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Can we talk about Jon?

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Oh Jon, Jon, Jon...

I don't know why I'm surprised he ended up bending the knee to Daenerys. I always knew they'd end up on the same team, but I didn't think he'd relinquish the North at a point where he had no reason to relinquish it. Daenerys saw the army of the dead herself, and lost Viserion as a result. There was no doubt she'd be on board to protect Westeros from invasion, especially if she wants the loyalty of the people and remaining houses. But then again, Jon never wanted to be King, so he got what he wanted in a way, and some sex as a bonus. I just can't see this ending well for either of them now, and I think Westeros will suffer for it.

Edited by tinka10

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5 hours ago, tinka10 said:

Oh Jon, Jon, Jon...

I don't know why I'm surprised he ended up bending the knee to Daenerys. I always knew they'd end up on the same team, but I didn't think he'd relinquish the North at a point where he had no reason to relinquish it. Daenerys saw the army of the dead herself, and lost Viserion as a result. There was no doubt she'd be on board to protect Westeros from invasion, especially if she wants the loyalty of the people and remaining houses. But then again, Jon never wanted to be King, so he got what he wanted in a way, and some sex as a bonus. I just can't see this ending well for either of them now, and I think Westeros will suffer for it.

It could easily end well for them. There is enough foreshadowing and developed character traits where things ending well would be quite natural and organic to the story. 

Will it end well? Hmm. Not sure. There is enough potential foreshadowing for their deaths and the whole Nissa Nissa thing that it could certainly go in a more dark direction. But then again, George has said the Lord of the Rings is his idea of a bittersweet ending so that makes me thing we won't get tragedy here.

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8 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Unless Dany's supposed pregnancy is the biggest red herring ever, I too find it very likely that they will marry. Jon won't father a bastard.

The fact that no one has actually suggested that they should get married yet, despite the logic of it, leads me to further believe that it will happen. It's a classic TV-trope. If people (Tyrion, Davos) started suggesting it back in episode 3 (or even season 6), then no one would be surprised if they ended up marrying. But by not mentioning it, the show keeps us in "suspense".

Edit: As for the dragonglass-discussion. It doesn't matter that it's useless for Dany. What matters is that it's priceless for Jon and it was something he badly wanted and needed. Her not only giving it to him, but also providing him resources and men to speed up the process while asking for nothing in return is a massive sign of good will. She could've just as easily said "nah" when Jon asked for it, or demanded something in return, but she didn't. Jon's reaction when she tells him he can have it without him having to do anything in return says it all: he can barely believe her.
 

If George goes with the whole fire wight idea and Jon is a fire wight, can Jon even get Dany pregnant? although they clearly had sex so blood had to have been flowing somewhere. 

Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing.

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2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

If George goes with the whole fire wight idea and Jon is a fire wight, can Jon even get Dany pregnant? although they clearly had sex so blood had to have been flowing somewhere. 

Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing.

I'm not really buying the fire wight-theory myself, it feels like an intentional misdirection from GRRM.
Jon may very well be a Fire Wight (whatever that is), but if he is, then being a Fire Wight works differently in the show than how he stated it would in that interview: Jon's heart is beating, his blood is flowing in his veins (we see him bleed and we can assume that he as you point out, had an erection), he eats, breathes, sleeps, etc. He's even freezing after falling into the cold water. 
All his bodily organs seems to function still, which should include his genitalia. :P

 

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3 hours ago, jcmontea said:

If George goes with the whole fire wight idea and Jon is a fire wight, can Jon even get Dany pregnant?

Don't underestimate his abilities ^_^

10 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

I'm not really buying the fire wight-theory myself, it feels like an intentional misdirection from GRRM.

I also think that this fire wight is bullsh*t. Uncle Benjin was a walking rotting corpse, if Jon is not exactly a living being, then he may not last long enough to defeat NK and his Undead Army, he will decomposs sooner than that.

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37 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I also think that this fire wight is bullsh*t. Uncle Benjin was a walking rotting corpse, if Jon is not exactly a living being, then he may not last long enough to defeat NK and his Undead Army, he will decomposs sooner than that.

:wacko: Eww... lol. :D

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1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

I'm not really buying the fire wight-theory myself, it feels like an intentional misdirection from GRRM.
Jon may very well be a Fire Wight (whatever that is), but if he is, then being a Fire Wight works differently in the show than how he stated it would in that interview: Jon's heart is beating, his blood is flowing in his veins (we see him bleed and we can assume that he as you point out, had an erection), he eats, breathes, sleeps, etc. He's even freezing after falling into the cold water. 
All his bodily organs seems to function still, which should include his genitalia. :P

 

This reminds me of the Buffy the Vampire Slayer debate over whether vampires could even have sex :D.  In short, I don't think it's something we should think about too much or look into too much.  It's simply story-telling and you can either go with it or not.

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16 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

He's going to propose to Dany.

His calling her "my Queen" almost sounded like a proposal.

His "I've pledged myself" was more of the writers basically beating us over the head with a marriage is coming.

They've fallen in love and will get married and have babies.  His bending the knee will turn out to mean nothing in the big scheme.  They'll rule together as equals.

A part of me is okay with this as it would finally fulfill the broken marriage pact of Fire and Ice between houses Stark and Targaryen from long officially. Sure on the show Lyanna and Rhaegar did just that but they actually tore the realm apart instead of fully bringing it together. 

 

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14 hours ago, jcmontea said:

It could easily end well for them. There is enough foreshadowing and developed character traits where things ending well would be quite natural and organic to the story. 

Will it end well? Hmm. Not sure. There is enough potential foreshadowing for their deaths and the whole Nissa Nissa thing that it could certainly go in a more dark direction. But then again, George has said the Lord of the Rings is his idea of a bittersweet ending so that makes me thing we won't get tragedy here.

Instead of Jon and/or Daenerys outright dying in the end, I'd lean towards a more Arthurian-esque ending for one or both of them, although that really fits Jon better than it fits Daenerys.

 

14 hours ago, jcmontea said:

If George goes with the whole fire wight idea and Jon is a fire wight, can Jon even get Dany pregnant? although they clearly had sex so blood had to have been flowing somewhere. 

Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing.

11 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

I'm not really buying the fire wight-theory myself, it feels like an intentional misdirection from GRRM.
Jon may very well be a Fire Wight (whatever that is), but if he is, then being a Fire Wight works differently in the show than how he stated it would in that interview: Jon's heart is beating, his blood is flowing in his veins (we see him bleed and we can assume that he as you point out, had an erection), he eats, breathes, sleeps, etc. He's even freezing after falling into the cold water. 
All his bodily organs seems to function still, which should include his genitalia. :P

 

Yeah, no, Jon's not going to be brought back by Mel the way Beric was in the books.

For that matter, even on the show Jon was brought back very differently from the way Thoros brought back Beric.

 

Besides, if in the books, Jon wasn't killed outright, Val is right there and probably can and probably will try save his life. And I'd give decent odds that Jon's body isn't going to be too far gone to for her to heal, and even if he's normally be too far gone for his soul to return, hanging out in Ghost gives his soul an opportunity to return, albeit changed by his experiences.

Alternatively, if Jon isn't killed outright Mel could probably do a fire-healing on him like Moqorro did to Victarion.

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On 29/08/2017 at 3:30 AM, Snormund said:

A question I have: as a Melisandre fan I thought Jon's treatment of Theon (who betrayed his family and killed Ser Rodrik) compared to Mel (who resurrected  him and killed someone he never met, admittedly an innocent child. Theon killed innocent kids too tho) hypocritical and unfair. Does anyone else think this or is it just me?

I wholeheartedly agree, when he told Theon that he was a Stark as well, i actually said out loud "I'll bet that's a real comfort to all the people that he killed"

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14 minutes ago, Livesundersink said:

I wholeheartedly agree, when he told Theon that he was a Stark as well, i actually said out loud "I'll bet that's a real comfort to all the people that he killed"

I think there's an important difference between the two though:

Theon has suffered (badly) for his crimes and sort of already been punished. He's also shown remorse and regret over what he's done in the past. If this was the modern world, we'd say that as of season 7, he's served his jail time and is now free man.

Getting banished was Melissandre's only and first punishment, and except for the comment she made to Varys about "having made some terrible mistakes", she doesn't really seem regretful of all the horrors she's caused.

One could also argue that Mel's lists of crimes is far longer than that of Theons; He betrayed Rob, killed ser Rodrick and some farmboys. 
His actions lead to further horrors (Maester Luwins death, the death of the farmboys parents, the burning of WF) but they where consequences of his actions, and not something he himself had planned or even wanted.

Mel on the other hand, has the blood of way more people on her hands; Kin(g) slaying when she murdered Renly, all the people she burned at the stakes at Dragonstone for no real reason and Shireen. She wanted to kill Gendry. Just as with Theon her actions had consequences that she didn't plan for or want, but yet again her's resulted in way more deaths; Stannis and the remainder of his army in the north.

I'd say Mel got off the hook easily when she (only) got banished, not to mention that the only crime Davos wanted to convict her of was the death of Shireen. She can easily be held accountable for so much more.

With all that, I actually sort like Melissandre (for the most part anyway). She's a character for where the ends justify the means, and I'm sure she's gonna have a big part to play in S8 before dying. Perhaps she'll do something that will atone for most of the horrors she's committed.

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On 9/6/2017 at 1:30 AM, Maid So Fair said:

Ironically, the main reason for that is the fact that in the show both her and Jon abandoned the Wall and the North to their own devices and instead of staying at Eastwatch to face the NK - who they knew was within a running distance- they buggered off to KL to chat to Cersei as if time wasn't of the essence. Frankly, neither of them deserves the North's loyalty at this point.

And yet...no one in this thread has considered that this explains why Jon bent the knee.

Dany seemed to care about Cersei. Jon does not. See later: Jon refusing to make deals with her.

In my mind he bent the knee to get her to keep her promise, as Dany was clearly still invested in going to meet with Cersei, and Jon had no idea if Dany would still agree to help if Cersei didn't agree to the ceasefire.

Jon knows a wight dragon is on the loose. If Dany has already agreed to help, then the ceasefire is a waste of time. But she made the unilateral decision to sail there anyway. Jon is effectively still her prisoner, again.

This explains his speech about promises and lies in KL - he's subtly talking about his wish for her to keep her promise, despite whatever Cersei does.

 

Edited by Guest

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On 8/5/2018 at 11:56 PM, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

And yet...no one in this thread has considered that this explains why Jon bent the knee.

Dany seemed to care about Cersei. Jon does not. See later: Jon refusing to make deals with her.

In my mind he bent the knee to get her to keep her promise, as Dany was clearly still invested in going to meet with Cersei, and Jon had no idea if Dany would still agree to help if Cersei didn't agree to the ceasefire.

Jon knows a wight dragon is on the loose. If Dany has already agreed to help, then the ceasefire is a waste of time. But she made the unilateral decision to sail there anyway. Jon is effectively still her prisoner, again.

This explains his speech about promises and lies in KL - he's subtly talking about his wish for her to keep her promise, despite whatever Cersei does.

 

I agree with you.  Jon is unconcious, and wakes up on the boat, headed south, with Dany hovering (AFTER she just saw the NK and the WW).  Clearly she is more invested in the Iron Throne than fighting the NK army.  She says she will help him (but they are still going south on the boat when she says this).  This is when Jon actually starts to look like he's into Dany  - the beach leaving before the Wighthunt he looks eager to be gone and not interested.  In the Dragonpit parley, after Cersei leaves, he asks Dany what happens now.  She says she cant forget the night king BUT she can't pretend that Cersei won't take back what Dany has won.  Jon says "we're fucked" and they smile and flirt about her inability to have children. Jon says maybe her source isn't reliable.  Jaime also talks to Cersei about the importance of fighting NK to save the realm for their child.  Basically, we have 2 men telling the 2 queens to think of the NK in context of saving the world for children/possible children, is how I'm seeing that.  If we also apply the phrase "everything before the word but is horseshit", then not only did Jon say, "I'd bend the knee, but..."  and we have Dany saying "I can't forget about the NK, but..."  As clumsy as S5-S7 may have felt at times, I think the show is setting up S8 to make the viewer see a number of foreshadowed twists/betrayals, and really be torn about multiple characters we like/care about, being on opposite sides/playing the game.

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It's only made stupider by the fact that he bent the knee after Daenerys told him she would help him fight anyway. Jon basically gave the North away for free. But saying that this is Show Jon Snow, he isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. 

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On 8/19/2018 at 3:56 PM, EloImFizzy said:

It's only made stupider by the fact that he bent the knee after Daenerys told him she would help him fight anyway. Jon basically gave the North away for free. But saying that this is Show Jon Snow, he isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. 

No, he gave her the North and it still wasn't enough.

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I think that he main reason why the whole kneeling was written that way was that:

1) He couldn't kneel before Dany promised him to help, because it would make Dany look lke an arrogant and ignorant bitch, and the writers couldn't allow that.

2) After that promise there was no need for kneeling, so it didn't make any sense, on the contrary, it caused several problems, some of which could be foreseen (like what the North will think of it...)

But it resulted in one thing, and I'm pretty sure it was the main reason why it was done like that: It gave the opportunity to write a Lena Headey - Peter Dinklage scene. They wouldn't have met if Jon's kneeling hadn't caused problems. Tyrion would have never agreed to go to see Cercei alone.

3) And there may be a third reason as well: the writers knew that at one point Jon has to kneel, just to make the reveal of his parentage more sensational (to the characters) We don't know how it will play out, so I'm not so sure about that.

 

Anyway my main critisims about the show is how they basically butchered Jon't character. He needs to be stupid to make Sansa look smarter (Arya acted stupid too, for the same reason). He does stupid shit all the time (to move the plot forward...) while he is supposed to be pretty smart about politics according to the books.

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Dany's "promise" didnt mean shit. Its why he bent the knee. To circumvent having Cersei decide everything. 

Here's basically what Dany did: starving man asks Dany for assistance, Dany says he has to swear fealty first. They're at an impass. Finally, after starving man bends over backwards to accommodate her while trying to keep his dignity, she says "Yes! I will help you...As soon as my political opponent agrees to suspend the campaign!" Then she marches off in the opposite direction of where help is needed. Starving man falls to his knees - PLEASE JUST HELP, I WILL GIVE YOU WHAT YOU WANTED, ISNT THAT ENOUGH.

Edited by Guest

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He also never bent the knee officially. Something is up with him. He may be pulling a Sansa, pretending to be dumb to deal with his prisoner situation (which never went away IMO).

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