was naked. Does she have pockets in her skin? 

Two words: arse gun.

Or arse necklace. Same thing. If they can get away with that on a family show like Doctor Who, I'm pretty sure GoT can too.

[LucyMormont]

2 hours ago, ramla said:

He wanted to kill Theon, and he wanted to kill Melisandre. He said he would take her head if she came north again. She raised him fromt he dead... Theon didn't and Davos wasn't a friend of his. he was Stannis Hand.

Jon bending the knee made no sense as he's a king and has far more to consider then just "oh you saved us! I'll sell out the North for you!". This is not the time to cause an issue like this. Yet here he goes doing his best Rob Stark impression. Stannis saved Jon and he didn't bend the knee for him. Its literally i bend my knee cause you're beautiful. lol

Jon bending the knee  had not much sense in regards to the timing of the whole thing, but the comparison with Stannis is not fair. Jon was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, he wasn't allowed to support neither Stannis nor whoever king. Yet, he would gladly have bent the knee to him, and he did recognize Stannis as the true king. He even said so when they met "I know you are the king. My father died for you"

As for Theon and Melisandre, those are not comparable situations either. Theon is now Dany's ally, he can't kill him no matter how much he wants to. Even if you don't consider that Sansa supposedly pleaded for his life, Jon  was a guest on Dragonstone, he could not kill any of Dany's allies. 

[Meera of Tarth]

S7's theme_-----> boatsex. 

Scenes that support this theory:

Wighthunt for Cersei, it's Tyrion's idea. But once Jorah wants to go there, Jon quickly wants also. That's because he wants to be a brave guy.

Dany admits he is behaving like a brave man...

He destroys the purpose of the wight hunt because he feels the need to win Dany's heart as an honourable man, considering that in their last scene she didn't jump into his bed after being brave. So, by doing it, he takes a rik, but when they are in the corner, he nows that was the most quickly way leading to boatsex, which is what he has always wanted.

No matter who died in the wight hunt, what matters is the present, and boatsex.

[ramla]

3 hours ago, Hoo said:

I never understood king in the north to mean a permanent secession.  They declare kingdom when they are in an open rebellion, and then when things quiet down they become subservient to KL for the peace of the realm.

Him bending the knee is a matter of course, that's what they do in the north.

This is why Cersei wants him to suspend the rebelllion before declaring her help.  It's an issue.  But he cannot do it because he already made peace with one throne contender.  And Cersei's mad.

King in the north is just a King who happens to be in the north of westeros. Only reason it may be temporary is if Jon took the iron thrown, then he'd become King of Westeros and all those extra titles. He's not a steward or a regent. King is literal. Kingslanding is onle held sway because the other 7 kingdoms pledged thier allegiance and knelt to the iron throne. If they chose to they could all have kings.

[ramla]

3 hours ago, Snormund said:

Thank you. 

 

Jon handwaving all else because Dany is beautiful is completely out of character. If he was so driven by his cock he would have hooked up with Melisandre (who he was clearly attracted to. That whole scene with her trying to seduce him showed how Jon is stronger than his cock! Now look at him) too and hit on Cersei this past episode. 

Exactly. Its like the whole, "Kill the Boy Jon Snow and let the man be born" was forgotten. Its like as soon as he died 4real, he just came back a kid again. lol 

[ramla]

2 hours ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

...And at the rate that dragon is deteriorating, he'll be riding a skeleton dragon mid way through season 8.

LOL Yeah the holes in his wings guess were for exhaust. He was fast too!. LOL

[Sir Dingleberry]

2 hours ago, Snormund said:

NK isn't good at maintenance, it seems. 

Good chance that  Todd and Daedpan will do something dumb enough to give him another one, though.  

I mean they could always just offer the other dragon as a truce so the NK can deal with the true enemy in the Great War, Hotpie.

[Sir Dingleberry]

15 minutes ago, ramla said:

LOL Yeah the holes in his wings guess were for exhaust. He was fast too!. LOL

I wonder if when he revived the dragon the NK was like, "ya he looks too alive, we need to put holes in his wings for effects, possibly scrap some skin off to show some bone." That'll scare em

[ramla]

1 hour ago, LucyMormont said:

Jon bending the knee  had not much sense in regards to the timing of the whole thing, but the comparison with Stannis is not fair. Jon was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, he wasn't allowed to support neither Stannis nor whoever king. Yet, he would gladly have bent the knee to him, and he did recognize Stannis as the true king. He even said so when they met "I know you are the king. My father died for you"

As for Theon and Melisandre, those are not comparable situations either. Theon is now Dany's ally, he can't kill him no matter how much he wants to. Even if you don't consider that Sansa supposedly pleaded for his life, Jon  was a guest on Dragonstone, he could not kill any of Dany's allies. 

Well, the Nightswatch still adhere to common courtesy. Stannis was a King so he was treated like one. Jon thought him another doomed pretender at first. Still respected him. Jon wouldn't have needed to kneel to him as the Watch takes no part in that stuff... doesn't mean act like you don't know how to treat a King at the wall. They made provisions and made space for the King while he was there. 

If Jon wanted to kill Theon, he would have told him exactly what you said. "If you were not an Allie I would Kill you" but he didn't... he said he forgave him. Somebody who devastated his family and his home. Yes he met Shireen... But, he killed Ollie. He watched as Craster son was carried off by a white walker... He watched Melasandre burn people (Just like Davos). He also wouldn't be alive if it hadn't been for her. Banishing Melanie for something she did to somebody he met in passing, in the show, for somebody who he just started to know makes no real sense. Especially not banishment with threat of death. 

I mean do you know how many lives the wildlings have taken of the nightswatch? Jon thinks way too clearly then that.

[ramla]

5 minutes ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

I wonder if when he revived the dragon the NK was like, "ya he looks too alive, we need to put holes in his wings for effects, possibly scrap some skin off to show some bone." That'll scare em

He makes some upgrades. LOL

[EddardSnow]

7 stabs wounds tells me jon needs not explain why he left the Night Watch too nobody. Tormond Giantsbane more or less i think convinced Jon to change his mind and he saw Danys sacrafice in loosing her Dragon showed Jon she was more then a tyrant that burns people. Also I think Missandai likely started to change Jons mind when she told him why she served Dany and really there whole meeting was too show there arguing would likely always be a thing because of there different ideas on things but both likely were turned on by there first meeting. Plus the show does not say how many days jon was there.

[greensleeves]

27 minutes ago, ImNoSer said:

Jon snow is king in the north not robin.

do you know what your talking about?

Yes, I was responding to a post talking about needing to bend the knee in order to get an ally to help you. I was pointing out that the Vale forces saved the North last season yet didn't claim the North for Robert Arryn.

[falcotron]

1 minute ago, greensleeves said:

Yes, I was responding to a post talking about needing to bend the knee in order to get an ally to help you. I was pointing out that the Vale forces saved the North last season yet didn't claim the North for Robert Arryn.

It's actually still not clear to me what the Vale's status is. Clearly they're in open rebellion against Cersei now, and they joined in proclaiming Jon as the King in the North. But does that mean they now consider the Vale to be annexed to the North as part of a larger kingdom, like the Riverlands earlier did under Robb? That they now consider the Vale to be independent under Robin? That they still consider the Vale to be part of the Seven Kingdoms, but just no longer consider Cersei the Queen, even though they don't have a rival pretender to support? (In which case, good thing Dany eventually showed up…)

They're all at least somewhat plausible, and I guess it's not likely to be important to any of the events likely to come next season, and of course we don't know the details of the status of Dorne and the Reach, or even the basics of the Stormlands and the Riverlands… But that doesn't stop me from being curious.

[greensleeves]

2 minutes ago, falcotron said:

It's actually still not clear to me what the Vale's status is. Clearly they're in open rebellion against Cersei now, and they joined in proclaiming Jon as the King in the North. But does that mean they now consider the Vale to be annexed to the North as part of a larger kingdom, like the Riverlands earlier did under Robb? That they now consider the Vale to be independent under Robin? That they still consider the Vale to be part of the Seven Kingdoms, but just no longer consider Cersei the Queen, even though they don't have a rival pretender to support? (In which case, good thing Dany eventually showed up…)

They're all at least somewhat plausible, and I guess it's not likely to be important to any of the events likely to come next season, and of course we don't know the details of the status of Dorne and the Reach, or even the basics of the Stormlands and the Riverlands… But that doesn't stop me from being curious.

All good questions. I have no idea. Their continued presence at Winterfell seems to imply that they will continue to fight with the North, for now.

[SansaJonRule]

9 hours ago, Snormund said:

This is the 3rd and final time I attempt making a thread discussing what happened to his character. I believe this is well worth a thread. 

 

Does it not bother anyone else the way Jon bent the knee to Daenerys after making a big deal out of his loyalty and duty to keeping the North independent? Especially considering she treated him rather shabbily all season, to say the least. She has done nothing to earn his undying love and devotion besides being beautiful. This is completely out of character for Jon in my book. He is someone established as one who doesn't make decisions based on his lustful impulses but now he sells out the North because of them? What. I think he acted incredibly foolishly and selfishly and out of character regarding Dany 

My initial reaction was what are you doing?  But as I watched again and thought about it, I came to the conclusion that D&D had him bend the knee because she saved them.  He feels confident the northern lords will agree with him once they know her.  That doesn't mean I agree with the way they did it.  The northern lords trusted him not to subjugate to another ruler, and I think what he should have told her was "I believe in you and when I get back to WF, I am going to ask my banner men to support you".  That wouldn't have decreased his loyalty to her as an ally at all, while at the same time maintaining his loyalty to the north as well.

[rivers snow]

I agree with the observation that the show has dumbed Jon down quite a bit - but i have no issue with his bending the knee as it's consistent with his MO which is to always see the long game.

He let the wildlings cross the wall because it was the right thing to do, despite the betrayal it might cost him. He kneeled here because he believes Dany is civilizations greatest hope (as Tyrion, Varys, and like everyone else who has encountered her do too). 

He didnt do it because he had to, or it was convenient, or for the nookie, its totally Jon to do what he thinks is the right play irrespective of what the folks he leads think. 

Also, Torrhen was revered for having the foresight to avoid the massacring of the North. History will prob see Jon the same. 

[Snormund]

16 hours ago, ramla said:

Well, the Nightswatch still adhere to common courtesy. Stannis was a King so he was treated like one. Jon thought him another doomed pretender at first. Still respected him. Jon wouldn't have needed to kneel to him as the Watch takes no part in that stuff... doesn't mean act like you don't know how to treat a King at the wall. They made provisions and made space for the King while he was there. 

If Jon wanted to kill Theon, he would have told him exactly what you said. "If you were not an Allie I would Kill you" but he didn't... he said he forgave him. Somebody who devastated his family and his home. Yes he met Shireen... But, he killed Ollie. He watched as Craster son was carried off by a white walker... He watched Melasandre burn people (Just like Davos). He also wouldn't be alive if it hadn't been for her. Banishing Melanie for something she did to somebody he met in passing, in the show, for somebody who he just started to know makes no real sense. Especially not banishment with threat of death. 

I mean do you know how many lives the wildlings have taken of the nightswatch? Jon thinks way too clearly then that.

The more I think about it I think the show just wanted a way to (mostly) get rid of Mel because they have no idea what to do with her without Stannis. 

Its funny how Davos and the show forgets Mel saved him from execution. Mel really should have pointed that out. I really think her treatment has been hypocritical given who it's come from and the things these same characters have been okay with from others. It also was mind numbingly dumb for Jon to banish her with the coming threat of the army of the dead. He's usually pragmatic. 

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

I think Tormund's words about Mance beyond the wall had something to do with it.  He may feel that Dany is the key to defeat the white walkers because of her dragons and because she is an honorable person.  I just wish it would have been mentioned to Jon and Dany that Ned was the only person who stood up to Robert when he wanted Dany killed. To me it would have made more sense for that to be a reason why Dany would put her trust in Ned Stark's "son", and maybe Jon would have seen that as a sign.  

Now that we know for a fact that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, could Ned have possibly been willing to stand up against Dany's murder because she was a child and he knew she was Jon's aunt as well?  

[ramla]

15 minutes ago, Snormund said:

The more I think about it I think the show just wanted a way to (mostly) get rid of Mel because they have no idea what to do with her without Stannis. 

Its funny how Davos and the show forgets Mel saved him from execution. Mel really should have pointed that out. I really think her treatment has been hypocritical given who it's come from and the things these same characters have been okay with from others. It also was mind numbingly dumb for Jon to banish her with the coming threat of the army of the dead. He's usually pragmatic. 

Exactly and, Tyrion burned his sons in Wildfire... But he just commented about that in passing.

I agree they didn't know what to do with her. Without the source material, and because they moved beyond what she's been doing in the books. She just a character with no aim. Of course GRRM told D&D her fate, which is probably why she was banished and will appear in the final season to basically die or perform whatever ending fate dictates.