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Can we talk about Jon?

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3 minutes ago, Armand Gargalen said:

I pretty much agree. 

Also, Jon leaving his NW vows just because a technical loophole is terribly out of character.  The writers still had the cheek to make him quote his vows last episode, though.

And to say that he doesn't break oaths in this one.

 

18 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

I do think there's every chance that Jon will end up rejecting his Targaryen heritage. It's also possible that he'll abdicate the northern throne.

This would make for a good continuation of the journey you're describing. The final phase could consist of him being offered all the titles in the world but rejecting them to live the way he thinks is right. 

I guess it's possible, but I don't really see how that plays out logistically or effectively. And moreover, I still hate it when TV shows regress a character from their growth, just to let them get it back again. At best, it's bad pacing.

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I agree. 

Jon is my favourite character, so it pains me to say it, but post episode 2 he has been portrayed as a terrible leader, let alone ruler. He was not a king once in any of his scenes with Daenerys. He was just an individual with a fancy title, to give him equal footing with Daenerys.

The main problem is that the Northerners were alienated from him and vice versa. Yes, Daenerys proved herself to him, but only to him. There should have been other Northerners to back him up. This was an important diplomatic mission for the North. Where were his soldiers to protect him? Why did he not bring a Northern Lord or two to give him counsel? He only had Davos, apparently (who is not a northerner). He never sent a raven to Sansa once, or even stopped by Winterfell on his way to Eastwatch and then back South again. He pledged himself to Daenerys because of his feelings for her, as opposed to the politics of the situation. The North was not involved in this at all. Only him. 

He also went on a reckless mission that he knew could get him killed, but failed to tell the North or set up any plans for what should happen if he dies (e.g. will, heir, demands), which could potentially plunge the North into instability. 

He was King in name alone this season. When you view him as a representative over thousands of people, instead of an individual, then he is a selfish and reckless jerk, who does not take his position seriously. 

It is a real shame because in the books, Jon's ADWD arc showed that he has the wits and pragmatic skillset to be a good ruler. He is capable of being harsh and manipulative when he needs to be (see: forcing Gilly to switch her kid with Mance's) and he is capable of negotiating with a ruler by going toe to toe with them and getting a good deal himself (see: his dealings with Stannis). Instead, the show has stripped away his political nuance and reduced him to underdog morally pure Ned Stark junior, with wicked sword skills. He is supposedly a worthy King because he is a good guy and impressive individual, as opposed to actually being an effective leader that makes the best use out of the situation he is in and the resources around him. 

Edited by ~DarkHorse~

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13 minutes ago, ramla said:

Only thing is, he already had her help. She chose to kill the NK. She didn't implore Jon to end the knee so that she could.
 

And yes too the Stannis bit. Stannis was going to legitimatize him but, nope... His vows.

 

No I understand that she was already willing to help but I guess in his mind it made sense to be united (ie under one Queen) when facing the NK rather than two separate armies simply working together.

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4 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

And to say that he doesn't break oaths in this one.

Spot on. 

The showrunners apparently decided that Jon is the main hero, and deprived his character of any internal conflict, to the point that grey areas, which make for interesting characters, are blatantly lampshaded or ignored.

Instead, they feed us with a cardboard hero and some knee bending faux drama.

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7 minutes ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

No I understand that she was already willing to help but I guess in his mind it made sense to be united (ie under one Queen) when facing the NK rather than two separate armies simply working together.

That would make sense... for somebody who's a follower. Or somebody whos not basically leading everything at the moment. Jon pretty much moves the "others" plot. Every battle decision is his. "Tormund, man the wall... Dany will ride with us to show we are united... This is the only war"  All Jon. He needs her dragons, but she offered them freely for 1. For 2, he could have held out until at least talking to Sansa and the leaders in the north. He knows that's going to cause a conflict, and he didn't have too. He knows they don't have time for a conflict like that... He could have held his tongue and then decided it when he got to the north. He still could have stood firm against Cersei... he's a King (Was). I agree with what you are saying as a possible reason... its just not a situation thats well written with regard to who Jon is.

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21 minutes ago, ~DarkHorse~ said:

I agree. 

Jon is my favourite character, so it pains me to say it, but post episode 2 he has been portrayed as a terrible leader, let alone ruler. He was not a king once in any of his scenes with Daenerys. He was just an individual with a fancy title, to give him equal footing with Daenerys.

The main problem is that the Northerners were alienated from him and vice versa. Yes, Daenerys proved herself to him, but only to him. There should have been other Northerners to back him up. This was an important diplomatic mission for the North. Where were his soldiers to protect him? Why did he not bring a Northern Lord or two to give him counsel? He only had Davos, apparently (who is not a northerner). He never sent a raven to Sansa once, or even stopped by Winterfell on his way to Eastwatch and then back South again. He pledged himself to Daenerys because of his feelings for her, as opposed to the politics of the situation. The North was not involved in this at all. Only him. 

He also went on a reckless mission that he knew could get him killed, but failed to tell the North or set up any plans for what should happen if he dies (e.g. will, heir, demands), which could potentially plunge the North into instability. 

He was King in name alone this season. When you view him as a representative over thousands of people, instead of an individual, then he is a selfish and reckless jerk, who does not take his position seriously. 

It is a real shame because in the books, Jon's ADWD arc showed that he has the wits and pragmatic skillset to be a good ruler. He is capable of being harsh and manipulative when he needs to be (see: forcing Gilly to switch her kid with Mance's) and he is capable of negotiating with a ruler by going toe to toe with them and getting a good deal himself (see: his dealings with Stannis). Instead, the show has stripped away his political nuance and reduced him to underdog morally pure Ned Stark junior, with wicked sword skills. He is supposedly a worthy King because he is a good guy and impressive individual, as opposed to actually being an effective leader that makes the best use out of the situation he is in and the resources around him. 

This is a wonderful post. Accurately portraying who Jon Snow is. Loved his dealings with Stannis. He and Stannis are parallels in a way. He and Robert and Jon and Rob. Jon actually laments being lord of winterfell. He actually deep down even wanted it. Dreams of slaying rob and others. The scene with Stannis telling Jon he's going to attack the dreadfort is classic! He's conflicted but makes sound decisions and gives sage council to a darn King who strangely cared to listen. Obviously really liked Jon.

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Maybe Jon just inherited some his rashness and lovefool-ness (is that a word) from his father.

His real father that is.

Perhaps what we are seeing is the internal clash between the targaryen fiery impulsiveness and the cold icy stark loyalty.

He is ice and fire afterall so some kind of split personalty is to be expected.

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I don't see it that way.  Jon bent the knee after Dany fought  a battle and saved them, lost a dragon.  She put her life on the line.  That's serious.

It's okay that Jon was apprehensive in the beginning when he first met Dany, and that he was convinced after the battle. She fought for him and gave him dragonglass, and she proved an okay, trustworthy ruler. 

As far as the treatment of Melissandre and Theon, He was critical of both.  He expelled Melissandre and wanted to kill Theon.  

I don't see a large inconsistency in the character.

 

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Hoo said:

I don't see it that way.  Jon bent the knee after Dany fought  a battle and saved them, lost a dragon.  She put her life on the line.  That's serious.

It's okay that Jon was apprehensive in the beginning when he first met Dany, and that he was convinced after the battle. She fought for him and gave him dragonglass, and she proved an okay, trustworthy ruler. 

As far as the treatment of Melissandre and Theon, He was critical of both.  He expelled Melissandre and wanted to kill Theon.  

I don't see a large inconsistency in the character.

 

 

 

 

He wanted to kill Theon, and he wanted to kill Melisandre. He said he would take her head if she came north again. She raised him fromt he dead... Theon didn't and Davos wasn't a friend of his. he was Stannis Hand.

Jon bending the knee made no sense as he's a king and has far more to consider then just "oh you saved us! I'll sell out the North for you!". This is not the time to cause an issue like this. Yet here he goes doing his best Rob Stark impression. Stannis saved Jon and he didn't bend the knee for him. Its literally i bend my knee cause you're beautiful. lol

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1 hour ago, ramla said:

That would make sense... for somebody who's a follower. Or somebody whos not basically leading everything at the moment. Jon pretty much moves the "others" plot. Every battle decision is his. "Tormund, man the wall... Dany will ride with us to show we are united... This is the only war"  All Jon. He needs her dragons, but she offered them freely for 1. For 2, he could have held out until at least talking to Sansa and the leaders in the north. He knows that's going to cause a conflict, and he didn't have too. He knows they don't have time for a conflict like that... He could have held his tongue and then decided it when he got to the north. He still could have stood firm against Cersei... he's a King (Was). I agree with what you are saying as a possible reason... its just not a situation thats well written with regard to who Jon is.

No, I agree with you. I'm just trying to think about the reasoning for how it played out in the show. I think the main reason for how it happened is time constraints, which is their own fault.  Along what you're saying, if anyone had any sense it would be Jon (slow the NK and hold off in the North for as long as possible) and Dany (just defeat Lannisters and unite bottom half of Westeros).  I mean as you said Jon has made every decision in the North and Dany has made every successful decision in the South. Under that plan, Dany would have conquered the South and moving to join Jon after like 2 episodes lol.

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3 minutes ago, ramla said:

He wanted to kill Theon, and he wanted to kill Melisandre. He said he would take her head if she came north again. She raised him fromt he dead... Theon didn't and Davos wasn't a friend of his. he was Stannis Hand.

Well to be fair, Jon said Theon wasn't stabbed in that moment because of what he did for Sansa.  Same as Jon didn't kill Melisandra, I'm assuming, because she raised him.  Also, I don't know why Davos just jumped to being Jon's right hand man after Stannis death. I like him as a character and the way he says stuff but that was never really explained unless I'm misremembering 

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9 minutes ago, ramla said:

He wanted to kill Theon, and he wanted to kill Melisandre. He said he would take her head if she came north again. She raised him fromt he dead... Theon didn't and Davos wasn't a friend of his. he was Stannis Hand.

Jon bending the knee made no sense as he's a king and has far more to consider then just "oh you saved us! I'll sell out the North for you!". This is not the time to cause an issue like this. Yet here he goes doing his best Rob Stark impression. Stannis saved Jon and he didn't bend the knee for him. Its literally i bend my knee cause you're beautiful. lol

Thank you. 

 

Jon handwaving all else because Dany is beautiful is completely out of character. If he was so driven by his cock he would have hooked up with Melisandre (who he was clearly attracted to. That whole scene with her trying to seduce him showed how Jon is stronger than his cock! Now look at him) too and hit on Cersei this past episode. 

Edited by Snormund

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3 minutes ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

No, I agree with you. I'm just trying to think about the reasoning for how it played out in the show. I think the main reason for how it happened is time constraints, which is their own fault.  Along what you're saying, if anyone had any sense it would be Jon (slow the NK and hold off in the North for as long as possible) and Dany (just defeat Lannisters and unite bottom half of Westeros).  I mean as you said Jon has made every decision in the North and Dany has made every successful decision in the South. Under that plan, Dany would have conquered the South and moving to join Jon after like 2 episodes lol.

Pretty much! lol
the irony of it all is that, the whole purpose of pleading their case to Cersei, was to show that thier petty squabble should come secondary to the army of the dead. yet he creates another complications to focus on instead of the army of the dead. I know we have to fight this war but I simply must bend the knee right now! LOL
(Not sure I worded that correctly.)

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I know some have suggested that Robb's will makes Jon his heir and King of the North but I wonder why the show didn't make Sansa the focal point of the north as the Lady of Winterfell. And when Dany's message comes, Jon goes as emissary for his sister, protecting her from a dangerous situation. Then him joining her isn't so much of a stuff you to everyone back north.

As others have said, everything he has done since leaving Winterfell has been incredibly selfish and stupid. I know that show's have to work a certain way ie the lead character goes charging into battle but him constantly putting himself in dangerous situations, being shown to leave Sansa alone and with no communication as to what he is doing and throwing away those people's loyalties at the drop of a hat makes him look pretty dickish.

They could have made this slightly more palatable by showing Jon seeing and believing that Dany would be a better ruler for Westeros. At least that would imply he is doing everything for the sake of his people and not as others have said for a pretty face.

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43 minutes ago, Hoo said:

I don't see it that way.  Jon bent the knee after Dany fought  a battle and saved them, lost a dragon.  She put her life on the line.  That's serious.

It's okay that Jon was apprehensive in the beginning when he first met Dany, and that he was convinced after the battle. She fought for him and gave him dragonglass, and she proved an okay, trustworthy ruler. 

Also, Jon wanted to avoid loss of lives. If they defeat the NK, what after that? Do Dany's armies fight Jon's armies? And he was also influenced by what Tormund said about wildlings being killed due to Mance refusing to bend the knee.

Now it's possible Jon did it partly because he was attracted to Dany, but that wasn't what primarily led him to capitulate.

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22 minutes ago, ramla said:

He wanted to kill Theon, and he wanted to kill Melisandre. He said he would take her head if she came north again. She raised him fromt he dead... Theon didn't and Davos wasn't a friend of his. he was Stannis Hand.

Jon bending the knee made no sense as he's a king and has far more to consider then just "oh you saved us! I'll sell out the North for you!". This is not the time to cause an issue like this. Yet here he goes doing his best Rob Stark impression. Stannis saved Jon and he didn't bend the knee for him. Its literally i bend my knee cause you're beautiful. lol

I never understood king in the north to mean a permanent secession.  They declare kingdom when they are in an open rebellion, and then when things quiet down they become subservient to KL for the peace of the realm.

Him bending the knee is a matter of course, that's what they do in the north.

This is why Cersei wants him to suspend the rebelllion before declaring her help.  It's an issue.  But he cannot do it because he already made peace with one throne contender.  And Cersei's mad.

Edited by Hoo

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1 hour ago, ~DarkHorse~ said:

I agree. 

Jon is my favourite character, so it pains me to say it, but post episode 2 he has been portrayed as a terrible leader, let alone ruler. He was not a king once in any of his scenes with Daenerys. He was just an individual with a fancy title, to give him equal footing with Daenerys.

The main problem is that the Northerners were alienated from him and vice versa. Yes, Daenerys proved herself to him, but only to him. There should have been other Northerners to back him up. This was an important diplomatic mission for the North. Where were his soldiers to protect him? Why did he not bring a Northern Lord or two to give him counsel? He only had Davos, apparently (who is not a northerner). He never sent a raven to Sansa once, or even stopped by Winterfell on his way to Eastwatch and then back South again. He pledged himself to Daenerys because of his feelings for her, as opposed to the politics of the situation. The North was not involved in this at all. Only him. 

He also went on a reckless mission that he knew could get him killed, but failed to tell the North or set up any plans for what should happen if he dies (e.g. will, heir, demands), which could potentially plunge the North into instability. 

He was King in name alone this season. When you view him as a representative over thousands of people, instead of an individual, then he is a selfish and reckless jerk, who does not take his position seriously. 

It is a real shame because in the books, Jon's ADWD arc showed that he has the wits and pragmatic skillset to be a good ruler. He is capable of being harsh and manipulative when he needs to be (see: forcing Gilly to switch her kid with Mance's) and he is capable of negotiating with a ruler by going toe to toe with them and getting a good deal himself (see: his dealings with Stannis). Instead, the show has stripped away his political nuance and reduced him to underdog morally pure Ned Stark junior, with wicked sword skills. He is supposedly a worthy King because he is a good guy and impressive individual, as opposed to actually being an effective leader that makes the best use out of the situation he is in and the resources around him. 

This is an excellent post. 

My feeling is that the ShowJon's character development basically stopped after his resurrection, and, indeed, started regressing.He actually seems more naive, vulnerable and less experienced than he did back in series one. He also seems to have forgotten all the lessons he learnt about leadership during his tenure as Lord Commander, including the very reason why he got killed in the first place. 

it is quite obviously a writing problem. ShowJon is now just some emo kid who walks around looking wan, confused and troubled. He's completely unbelievable as King in the North; he has no gravitas at all anymore. And when he was proclaimed King, there should have been talk about who he would marry to build an alliance (this would have been a perfect opportunity for Sansa to show her painfully-acquired diplomatic skills, and would have been a source of tension between her and Jon in light of the possibility of his death at both Danys' and the White Walkers' hands). Marriage alliances were one of the major themes in the earlier series, and the reason for the downfall of Robb Stark at the hands of Walder Frey; this stuff is important in Westeros. 

For example, instead of requesting Dany's "help" in mining the dragonglass; why didn't he approach her with a marriage proposal? It's not like this would be unusual in Westeros, nor something Dany would not expect. She's done it before. Then we could have had a very interesting dynamic set up whereby the idea of an arranged dynastic marriage between the North and Dany creates fallout with other Westerosi houses and other singular supporters such as Tyrion (who may or may not see trouble ahead in such a match), and that would have made the revelation about Jon's parentage even more shocking, particularly if it came to light after the marriage had gone ahead or if it was used as a reason why the marriage could not go ahead.    

It would have also provided a viable reason for Dany and Jon to cross the wall with a couple of dragons. If the proposal is that Dany marries Jon in order to secure the support of the North for her claim to the IT in return for dragonglass and help with the WW, then there would have been a reason for Jon to insist she goes to see the WW threat to the realm herself, and that's when she loses Viserion to the NK.     

I also think that Jon losing his side kick/foil in Sam when he went to Old Town has caused story problems. For the last few episodes, Jon has had no other appropriate character by which an exchange of dialogue can take place that reveals how his internal thinking about the situation with Dany, his position as King in the North or the idea behind the wight-show. All we see are his decisions with no insight into any of his reactions to prior actions that then provoked said decisions ~ and he's supposed to be a primary protagonist. We are supposed to know why he is doing things and making the decisions he is ... but we just don't. I can't particularly figure out just why he's in love with Dany or why she is in love with him. He hardly knows her, compared to someone like Jorah whose feelings make far more sense. 

In short, no-one is really confiding in other characters anymore, so there's no revealing insights. Everyone has become a lone island in the story.

 

 

 

     

 

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15 minutes ago, Snormund said:

Thank you. 

 

Jon handwaving all else because Dany is beautiful is completely out of character. If he was so driven by his cock he would have hooked up with Melisandre (who he was clearly attracted to. That whole scene with her trying to seduce him showed how Jon is stronger than his cock! Now look at him) too and hit on Cersei this past episode. 

But the problem is Jon wasn't related to Melisandra.  See he is only attracted to another woman and willing to make a bastard if its through someone related. A key dialogue that Jon had off screen and were never supposed to know until Dany gets pregnant. Very similar to D&D's take on the WF drama this season lol.

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1 minute ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

But the problem is Jon wasn't related to Melisandra.  See he is only attracted to another woman and willing to make a bastard if its through someone related. A key dialogue that Jon had off screen and were never supposed to know until Dany gets pregnant. Very similar to D&D's take on the WF drama this season lol.

Lol Mel could be his great great grandmother with the way this show has been going. 

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2 minutes ago, Masha's apron said:

For example, instead of requesting Dany's "help" in mining the dragonglass; why didn't he approach her with a marriage proposal? It's not like this would be unusual in Westeros, nor something Dany would not expect. She's done it before. Then we could have had a very interesting dynamic set up whereby the idea of an arranged dynastic marriage between the North and Dany creates fallout with other Westerosi houses and other singular supporters such as Tyrion (who may or may not see trouble ahead in such a match), and that would have made the revelation about Jon's parentage even more shocking, particularly if it came to light after the marriage had gone ahead or if it was used as a reason why the marriage could not go ahead.    

    

 

I hear you on your point and agree on how this would be logical but this would open the forum up to more talk of Jon (Aegon) taking on FAegon's plot in the books I feel like.

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