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Snormund

Can we talk about Jon?

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18 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Speaking of Jon, do you think Mel knows his secret identity?

I have wondered this for some time. Since the moment she first laid eyes on Jon, you get the sense she knows something. Perhaps collectively by the time she leaves she may have figured it out ?

 

Be interested to hear other peoples views on this too.

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On 05.09.2017 at 10:09 PM, MinscS2 said:

Jon is still in a power of position after bending the knee to Daenerys, since he would be (is) Warden of the North.
Daenerys is also not an enemy to the northerners, unless they make an enemy of her.

Jon went to Dragonstone, bend the knee, became Warden of the North, and convinced Daenerys Targaryen to support North in upcoming battles. Now lets imagine that he haven't done any of that.

After arriving to Dragonston Dany went to King's Landing, defeated Cersei, and became Queen of Seven Kingdoms. Sooner or later she will demand from northeners to bend the knee.

What Jon accomplished by choosing right timing, and bending the knee willingly, is that now northeners are Queen's allies. Instead of becoming her unwilling slaves, or dying for refusal to submit. And to be an equal partner, is better than being a subordinate. So even if at the beginning, some northern lords could critisize Jon's decision, eventually they will realise, that he has chosen option the most benefiting for the North.

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On 8/28/2017 at 0:30 PM, Snormund said:

This is the 3rd and final time I attempt making a thread discussing what happened to his character. I believe this is well worth a thread. 

 

Does it not bother anyone else the way Jon bent the knee to Daenerys after making a big deal out of his loyalty and duty to keeping the North independent? Especially considering she treated him rather shabbily all season, to say the least. She has done nothing to earn his undying love and devotion besides being beautiful. This is completely out of character for Jon in my book. He is someone established as one who doesn't make decisions based on his lustful impulses but now he sells out the North because of them? What. I think he acted incredibly foolishly and selfishly and out of character regarding Dany  

I absolutely loved the entire Dany/Jon storyline.  It has been some of Emilia's best work on the show.  She didn't treat him shabbily all season at all.  She's been smitten with Jon since she met with him to give him dragonglass.  She wanted him to bend the knee but she got over all that and offered her armies and dragons without any bending the knee first business.

Of course then he offers to make her "his Queen" anyway.  That scene was just great.  Why wouldn't he pledge himself to her at that point?  He's in love with her and she's in love with.  She's sitting bedside waiting on him to awaken?  Yeah.  She's all in.  And he's fallen for her as well so he proposes......he would have gotten down on that knee to propose but he was hurt.

She's going to be his queen.

He's pledged himself to her.

The show has this theme.....you don't choose who you love....and this blends well with that.  We'll see how much drama it causes him with northern lords but on the whole he's made out like a bandit.  Dragonglass + a massive army + the Dragon Queen in bed.

Win-win-win.

Jon's killing it. 

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He seemingly has forgotten about Ghost too

Ghost is a dog and he is enjoying himself in and around Winterfell. Jon has been off playing with dragons.  Give him a break.

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A question I have: as a Melisandre fan I thought Jon's treatment of Theon (who betrayed his family and killed Ser Rodrik) compared to Mel (who resurrected  him and killed someone he never met, admittedly an innocent child. Theon killed innocent kids too tho) hypocritical and unfair. Does anyone else think this or is it just me?

I don't understand this complaint.  Jon banished Mel from the north and as far as I can tell he hasn't invited Theon back up north either.  He didn't kill Melisandre and he didn't kill Theon.  Same punishment basically?  Not much of one.

Melisandre did terrible things but she saved Jon.  Theon did terrible things but he saved Sansa.  Jon lets both live.  Feels really consistent to me.

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I would appreciate others feedback 

 

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On 06.09.2017 at 1:22 AM, Kytheros said:

Heat Resistance, as the Targaryens have, is not necessarily Fire Resistance. The Targaryens are heat resistant, not fire resistant. There is a difference.

Have you really watched the show? :blink:

Dany's title is self explanatory - The Unburnt.

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14 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Jon went to Dragonstone, bend the knee, became Warden of the North, and convinced Daenerys Targaryen to support North in upcoming battles. Now lets imagine that he haven't done any of that.

After arriving to Dragonston Dany went to King's Landing, defeated Cersei, and became Queen of Seven Kingdoms. Sooner or later she will demand from northeners to bend the knee.

What Jon accomplished by choosing right timing, and bending the knee willingly, is that now northeners are Queen's allies. Instead of becoming her unwilling slaves, or dying for refusal to submit. And to be an equal partner, is better than being a subordinate. So even if at the beginning, some northern lords could critisize Jon's decision, eventually they will realise, that he has chosen option the most benefiting for the North.

:agree:

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23 hours ago, Hajk1984 said:

By the time she gets there, the dead will be through the wall and killing everyone. I don't expect much Northern nationalism at that juncture.

^_^ Also if she will arrive with her dragons just in time to save them, they will be so thankfull, that they will march to King's Landing, beat the crap out of Cersei, and will bring her crown to Dany, as a token of their gratitude.

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12 hours ago, Hajk1984 said:

The Ice Viserion was unexpected and probably accelerated things more than Jon expected.

Actually even though when Ice dragon broke down section of the Wall, NK's army was able to pass beyond the Wall thru created opening faster, than if they were going thru open gates, still saved up time difference wasn't that significant.

In S4E9 giant lifted Castle Black's gates in less than a few minutes. NK's giants are able to open the gates in about the same amount of time that dragon spent on melting the Wall.

Even though NK got himself a fast ride, it didn't made his army any faster. They reached the Wall at the same time, they were going to reach it, even without NK flying on the dragon.

Also I think that if Jon and Co didn't went beyond the Wall, and thus didn't caused Undead Army to chase after them, then they would've arrived to the gates of Eastwatch about two days earlier than they did.

Wights wasted entire night surrounding freezing lake. Then after the battle, NK went to retrive his giants and chains. Then they spent some time at dragging dead dragon out of that lake. And only then they continued their march towards Eastwatch.

So actually Jon didn't accelerated things, on the contrary - he slowed NK's advancement for a few days.

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6 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

None of this explains why he didn't stay at the Wall to defend it. 

Because as a Lord Commander, he sent ravens to lords all over 7K, and asked them to sent him reinforcements to replentish NW. But they didn't, because they all were to busy with their own political fights against Cersei and each other. So he had to abandon his post on the Wall, and personally go there, and convince them that the Death is coming, and that they should drop their petty squabbles, and unite their forces to defent Westeros from NK. That's also the reason why he went to Dragonstone.

To ask for help.

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2 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Because as a Lord Commander, he sent ravens to lords all over 7K, and asked them to sent him reinforcements to replentish NW. But they didn't, because they all were to busy with their own political fights against Cersei and each other. So he had to abandon his post on the Wall, and personally go there, and convince them that the Death is coming, and that they should drop their petty squabbles, and unite their forces to defent Westeros from NK. That's also the reason why he went to Dragonstone.

To ask for help.

And by leaving he secured dragonglass, dragons and another massive army.

Compare that to what he'd have accomplished by staying put in WF to do whatever he'd be doing while sitting in WF.  I presume it'd be about what Lady Sansa did in his absence.  So, not exactly a lot.

Leaving to garner support was the only choice and it turned out to be the right one too.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Have you really watched the show? :blink:

Dany's title is self explanatory - The Unburnt.

That's a show! change, and even in-show, appears to be Daenerys only, and not applicable to the other Targaryens. Also, the only times that Daenerys has been Unburnt on the show - Drogo's pyre and the Temple of the Dosh Kaleen - there were other people being burned alive, and Daenerys was intentionally burning them alive, so it could still be because blood magic is going on, providing temporary immunity to the specific fire, and not an all the time immunity to fire.

Other Targaryens presumably still only have innate Heat Resistance/Tolerance, since lots of them have died by fire.

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3 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

And by leaving he secured dragonglass, dragons and another massive army, and a wife.

Fixed. ;)

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12 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

All these issues are a consequence of D & D working backwards.  They have said as much in interviews- they wanted to end the season with the Night King blowing down the Wall with a dragon.  This is why episode 6 made no sense- they couldn't figure out the plot mechanics to get Dany and her dragons North of the Wall in a believable way.  The "detour to KL" was actually the logical consequence of the absurdity of the wight hunt- they had to justify it somehow with this summit at the dragon pit.  

I agree with most of what you’re saying here, but again, Jon seemed to think that this was a serious enough threat that it warranted him heading back to the North as soon as possible. Yet after the Wight hunt expedition is over this no longer appears to be the case, and he’s suddenly perfectly willing to spend several weeks in the south even though the situation at EW is pretty much unchanged as far as he knows (the NK and his army is still outside EW even though it’s somewhat reduces compared to before).

Yes, I get that the North needs someone to represent them at the Dragonpit (even though it was mostly between Team Cersei and Team Dany anyway), but I just don’t see why Jon has to go there himself, and considering that he has brought no army to KL, and is in charge of the kingdom that is first in line to get hit by the AotD, I’m sure that people would also understand his personal absence.

Of course, the show runners had JOn go there anyway because they wanted to stuff as many characters as possible into the Dragonpit, and so that he could later partake in boatsex.

12 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Everything you said is fair, but again, we need to see how it plays out.  Personally, I think Jon bending the knee makes good sense within the context of the story they told this year, and could continue to tell next year.  And that story is one of both Jon and Dany being emotionally compromised due to their romantic feelings for each other.  I think they've laid some groundwork for this that could bear fruit and make this story make sense with legitimate consequences.  I look specifically to LF's aside to Sansa implying Dany is using her beauty to win over Jon through marriage and Tyrion's look during the boatsex scene- this really is a through-line from the Cave scene onwards this entire season of both Dany and Jon falling for each other and not being able to make good decisions because of it.  

It does indeed look like that this is the direction they’re going, but I can't say that I'm very optimistic that it will play out in a satisfying manner next season.

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12 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Not really. You will find a lot of posters on this board who loves Cersei and/or the Nightking and want either of them to win in the end.

Apples and oranges. In my experience the people who root for those two do so mostly because they are a fan of the character or for sh*ts & giggles, and not because they believe that they would make for a good ruler for the people of Westeros. Heck, I’m kind of rooting for the NK myself, but that’s mostly because there are so few among the living characters whom I still care about at this point (on top of my head I can think of the Hound, Tormund, Beric, Edd, the dragons and the direwolfs…).

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6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Because as a Lord Commander, he sent ravens to lords all over 7K, and asked them to sent him reinforcements to replentish NW. But they didn't, because they all were to busy with their own political fights against Cersei and each other. So he had to abandon his post on the Wall, and personally go there, and convince them that the Death is coming, and that they should drop their petty squabbles, and unite their forces to defent Westeros from NK. That's also the reason why he went to Dragonstone.

To ask for help.

This is why he left originally and that is all fine - getting allies is important. But that was when the NK was still far away and his attack just something that was going to happen down the line. At that point taking time to gather resources makes sense. 

What I'm referring to is the moment when they have just escaped the NK. At this point the attack on the Wall is imminent - the NK is mere hours away. The living will never have such an advantage against his army than at the Wall due to its defensive capabilities so engaging him at the Wall to at least try to reduce his numbers is crucial. This is the time you fight with the army you have because no other army is available. Even if they genuinely persuaded Cersei to ally with them at the Dragonpit the troops from the South would take weeks to get the the Wall, well after the NK's attack. There's also no need for him to go to KL personally, especially after he's bent the knee. He's abandoned the Wall to try to win Cersei as ally, a sketchy proposition at best, when he knew the NK was about to attack. It's like leaving your troop on the eve of battle.

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18 hours ago, Megorova said:

Actually the part that is confusing for you, is also one of the reasons why he kneeled. When they met, she demanded from him to kneel, and practically took him hostage, until he will either decisively and for good will decline to submit (and most likely will be roasted afterward), or he will do what she asked. But she gave him dragonglass, even before he made any decisions or promises. Her gift was a gest of goodwill, even though she wasn't getting anything in return for it. So when she agreed to fight with him against NK, he also made a gest of goodwill, by naming Dany his Queen.

After they spend more time, getting to know each other, Jon realised that she's a good person, and that he can trust her, and he can rely on her. While Stannis was a bad person, add to that cruel, saddist, and pyromaniac that burned living people. Dany also killed people with fire, but it was during battle. Or if not during battle, she gave them choice, either no kneel, or die. You can argue that Stannis did the same to Mance Reider, i.e. gave him the same choice, but their situations are totally different.

Stannis' claims over Iron Throne, however substantiated, don't give him any right to command wildlings, cause they are not citizens of Seven Kingdoms. While Randill Tarly was a subordinate of Tyrells. And Olena Tyrell pledged Reach to Dany. So Dany had a legal right to demand submission from Tarlys.

1. Comparing Dany's gift of dragon glass as goodwill (cost nothing and irrelevant to everyone on the island and had been ignored for centuries) to Jon kneeling as goodwill (lost title as KotN, arguably would lose confidence from certain Northern lords, and made him the King that kneeled [which is a title that stuck with torrhen since he did it regardless of whether it was a good decision of bad]) is kind of a ridiculous comparison.  My only issue is Jon's whole intent of kneeling to Dany was because it was necessary to "save and unite the North."  But there was arguably more of a basis to kneel to Stannis in order to "save and unite the North" for the war to come.

2. And that is all perspective.  Dany is a good person depending on what side you are on. Dany's side (shes great and frees the enslaved and is working to make everything better) and not Dany's side (she is literally upturning the norm/culture that has worked for centuries [slavers bay but I'm not arguing slavery is a good thing] or is causing more chaos [westeros was at peace largely after War of 5 Kings]).  I mean, Stannis gave choice of not being burned (ie convert to my faith or burn).  The same was done with Dany (convert to my vision of the world or my side of the war or burn).  No argument that Stannis was cruel but he wasn't overall a bad person.  obviously burning people and killing your daughter was bad but Stannis was probably the only main character (outside of Ned and John) that cared about the rule of law in a consistent manner and later turned into a religious fanatic.  I would say that is what made him seem like a cruel man, instead of say raping individuals, murdering/torturing lower lords and you know attempting to assassinate people but that's just me.

3. Just to sum up how that argument is ridiculous.  Stannis was fighting for crown but not lawful king of Westeros [ie had the crown at that time] and since Wildlings weren't citizens of Westeros he had no control nor did he have a right to demand control.  But Tarly swears loyalty to Warden of the Reach, which is subordinate to his loyalty to the ruling King of Westeros but Dany has a legal right to demand submission.  Just confused how Stannis, literally in the same position as Dany except with a better claim [ie oldest brother of the recently deceased king], can't claim control over an invading wildling army that entered his borders but Dany, an invading force, can now claim title over a Lord that has sworn loyalty to the King above his warden b/c the warden of his kingdom had?   

 

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I'll comment only to this small part:

3 hours ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

1. Comparing Dany's gift of dragon glass as goodwill (cost nothing and irrelevant to everyone on the island and had been ignored for centuries)

Doesn't matter what it's price was for her, what matters is that for Jon it was priceless. And she gave it to him - GREATEST WEAPON AGAINST WHITE WALKERS - and didn't get anything in return for her gift.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

I'll comment only to this small part:

Doesn't matter what it's price was for her, what matters is that for Jon it was priceless. And she gave it to him - GREATEST WEAPON AGAINST WHITE WALKERS - and didn't get anything in return for her gift.

Except and this is the major crux of the issue, jon needs the Dragonglass to not only arm the Northerners but to have afighting chance against a threat that is coming for everyone in westeros. Dany has no use for the Dragonglass and it is not like Jon is using it to make weapons to use against her. It is for a specific enemy.

Jon does not care about the Iron Throne because why should he? His family and countrymen have twice now been betrayed by those who sit on the throne so why should he kneel to her? Why should the North bow to her? Because she has dragons and a massive army? While the dragons are a threat her army isn't ready for the North during winter time. Book!Stannis' army is from westeros and they got fucked over by what the Northmen called a small blizzard. The Dothraki and Unsullied are not ready for the North. Those Dothraki horses are especially not ready.

Jon should have proposed to dany, not bent the knee. 

Of course things would be better if Dany had a general who isn't actively protecting the sibling he is supposed to hate. And if Jon was actually a better administrator and not just a battle commander. 

 

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3 hours ago, The Golden Wolf said:

Except and this is the major crux of the issue, jon needs the Dragonglass to not only arm the Northerners but to have afighting chance against a threat that is coming for everyone in westeros. Dany has no use for the Dragonglass and it is not like Jon is using it to make weapons to use against her. It is for a specific enemy.

Jon does not care about the Iron Throne because why should he? His family and countrymen have twice now been betrayed by those who sit on the throne so why should he kneel to her? Why should the North bow to her? Because she has dragons and a massive army? While the dragons are a threat her army isn't ready for the North during winter time. Book!Stannis' army is from westeros and they got fucked over by what the Northmen called a small blizzard. The Dothraki and Unsullied are not ready for the North. Those Dothraki horses are especially not ready.

Jon should have proposed to dany, not bent the knee. 

Of course things would be better if Dany had a general who isn't actively protecting the sibling he is supposed to hate. And if Jon was actually a better administrator and not just a battle commander. 

 

He's going to propose to Dany.

His calling her "my Queen" almost sounded like a proposal.

His "I've pledged myself" was more of the writers basically beating us over the head with a marriage is coming.

They've fallen in love and will get married and have babies.  His bending the knee will turn out to mean nothing in the big scheme.  They'll rule together as equals.

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Unless Dany's supposed pregnancy is the biggest red herring ever, I too find it very likely that they will marry. Jon won't father a bastard.

The fact that no one has actually suggested that they should get married yet, despite the logic of it, leads me to further believe that it will happen. It's a classic TV-trope. If people (Tyrion, Davos) started suggesting it back in episode 3 (or even season 6), then no one would be surprised if they ended up marrying. But by not mentioning it, the show keeps us in "suspense".

Edit: As for the dragonglass-discussion. It doesn't matter that it's useless for Dany. What matters is that it's priceless for Jon and it was something he badly wanted and needed. Her not only giving it to him, but also providing him resources and men to speed up the process while asking for nothing in return is a massive sign of good will. She could've just as easily said "nah" when Jon asked for it, or demanded something in return, but she didn't. Jon's reaction when she tells him he can have it without him having to do anything in return says it all: he can barely believe her.
 

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