Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Snormund

Can we talk about Jon?

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

Except that article doesn't "fill in voids", it simply recaps the entirety of their interactions together, so I disagree with the conclusion that the dialogue and approach was mismanaged.  There is a pretty clear through-line from the beginning of Jon's interactions with Dany (and vice versa) of him not trusting her.  Once that trust is filled in, and Jon sees Dany and her dragons in action (sacrificing herself/Viserion her child to save Jon), Jon is willing to bend the knee.  Not because he has to...because he wants to.  Of course this is further reinforced by the fact that he has fallen in love with her and she has fallen in love with him.  

This. 

Whether he needed to bend the knee or not is different from why he bent the knee. The show establishes both why he bent the knee and why Jon didn't consult with anyone. Jon just does shit. He has never consulted with anyone. For him to decide to start consulting with the northern lords for this decision would be the real break in his character. He does what he thinks is right and thats it. 

He really believes that the northern lords will accept her once they get to know her. And frankly, based on everything we have seen about Dany and how people react to her in universe, he is probably right. She wins people over through a combination of her ideals, charisma, actions and power. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

Except that article doesn't "fill in voids", it simply recaps the entirety of their interactions together, so I disagree with the conclusion that the dialogue and approach was mismanaged.  There is a pretty clear through-line from the beginning of Jon's interactions with Dany (and vice versa) of him not trusting her.  Once that trust is filled in, and Jon sees Dany and her dragons in action (sacrificing herself/Viserion her child to save Jon), Jon is willing to bend the knee.  Not because he has to...because he wants to.  Of course this is further reinforced by the fact that he has fallen in love with her and she has fallen in love with him.  

If its simply recaps it would read like a chronological checklist. But it doesn't. The Article gave exposition and explanations based on their opinion on what was written and filmed. Which was wooden characters with little chemistry and limited and poor dialogue. It CLEARLY fills the voids left behind by poor writing. Maybe not for you. and thats ok. Only thing clear about the screenplay between Jon and Dany was that they needed Jon and Dany to fall in love by episode 6 by any means necessary... They let the plot create the path of the characters instead of it being the other way around. The payoff's was him kneeling and her giving him some. Both gave something.

Btw: Jon represents more then his own self interests. He's been, up to this point, even in the show, acting outside of his own personal motivations and fighting for the realm. Giving his knee now is selfish and without concern for the North something out of character for him.

" Not because he has to...because he wants to. "
Selfish motives without thought of the outcome... but he's honorable. Right. And everything you stated further reinforces the reason for this thread in the first place. The showrunners have butchered Jon's character... Willing to kneel because she's cute and he loves her and she saved him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

For him to decide to start consulting with the northern lords for this decision would be the real break in his character. He does what he thinks is right and thats it.

Bingo.
All this talk about why Jon doesn't consult the other northern lords is really strange. Jon never seeks the approval of his peers or subjects (when in a position of power) to do what he considers to be the right thing, he simply does it. It was that mentality that got him murdered in the first place, but that hasn't discouraged him from still doing what he think is right, no matter the odds and what others think. He continues to do it, and Davos supports him. ("Now go and fail again!")

Alliser Thorne and the other veterans of the Nights Watch didn't want him to bring the Wildlings south of the Wall, but he did anyway.
The Northern Lords and Sansa wanted him to punish the Karstarks and Umbers, he told them that he won't and that his decision was final.
The Northern Lords and Sansa wanted him to stay in the North instead of sailing to Dragonstone, he ignored them and sailed anyway.

This conversation makes me think of what Master Aemon told Jon back in Season 5:

JON: I need your advice. There's something I want to do, something I have to do. But it'll divide the Night's Watch. Bitterly. Half the men will hate me the moment I give the order.

AEMON: Half the men hate you already, Lord Commander. Do it.

JON: But you don't know what it is.

AEMON: That doesn't matter. You do. You will find little joy in your command. But will luck, you will find the strength to do what needs to be done. Kill the boy Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy, and let the man be born.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jcmontea said:

This. 

Whether he needed to bend the knee or not is different from why he bent the knee. The show establishes both why he bent the knee and why Jon didn't consult with anyone. Jon just does shit. He has never consulted with anyone. For him to decide to start consulting with the northern lords for this decision would be the real break in his character. He does what he thinks is right and thats it. 

He really believes that the northern lords will accept her once they get to know her. And frankly, based on everything we have seen about Dany and how people react to her in universe, he is probably right. She wins people over through a combination of her ideals, charisma, actions and power. 

The show doesn't establish why he bent the knee.... She said SHE wanted to destroy the NK. She didn't say, Kneel and I will help defeat the NK!? She even said "are you sure"? lol
And yes according to the show... when it wants to go from point A to point B with Jons character, "Jon just does shit". CTHU  This Jon that just does shit is out of character and out of place.

Why did Jon bring the wildlings south of the wall? There's a reason.... He didn't jut do shit cause.
Why did Jon Kill Quorin Halfhand? Range to Hardhome?  Even in the show there are reasons. And he often communed with his colleagues, friends and lords. He even did so when he went south to treat with Dany. He had the final say of course but he didn't just leave. (Mind you it was idiotic for him a King to wrisk his life for this "Person he doesn't know" and to trap a weight.)

...and how dumb is he to believe the Northern Lords will accept her? That makes no sense. She's their queen know without their say! They by proxy, kneel to her without their choice or their oaths. They probably would have logically accept her better had she come to the North as Jons Equal. Like there's nothing logical about any of this. The Northern lords literally were talking about ousting Jon for Sandra! cthu But they ok with him making this level of decision. Right...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And in the books Jon seeks approval and/or council all-the-time. He just doesn't seem to get it. But his actions always have meaning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  Quote
JON: I need your advice. There's something I want to do, something I have to do. But it'll divide the Night's Watch. Bitterly. Half the men will hate me the moment I give the order.

AEMON: Half the men hate you already, Lord Commander. Do it.

JON: But you don't know what it is.

AEMON: That doesn't matter. You do. You will find little joy in your command. But will luck, you will find the strength to do what needs to be done. Kill the boy Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy, and let the man be born.

If there is one person in the WOIAF that I would listen to and follow with blind allegiance (no pun intended), it's Maester Aemon. 

Good job finding that quote, it sums up the correct way to rule Westeros

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Bingo.
All this talk about why Jon doesn't consult the other northern lords is really strange. Jon never seeks the approval of his peers or subjects (when in a position of power) to do what he considers to be the right thing, he simply does it. It was that mentality that got him murdered in the first place, but that hasn't discouraged him from still doing what he think is right, no matter the odds and what others think. He continues to do it, and Davos supports him. ("Now go and fail again!")

Alliser Thorne and the other veterans of the Nights Watch didn't want him to bring the Wildlings south of the Wall, but he did anyway.
The Northern Lords and Sansa wanted him to punish the Karstarks and Umbers, he told them that he won't and that his decision was final.
The Northern Lords and Sansa wanted him to stay in the North instead of sailing to Dragonstone, he ignored them and sailed anyway.

This conversation makes me think of what Master Aemon told Jon back in Season 5:
 

 

Great analysis. This is who Jon is in the show. This is who Jon has always been in the show. 

You may not like his decisions because you think it was dumb or don't like Dany, but both his decision and how he acts is true to the character from the show.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

This conversation makes me think of what Master Aemon told Jon back in Season 5:
 

 

Jon as a commander, commanded warriors. But he sought council and communed with his men about what he wanted to do. What he needed to do. he didn't just surprise them with Im doing this and F u. He talked to them, most disagreed, many did agree with his moves. Yes the final say was always his so he did what needed to be done. He didn't NEED to Kneel. Not at all. Command is different then being a king. the politics of dealing with the other houses is different from having soldier who follow your orders under you. Aemon was right about him finding no Joy.

this not really a good comparison. thats like jon deciding to make Mance Raider the Lord Commander of the Nights watch and him stepping down... like the Watch wouldn't have an issue with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, ramla said:


this not really a good comparison. thats like jon deciding to make Mance Raider the Lord Commander of the Nights watch and him stepping down... like the Watch wouldn't have an issue with it.

I disagree.
Jon is still in a power of position after bending the knee to Daenerys, since he would be (is) Warden of the North.
Daenerys is also not an enemy to the northerners, unless they make an enemy of her.

If he decided to make Mance Raider the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, then he wouldn't be in a position of power, and Mance was technically an enemy of the Nights Watch until he died. Of course they would have issues with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

I disagree.
Jon is still in a power of position after bending the knee to Daenerys, since he would be (is) Warden of the North.
Daenerys is also not an enemy to the northerners, unless they make an enemy of her.

If he decided to make Mance Raider the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, then he wouldn't be in a position of power, and Mance was technically an enemy of the Nights Watch until he died. Of course they would have issues with it.

Of course Mance is an extreme example but, Jon Went to treat with Dany and many thought it unwise because, she was technically the Enemy. She even threatened him when he got there. and imprisoned him somewhat.

Jon Warden of the north... and the Northern lords have no say in that either? You assume this is cut and dry. I mean you're probably right about it being that simple on the show. But, logically again, in episode 5 I believe they was just talking to Sansa openly about her taking over rulership. If its just a smooth transition it will be a poor characterization of the hard edge of the north. They are not so ok with any of this. but I fear that for the hope of expedience they will make it a one conversation issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, Jon with his actions actually resembles his real father, Rhaegar? 

Jon's father, Rhaegar, was killed by Gendry's father, Robert. Jon's grandfather was killed by Jaime Lannister. They sure will have things to discuss with Gendry. I doubt they will introduce Cersei as Gendry's mother like one theory is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

So, Jon with his actions actually resembles his real father, Rhaegar? 

Jon's father, Rhaegar, was killed by Gendry's father, Robert. Jon's grandfather was killed by Jaime Lannister. They sure will have things to discuss with Gendry. I doubt they will introduce Cersei as Gendry's mother like one theory is.

Oh yeah! LOL Winterfell is about be the nexus of past grievances LOL Dany and Sam got some talking to do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, ramla said:

But, logically again, in episode 5 I believe they was just talking to Sansa openly about her taking over rulership. If its just a smooth transition it will be a poor characterization of the hard edge of the north.

Aye, they did a good job of portraying the northern lords as windmills. Sansa doing an "OK" job as Lady of Winterfell was enough for them to be impressed by her. Evidently the northern lords are not very rigid in their opinions on who should rule them, but are instead easily swayed.
Ironically, this fact can actually be to Daenerys advantage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Aye, they did a good job of portraying the northern lords as windmills. Sansa doing an "OK" job as Lady of Winterfell was enough for them to be impressed by her. Evidently the northern lords are not very rigid in their opinions on who should rule them, but are instead easily swayed.
Ironically, this fact can actually be to Daenerys advantage.

Lol. Totally. They are all also old men. Dany will say two words and they will be drinking water from her hand like the sheep they are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Well, Targaryens are similar to humans in almost every respect.

And wolves are similar to dogs in almost every respect.

Quote

As for their unique abilities such as heat resistance, it is just as likely possible that Targaryen ancestors lived in really hot surroundings and hence adapted accordingly.

There's a limit to how much human beings can adapt to certain environment. And becoming fire resistant is way over board.

Quote

And it's true, interspecies breeding is possible. But the offsprings usually look significantly different that the parents.

And Jon doesn't look like Targaryen. He's more Stark. Though he doesn't look similar to his mother Lyanna, otherwise people that knew her would've noticed their resemblance.

Quote

Also, most mules are sterile. Offsprings of other interspecies breeding are also mostly sterile, especially males. Male and female children of Targaryens and other humans have been known to be fertile.

Targaryens indeed had lots of children, though many of them died when they were little. In both cases - when they were crossbreeding and interbreeding. For Example King Aerys had 8 children, out of them only three survived thru their infancy - Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys.

Quote

So I see no evidence of Targaryens being a separate species.

Though there's also no indications that they are not different species with humans.

It's like a religion of Invisible Pink Unicorns :D

You can't prove that it doesn't exist, so there is a possibility that it does exist.

"Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of great spiritual power. We know this because they are capable of being invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can't see them."

There is no prove that Varyrians are not representatives of some different from humans species. While there is one fact that attest to the possibility that they are not humans - they are the only ones out of 31 humanoid species on Planetos, that are able to form a bond with dragons. And that bond is not only spiritual, but also influences them physically and genetically.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Megorova said:

There's a limit to how much human beings can adapt to certain environment. And becoming fire resistant is way over board.

And Jon doesn't look like Targaryen. He's more Stark. Though he doesn't look similar to his mother Lyanna, otherwise people that knew her would've noticed their resemblance.

Heat Resistance, as the Targaryens have, is not necessarily Fire Resistance. The Targaryens are heat resistant, not fire resistant. There is a difference.

 

Jon actually does have similarities to Lyana. It's just that most of those similarities are also similarities to Eddard. Jon looks like Arya. Arya looks like Lyanna. By extension, Jon looks like Lyanna. However, and this is important, Jon and Arya look like Ned, too.

Which jumps to mind first, looking like someone who claims to be the father, or looking like a long dead aunt? Me, I'd probably say someone looks like their father, rather than the aunt who's been dead for about as long as they've been alive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, ramla said:

The show doesn't establish why he bent the knee.... She said SHE wanted to destroy the NK. She didn't say, Kneel and I will help defeat the NK!? She even said "are you sure"? lol
And yes according to the show... when it wants to go from point A to point B with Jons character, "Jon just does shit". CTHU  This Jon that just does shit is out of character and out of place.

I don't understand if this is really so ambiguous. Jon needs to drag Dany into this war as soon as possible. She is extremely reluctant to jump into it. Her single statement (vaguely worded as to specifics) that they'll destroy the NK together is not sufficient. Not for what Jon needs. Not for how immediate the danger is. This is made quite claer in 7x07 in the Dragon Pit scene. Daenerys STILL has cold feet about going North unless Cersei agrees to a truce first. When Jon asks her what now? She says that she cannot ignore what she saw north of the wall, but that she cannot pretend that Cersei wouldn't take back half the country if she did. She doesn't give him an unqualified "one way or he other, the threat from the dead must be met first." The facts are

1. Jon needs to bring Daenerys into this war by any (honest, coz he's clearly not willing to lie) means, whether the Northern lords are intelligent enough to realize it or not. They don't have her resources.

2. Daenerys is exceedingly reluctant to drop her mission of conquest, irrespective of what she said in one vulnerable moment. Her statements before and after both show this.

And I'm in the camp that thinks that personally she is in love with Jon at this point. But she is still very wishy washy about committing herself to that war instead of continuing the feud with Cersei. Handing her the North helps to push her more into it (yet she is still conflicted about leaving the rest to Cersei).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Lol. Totally. They are all also old men. Dany will say two words and they will be drinking water from her hand like the sheep they are.

By the time she gets there, the dead will be through the wall and killing everyone. I don't expect much Northern nationalism at that juncture.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Hajk1984 said:

By the time she gets there, the dead will be through the wall and killing everyone. I don't expect much Northern nationalism at that juncture.

100%. No time for any of it as Jon likes to say

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×