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Can we talk about Jon?

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1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

As for their unique abilities such as heat resistance

Valyrians don't have innate heat resistance.  The ongoing fire immunity is showDany only.  

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4 hours ago, snow is the man said:

And she only has to fight the lannisters and their allies where as aegon had to fight almost everyone. So dany has it alot easier in terms of human forces she faces.

I wouldn't say so. Aegon was a man, and a warrior. While Dany is far from being Xena, Red Sonja or Wonderwoman.

Quote

I am sure the night king would be able to get past the wall somehow. 

When Mance Reider ambushed Castle Black, one of his giants lifted the gate, using chain and mamonth.

Gates, arches and tunnels are not infused with protection spells. There are two (near)facts that prove it.

When Bran found 3ER, he was chased by bunch of wights. When they tried to enter in the cave undernear that tree, they collided with invisible barrier and shattered. Though when two dead Brothers of NW were brought to Castle Black, thru gates, nothing happened with them. If there was a barrier in the gate's arch/tunnel, then they wouldn't have became wights. Because when their bodies were crossing thru that barrier, the evil spirit / zombie virus was supposed to leave their bodies. But they turned into wights, which proves that there's no barrier in the gateway.

Second (near)fact: the Wall is old, and the gates are not.

The Wall is made from stone, snow and ice. It's also infused with spells that prevent White Walkers and wights from crossing on the other side. Additionally it's likely that those spells are also preventing the Wall from melting. Gates are made from metal and wood. The wood is rotting over time, and metal rusts. The Wall was build 8,000 years ago. And no metal or wood can last that long. The gates were damaged by nature and time. Not to mention fire and ambushes from wildlings.

Also gates at Castle Black and Eastwatch are different. Which means that those gates are not original. In span of 8,000 years those gates were repaired and replaced multiple times. So even if first gates were infused with spells, they are long gone.

Thus Night's King can go thru gates. And he didn't went earlier, because probably there was some sort of barrier, that prevented NK and WW from passing thru the gates, but didn't prevented wights from passing thru. But when NK killed 3ER and Children, all barriers dispersed. And when uncle Benjen said that he can't go beyond the Wall, it was either a lie, or mistake of D&D, they just needed him staying where he is, to later save Jon. Or he just didn't wanted to go back to other people, because he was already a rotting corpse.

NK took with him chains and giants, because he was planing to open the gates in the same manner as it was done by Mance Reider. Probably he was going to open all gates, that's why he brought several chains.

What may be a proof of this theory, is that when Bran saw Night's King and his Undead Army, shortly before NK killed original 3ER, there was no giants with them. Which means that between Bran's escape, and next time NK's army was shown on screen (in season 7), he gathered all those giants, that were with him in opening scenes of S7E1.

It's ridiculous that people think that NK knew about dragons, and was even waiting for them, to kill one of them and use it to break the Wall.

And those ice-spears he used to kill giants, polar bears, direwolfes, etc. He didn't prepear them specifically to kill the dragon.

NK's original plan was to use giants and chains to open the gates. Instead he used them to pull dead dragon out from the lake. I guess giants went into water and wrapped those chains around dragon's neck, and then they walked in head of each column of wights, and dragged those chains. <- this theory also explains time skip. When Dany and Co escaped, NK also went away, but later he returned and reanimated the dragon. And where do you think he went? - To fetch his giants and chains. And there was no giants among those who attacked Jon and Co because giants are slow, and also NK was saving them for later, when he will need them to breake the gates.

Edited by Megorova

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2 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

Valyrians don't have innate heat resistance.  The ongoing fire immunity is showDany only.  

Heat resistance is not the same as fire immunity. In the books, Dany can indeed take baths in scalding hot water, as can Egg in the dunk and egg series.

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11 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Heat resistance is not the same as fire immunity. In the books, Dany can indeed take baths in scalding hot water, as can Egg in the dunk and egg series.

I don't think that is some Targ/Valyrian trait, considering the fact that I've had occasion to share a shower with someone who liked the water hotter than I could stand.  It was like dunking my sack into boiling water.  

Then again there was a time when I could pull sizzle plates right out of the oven without burning my hands.  

So I don't think the tendency of two characters who enjoy taking ridiculously hot baths is an indication of heat resistance for an entire bloodline.  

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6 hours ago, MaesterWho said:

So... Dany came to her crush's aid. That's not enough to bend the knee. 

It's more to it than that. You really should read the link that was posted earlier in this thread.

Edit: https://www.buzzfeed.com/jennaguillaume/bendany?utm_term=.xyYjbOW4L#.vbzy72p8b

Edited by MinscS2

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2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Heat resistance is not the same as fire immunity. In the books, Dany can indeed take baths in scalding hot water, as can Egg in the dunk and egg series.

Taking a bath in scalding hot water (~80*C) without getting burned is one thing.
Grabbing something that lay in a small bonfire (300*C) let alone walking into a big funeral pyre and standing in a burning house (600-1100*C) without even getting burned is another thing entirely.

Show-Dany and Book-Dany are different in this regard, but Show-Dany is to all intents and purposes, immune to damage from fire.

Edit: She's also apparently immune to asphyxiation when surrounded by fire, but let's not open that can of worms. :P

Edited by MinscS2

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2 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

I don't think that is some Targ/Valyrian trait, considering the fact that I've had occasion to share a shower with someone who liked the water hotter than I could stand.  It was like dunking my sack into boiling water.  

Then again there was a time when I could pull sizzle plates right out of the oven without burning my hands.  

So I don't think the tendency of two characters who enjoy taking ridiculously hot baths is an indication of heat resistance for an entire bloodline.  

Being able to tolerate really hot water is heat tolerance. While it is possible that other targs do not possess this trait, having more than one Targaryen show the trait makes it possible that it COULD be a Targaryen trait. There isn't evidence to the contrary.

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11 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Taking a bath in scalding hot water (~80*C) without getting burned is one thing.
Grabbing something that lay in a small bonfire (300*C) let alone walking into a big funeral pyre and standing in a burning house (600-1100*C) without even getting burned is another thing entirely.

Show-Dany and Book-Dany are different in this regard, but Show-Dany is to all intents and purposes, immune to damage from fire.

Edit: She's also apparently immune to asphyxiation when surrounded by fire, but let's not open that can of worms. :P

Which is what I was saying. 

 

 

And yes, show Dany is fireproof, or at least she became fireproof after the birth of the dragons.

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4 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Which is what I was saying. 

 

 

And yes, show Dany is fireproof, or at least she became fireproof after the birth of the dragons.

 

She should just have Drogon try and burn her everytime she is asking someone to bend the knee. I am mean, literally if someone is fireproof and they control Dragons clearly the gods have already decided that person should be in charge.

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2 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

 

She should just have Drogon try and burn her everytime she is asking someone to bend the knee. I am mean, literally if someone is fireproof and they control Dragons clearly the gods have already decided that person should be in charge.

Depends on which god/gods have chosen her, doesn't it? :)

 

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24 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Depends on which god/gods have chosen her, doesn't it? :)

 

Lol. True i say it half in jest but i feel like more people in universe should be impressed and talk about that.

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44 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Being able to tolerate really hot water is heat tolerance. While it is possible that other targs do not possess this trait, having more than one Targaryen show the trait makes it possible that it COULD be a Targaryen trait. There isn't evidence to the contrary.

Lack of evidence is kind of the point.  Luckily the onus of providing proof of the existence of a thing falls upon the one claiming that thing exists. 

You never hear about people trekking through the wilderness looking for proof that Bigfoot doesn't exist.  

At this point, your two vague examples are correlation at best, coincidence at worst. 

It very well could be a Targaryen trait, or a trait shared by those of valyrian blood. If so, I find it peculiar that, after three hundred plus years of Targaryen rule over Westeros, it's not a trait that is ever mentioned by any Targaryens in any story published so far.  

I find it more likely that these were traits given to main characters to give them a little shape and individuality within their stories.  

Maybe we'll find out when Fire & Blood is published. 

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56 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

Lack of evidence is kind of the point.  Luckily the onus of providing proof of the existence of a thing falls upon the one claiming that thing exists. 

You never hear about people trekking through the wilderness looking for proof that Bigfoot doesn't exist.  

At this point, your two vague examples are correlation at best, coincidence at worst. 

It very well could be a Targaryen trait, or a trait shared by those of valyrian blood. If so, I find it peculiar that, after three hundred plus years of Targaryen rule over Westeros, it's not a trait that is ever mentioned by any Targaryens in any story published so far.  

I find it more likely that these were traits given to main characters to give them a little shape and individuality within their stories.  

Maybe we'll find out when Fire & Blood is published. 

Tolerance to extreme heat (but not fire) seems likely to be a Targaryen/Valyrian dragonlord trait.

Similarly, it's implied that Starks have a similar tolerance for cold; this trait is likely one that other Northern First Men have, likewise it's probably shared with the Free Folk/Wildlings, although it may be more pronounced/stronger in the Starks.

 

As for why Targaryen heat tolerance hasn't been mentioned by any of them ... why would it? It's not something to talk about, it's just the way they are, and in the handful of cases where we have information on temperature preferences and tolerances, the Targaryens can tolerate extremes of heat that others don't.

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On 29 August 2017 at 7:01 AM, Masha's apron said:

This is an excellent post. 

My feeling is that the ShowJon's character development basically stopped after his resurrection, and, indeed, started regressing.He actually seems more naive, vulnerable and less experienced than he did back in series one. He also seems to have forgotten all the lessons he learnt about leadership during his tenure as Lord Commander, including the very reason why he got killed in the first place. 

it is quite obviously a writing problem. ShowJon is now just some emo kid who walks around looking wan, confused and troubled. He's completely unbelievable as King in the North; he has no gravitas at all anymore. And when he was proclaimed King, there should have been talk about who he would marry to build an alliance (this would have been a perfect opportunity for Sansa to show her painfully-acquired diplomatic skills, and would have been a source of tension between her and Jon in light of the possibility of his death at both Danys' and the White Walkers' hands). Marriage alliances were one of the major themes in the earlier series, and the reason for the downfall of Robb Stark at the hands of Walder Frey; this stuff is important in Westeros. 

For example, instead of requesting Dany's "help" in mining the dragonglass; why didn't he approach her with a marriage proposal? It's not like this would be unusual in Westeros, nor something Dany would not expect. She's done it before. Then we could have had a very interesting dynamic set up whereby the idea of an arranged dynastic marriage between the North and Dany creates fallout with other Westerosi houses and other singular supporters such as Tyrion (who may or may not see trouble ahead in such a match), and that would have made the revelation about Jon's parentage even more shocking, particularly if it came to light after the marriage had gone ahead or if it was used as a reason why the marriage could not go ahead.    

It would have also provided a viable reason for Dany and Jon to cross the wall with a couple of dragons. If the proposal is that Dany marries Jon in order to secure the support of the North for her claim to the IT in return for dragonglass and help with the WW, then there would have been a reason for Jon to insist she goes to see the WW threat to the realm herself, and that's when she loses Viserion to the NK.     

I also think that Jon losing his side kick/foil in Sam when he went to Old Town has caused story problems. For the last few episodes, Jon has had no other appropriate character by which an exchange of dialogue can take place that reveals how his internal thinking about the situation with Dany, his position as King in the North or the idea behind the wight-show. All we see are his decisions with no insight into any of his reactions to prior actions that then provoked said decisions ~ and he's supposed to be a primary protagonist. We are supposed to know why he is doing things and making the decisions he is ... but we just don't. I can't particularly figure out just why he's in love with Dany or why she is in love with him. He hardly knows her, compared to someone like Jorah whose feelings make far more sense. 

In short, no-one is really confiding in other characters anymore, so there's no revealing insights. Everyone has become a lone island in the story.

 

 

 

     

 

I agree. The lack of appropriate dialogue when there are key plot issues to be discussed, during the past 2 seasons is utterly frustrating for the viewer. We've gone beyond the books and so have no point of reference as the viewer (even if you haven't read the books you'd notice the difference!). And maybe that's just it. D&D don't have a point of reference either other than what GRRM has dottered on about to them, so they figure the less said, the better and we can all go online and talk about various theories and it makes the show more popular :-) 

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On ‎9‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 1:38 PM, Megorova said:

At that point in time he was still Brother of Night's Watch, and in their oath there's this part - "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory."

As a person he wanted to help his sister and free Winterfell, but as a Brother of Night's Watch he had no right to do so. Black brothers have no right to participate in any battle aside from those that are part of their watch. So they can fight either against wildlings, or against White Walkers. They are forbidden to participate in any outside battles, that can benefit them personally, or involve them personally. After they joined NW, they have to forget their previous lives, and let go everything that mattered to them. Their sole purpose in life is to serve Night's Watch.

Shortly after Jon pledged himself to NW, he tried to escape from Castle Black, to join Robb, when he learned that Lannisters executed Ned. He temporarely violated his oath, because at that point he was emotionally unstable. But then other Brothers brought him back, and reminded him about his oath. Also later he had conversation with maester Aemon, and he realised that he can't go back to his previous life, that's not him anymore. So even though Stanis's offer was very tempting, he had to decline, because Jon Snow, Brother of Night's Watch, has no right to fight for Winterfell, and has no right to be legitimised as Jon Stark.

But after that he was killed. He died. His watch is ended. He isn't bound by oath anymore, he can do what he wants, and go where he wants, and bend the knee for whoever he wants.

I'm aware of all that.  I'm just speaking in the sense of his kneeling to Dany.  He did because he thought it was the most practical way (which is confusing b/c he already had her support without kneeling) to save the North.  At the time Stannis saved him, staying in the NW wasn't the most practical way to save the North.  The Noth was divided and he knew the best way to defeat the WWs (at the time) was to unite the North.  I understand the oath.  All I'm saying is if were being practical, the best time to kneel for Jon was to Stannis and not to dany in my opinion. 

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On 9/3/2017 at 6:30 PM, Megorova said:
  • He f*cked her, not married with her.

Several brothers of NW often visited whores at nearby village. But they weren't punnished for it. Even though both maester and Lord Commander knew about it.

The oath does require them to be celibate (i.e. not to marry), but it doesn't require them to become assexual. The only problem is that there is no women at Night's Watch. Doesn't mean that they can't go elsewhere to scratch that itch.

  • You mean after he was killed, or am I missing something?
  • He died. That's a fact, not a matter of wording.

 

Doesn't Celibacy mean abstaining from sex? I don't think they would take his head for it, but it is a rule he broke.

Jon, intended to ride for Winterfell to make Ramsey answer for what was said in the Pink letter. This alone would be seen as a broken Oath because the NW takes no part in the squabbled of the 7 kingdoms. However, he could make a case that Ramsey threatened the watch and those under his protection which would validate his decision to ride to Winterfell.

Yes you're correct he did die. but the wording has to do with the politics of his withdrawal from the watch.

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On 9/3/2017 at 6:48 PM, Eternal_King_Stannis said:

Jon's death and resurrection served no purpose at all.

I think this is because the showrunners didn't establish Jon's Warg abilities. Its evident that they had Ghost around him thru-out his time being dead, but not any sort of connection. Without his Warging, his resurrection can't be really explained by the showrunners. They've been know and admitted to making things murky or vague to keep from having to explain stuff.

I think in the books his death will have great meaning. I also think Varamyr Six Skins chapter, foreshadows Jons experience with death. Jon's warg abilities were getting stronger and stronger before he died.

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On 9/4/2017 at 11:53 AM, jcmontea said:

This is a good analysis for why Jon bent the knee.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jennaguillaume/bendany?utm_term=.bxgZ04lZK#.gxRAoGrAN

 

Forgive me but the show is not deep at all and they mismanaged the dialogue and approach to the whole Dany and jon relationship. Buzzfeed makes a good case by filling in the voids left by the showrunners. But we know they push things to happen even if its not logical. They have established that trend for years now. Here's the thing. Bending the knee to Dany is a complication that he/they did not need at that moment. He hadn't talken to his people back at winterfell about anything. Torrhen was with his people when he bent the knee. Not in some cabin, estranged from those he serves. Dany had just professed to defeat the NK without his bentknee.

This complicates matters deeply. The leaders in the North were already questioning Jon Snow's leadership. Now he's bent the knee without consulting anybody? And hasn't been in contact with his people much? King jon Snow's responsibilty is to the people of the North, his family first...  Not to Dany.

Basically he didn't have to bend the knee to work with Dany. Just work together and deal with it after the others are dealt with.

Edited by ramla

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15 hours ago, Megorova said:

When Mance Reider ambushed Castle Black, one of his giants lifted the gate, using chain and mamonth.

Gates, arches and tunnels are not infused with protection spells. There are two (near)facts that prove it.

When Bran found 3ER, he was chased by bunch of wights. When they tried to enter in the cave undernear that tree, they collided with invisible barrier and shattered. Though when two dead Brothers of NW were brought to Castle Black, thru gates, nothing happened with them. If there was a barrier in the gate's arch/tunnel, then they wouldn't have became wights. Because when their bodies were crossing thru that barrier, the evil spirit / zombie virus was supposed to leave their bodies. But they turned into wights, which proves that there's no barrier in the gateway.

Second (near)fact: the Wall is old, and the gates are not.

The Wall is made from stone, snow and ice. It's also infused with spells that prevent White Walkers and wights from crossing on the other side. Additionally it's likely that those spells are also preventing the Wall from melting. Gates are made from metal and wood. The wood is rotting over time, and metal rusts. The Wall was build 8,000 years ago. And no metal or wood can last that long. The gates were damaged by nature and time. Not to mention fire and ambushes from wildlings.

Also gates at Castle Black and Eastwatch are different. Which means that those gates are not original. In span of 8,000 years those gates were repaired and replaced multiple times. So even if first gates were infused with spells, they are long gone.

Thus Night's King can go thru gates. And he didn't went earlier, because probably there was some sort of barrier, that prevented NK and WW from passing thru the gates, but didn't prevented wights from passing thru. But when NK killed 3ER and Children, all barriers dispersed. And when uncle Benjen said that he can't go beyond the Wall, it was either a lie, or mistake of D&D, they just needed him staying where he is, to later save Jon. Or he just didn't wanted to go back to other people, because he was already a rotting corpse.

NK took with him chains and giants, because he was planing to open the gates in the same manner as it was done by Mance Reider. Probably he was going to open all gates, that's why he brought several chains.

What may be a proof of this theory, is that when Bran saw Night's King and his Undead Army, shortly before NK killed original 3ER, there was no giants with them. Which means that between Bran's escape, and next time NK's army was shown on screen (in season 7), he gathered all those giants, that were with him in opening scenes of S7E1.

It's ridiculous that people think that NK knew about dragons, and was even waiting for them, to kill one of them and use it to break the Wall.

And those ice-spears he used to kill giants, polar bears, direwolfes, etc. He didn't prepear them specifically to kill the dragon.

NK's original plan was to use giants and chains to open the gates. Instead he used them to pull dead dragon out from the lake. I guess giants went into water and wrapped those chains around dragon's neck, and then they walked in head of each column of wights, and dragged those chains. <- this theory also explains time skip. When Dany and Co escaped, NK also went away, but later he returned and reanimated the dragon. And where do you think he went? - To fetch his giants and chains. And there was no giants among those who attacked Jon and Co because giants are slow, and also NK was saving them for later, when he will need them to breake the gates.

Hm, are you saying the NK always had the ability to use the gates or that him touching Bran or him killing the CotF really brought the barriers down and now he can use them? 

Jon clearly thought all along that the Wall alone wouldn't stop the AotD, that's the whole reason he's rallying support. Otherwise, doing nothing would be the simplest solution to the problem.

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28 minutes ago, ramla said:

Forgive me but the show is not deep at all and they mismanaged the dialogue and approach to the whole Dany and jon relationship. Buzzfeed makes a good case by filling in the voids left by the showrunners. But we know they push things to happen even if its not logical. They have established that trend for years now. Here's the thing. Bending the knee to Dany is a complication that he/they did not need at that moment. He hadn't talken to his people back at winterfell about anything. Torrhen was with his people when he bent the knee. Not in some cabin, estranged from those he serves. Dany had just professed to defeat the NK without his bentknee.

This complicates matters deeply. The leaders in the North were already questioning Jon Snow's leadership. Now he's bent the knee without consulting anybody? And hasn't been in contact with his people much? King jon Snow's responsibilty is to the people of the North, his family first...  Not to Dany.

Basically he didn't have to bend the knee to work with Dany. Just work together and deal with it after the others are dealt with.

Except that article doesn't "fill in voids", it simply recaps the entirety of their interactions together, so I disagree with the conclusion that the dialogue and approach was mismanaged.  There is a pretty clear through-line from the beginning of Jon's interactions with Dany (and vice versa) of him not trusting her.  Once that trust is filled in, and Jon sees Dany and her dragons in action (sacrificing herself/Viserion her child to save Jon), Jon is willing to bend the knee.  Not because he has to...because he wants to.  Of course this is further reinforced by the fact that he has fallen in love with her and she has fallen in love with him.  

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