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Snormund

Can we talk about Jon?

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1 minute ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

Y'all are into that crazy pu$$y.  Yeah y'all can have that.  she may screw your brains out but she will also burn you alive in your home while you sleep.  

Lmao. I'm not into Cersei though and she's just as crazy if not more so. 

 

 

as much as I hate her Emilia Clarke deserves a mention while we're on this topic. Natalie Dormer is nice as well. 

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4 minutes ago, Snormund said:

Lmao. I'm not into Cersei though and she's just as crazy if not more so. 

 

 

as much as I hate her Emilia Clarke deserves a mention while we're on this topic. Natalie Dormer is nice as well. 

I don't see the attraction to Natalie Dormer.  I'm more into exotic women, my wife is creole, so that explains my Missandei attraction, but Emilia Clarke would be my 2nd because what nerd like me didn't nearly cream myself when a hot young blonde emerged from a fire naked with baby dragons on her shoulder?  I mean that has to have been every nerd's dream come true.

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2 hours ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

I think Tormund's words about Mance beyond the wall had something to do with it.  He may feel that Dany is the key to defeat the white walkers because of her dragons and because she is an honorable person.  I just wish it would have been mentioned to Jon and Dany that Ned was the only person who stood up to Robert when he wanted Dany killed. To me it would have made more sense for that to be a reason why Dany would put her trust in Ned Stark's "son", and maybe Jon would have seen that as a sign.  

Now that we know for a fact that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, could Ned have possibly been willing to stand up against Dany's murder because she was a child and he knew she was Jon's aunt as well?  

This.

Jon is doing what Mance Rayder did not: setting his honor aside for the greater good. Jon knows he's been chosen as the King by his bannermen, and his honor demands he holds that vow, but the greater good forces him to bend the knee to Daenerys.

The one that's acting like a prick here is Dany. She's been too proud for my taste, and she should realize the North is different than the rest

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I also like Natalia Tena who plays Osha. While she isn't the conventional beauty many of the women we've been discussing are her character strikes me as someone who'd be a badass punk rocker chick in the modern world and that is super hot to me. 

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On 8/28/2017 at 1:30 PM, Snormund said:

This is the 3rd and final time I attempt making a thread discussing what happened to his character. I believe this is well worth a thread. 

 

Does it not bother anyone else the way Jon bent the knee to Daenerys after making a big deal out of his loyalty and duty to keeping the North independent? Especially considering she treated him rather shabbily all season, to say the least. She has done nothing to earn his undying love and devotion besides being beautiful. This is completely out of character for Jon in my book. He is someone established as one who doesn't make decisions based on his lustful impulses but now he sells out the North because of them? What. I think he acted incredibly foolishly and selfishly and out of character regarding Dany  

I don't see Northern independence as a cause Jon was ever too wedded to. Frankly not even Robb was, his lords just declared him king and he went with it. Northern independence was, moreover, an expression of independence from the Iron throne controlled by the Lannisters. Jon's primary concern is Northern safety and survival. That beats everything. In 7x06 the Mance Rayder analogy is made again, this time by Tormund, not by the queen who wishes that he bend the knee. Jon remembers, in speaking to Berric that his main mission is not so much loyalty to the North, but to be the "shield that guard the realms of men."

At this point he knows these things:

1. Daenerys is  a military powerhouse (at least compared to anyone). He needs these weapons etc. 

2. The threat is now immediate (very close to Eastwatch). The short timetable forces desperate decisions.

3. Daenerys has just committed to helping him.

However, he knows that Daenerys can be impulsive. One moment someone is a trusted advisor and the next he is under suspicion. Dany's forces are completely foreign (unsullied, Dothraki etc.). What if she changes her mind when she is emotionally less vulnerable? What if she returns to prioritizing the war against Cersei? (remember that was still her position just before the wight hunt). He needs to lock her in and make her commit to this properly. The immediate threat is to the North. Southerners can take their time. Daenerys, with her mainly Essosi forces and history can even leave altogether if things get too bad. So he gives her the North. Now it's hers to defend. She can't back out of it. Just like Hardhome may not have happened if the wildlings had committed to bending the knee to Stannis and fighting for him. Stannis might have sent them boats much sooner (and more boats etc.). But Mance stuck to the principles of not kneeling.

 

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5 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

This.

Jon is doing what Mance Rayder did not: setting his honor aside for the greater good. Jon knows he's been chosen as the King by his bannermen, and his honor demands he holds that vow, but the greater good forces him to bend the knee to Daenerys.

The one that's acting like a prick here is Dany. She's been too proud for my taste, and she should realize the North is different than the rest

Dany is still playing by the rules of typical Westerosi politics. Stannis would probably have had Jon executed for stubbornly insisting on not bending the knee. Tywin would probably have refused unless the North bent the knee as well

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1 hour ago, Snormund said:

To be fair Carice Van Houten looks fucking incredible naked. 

:agree:

It's impossible for me to read a comment like this without offering my most enthusiastic agreement.  

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3 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

Dany is still playing by the rules of typical Westerosi politics. Stannis would probably have had Jon executed for stubbornly insisting on not bending the knee. Tywin would probably have refused unless the North bent the knee as well

Sure, I'm not saying otherwise, but Daenerys should be different than Tywin or Stannis at this point: she's seen to much, she's been through a lot...she should know Northeners will never ccept a Southern ruler unless some alliances are made.

This is why I believe Jon will ask her for marriage.

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2 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

Dany is still playing by the rules of typical Westerosi politics. Stannis would probably have had Jon executed for stubbornly insisting on not bending the knee. Tywin would probably have refused unless the North bent the knee as well

But Dany doesn't really have the advantage in terms of numbers to be as stubborn as she is. She has dragons, true, but dragons can be killed. If everybody else were to form an alliance against her, she would be easily defeated, hence she should've formed an alliance with the north sooner than she did.

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4 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Sure, I'm not saying otherwise, but Daenerys should be different than Tywin or Stannis at this point: she's seen to much, she's been through a lot...she should know Northeners will never ccept a Southern ruler unless some alliances are made.

This is why I believe Jon will ask her for marriage.

She has Tyrion advising her, but she doesn't have the greatest political acumen. This level of sensitivity is something she seems to lack. Her Modus operandi seems to be to try to get allegiance by showing others how terrifying and powerful she can be. I cannot remember any real situation in the history of the show where she showed a deep political understanding of how to do things. With the slaver cities she had a clever ploy at Astapor, after which it was just military victories throughout. With the Dothraki she convinced them by using her fire immunity and her dragon. The "Dothraki follow only strength", and this still seems to be Dany's main method. I think Jon does try to explain the North to her. And her apporach does become more sensitive as a result. First she thinks that if Jon accepts then it will be the end of it. But in 7x06 she ackowledges the worry that his lord may find it difficult to follow him on this (jon says they'll come to see her etc.). So Dany actually does not know much about Westeros at that level. She's still learning on that count.

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33 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

But Dany doesn't really have the advantage in terms of numbers to be as stubborn as she is. She has dragons, true, but dragons can be killed. If everybody else were to form an alliance against her, she would be easily defeated, hence she should've formed an alliance with the north sooner than she did.

Doesn't she? How many Dothraki are there with her? in 6x04 Jorah estimates around 100,000 Dothraki warriors, if I remember.

In terms of the books, the only force that is known to have given the Dothraki a bloody nose are the unsullied (the 3,000 of Qohor). The unsullied are modelled after the legions of the old Ghsicari empire which was mighty in Essos and only defeated by the Valyrians with their dragons. So Dothraki, Unsullied, and Dragons. She has all three.

I think the show has almost given her the Planetos equivalent of the US military (with a a mostly similar lack of understanding when it comes to understanding to non-military complexities of the situation; as became quite obvious in Mereen).

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19 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

Doesn't she? How many Dothraki are there with her? in 6x04 Jorah estimates around 100,000 Dothraki warriors, if I remember.

She lost the Greyjoys and Dorne. If the north joined Cersei, who has the greyjoys, probably Dorne, the Reach and the stormlands, Dany's dothraki and unsullied would definitely be outnumbered.

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She agreed to help him fight the white walkers before he gave such allegiance... so there was no need for support. But he couldn't help himself.. he loves her, recognizes she risked her life for them, and was overpowered by the force she brings with her dragons.. not to mention the conversations he's had where those around him think not bending the knee was all about pride.

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21 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

She lost the Greyjoys and Dorne. If the north joined Cersei, who has the greyjoys, probably Dorne, the Reach and the stormlands, Dany's dothraki and unsullied would definitely be outnumbered.

I doubt it. These armies were never the same size. Moreover it's not clear who holds what at this point. She keeps saying that half the country will fall back to Cersei if she marched North. In this the show has been inconsistent. Robert Baratheon used to hold that it would be folly to meet the Dothraki in open field. Jaime seems to share that assessment now. What nos. does the North have? I seem to recall 10,000 or so as per Jon a few episodes ago. What nos. do the Lannisters have? The main Lannister army is around 10,000 men as per Tyrion in 7x03. The war of the five kings took its toll. In the books the Vale is quite powerful but here I have no real idea.

The show has dropped the ball on Drone compketely. They had Ellaria and her daughters. But even the Targaryens were never able to conquer Dorne (even Aegon the conqueror failed at that, despite dragons), and the 7th kingdom only came in through marriage. How has Cersei taken over a place that widely loathes Lannisters but has pro-Targaryen leanings all through Robert's era?

 

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1 hour ago, Hajk1984 said:

I doubt it. These armies were never the same size. Moreover it's not clear who holds what at this point. She keeps saying that half the country will fall back to Cersei if she marched North. In this the show has been inconsistent. Robert Baratheon used to hold that it would be folly to meet the Dothraki in open field. Jaime seems to share that assessment now. What nos. does the North have? I seem to recall 10,000 or so as per Jon a few episodes ago. What nos. do the Lannisters have? The main Lannister army is around 10,000 men as per Tyrion in 7x03. The war of the five kings took its toll. In the books the Vale is quite powerful but here I have no real idea.

I agree, numbers are never discussed in the show. But it is reasonable to think that Dany cannot conquer westeros with just the dothraki and the unsullied. She needs allies and the north along with the vale would've made really strong allies.

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well In the beggining he knew nothing about her and she was acting so arrogant it made me start to hate her. Then she lost some of  her forces and started to have to depend on him since she no longer had any allies in westeros.  Then they start to get along and he finally bends the knee when she says she will fight the night king. I think one of his problems with bending the knee is he didn't see anyone truly taking an interest in the war against the dead and thus he had to fight them on his own even if it was with a force that was too small.

It was never about him leading it was about him doing what was best for his people and if it means he isn't king he has no problem with that. He was a ruler who truly wanted to do what is best for his people and yet had no interest in ruling. So him giving the reigns to a person he believes will help his people is a win win for him. 

So it wasn't for lust not really. And he waited to bend the knee until she was committed to fighting the night king which is what he knows is most important.

 

As for theon I think his "forgivness" was a bit much. That said he doesn't have to spend much time around him where as mel was one of his advisors before he let her go and she was with him alot. I think if he had to spend time with theon he would feel differently.

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1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

I agree, numbers are never discussed in the show. But it is reasonable to think that Dany cannot conquer westeros with just the dothraki and the unsullied. She needs allies and the north along with the vale would've made really strong allies.

the vale's biggest strength at this point is that they haven't really fought and lost alot. When they fought at the battle of the bastards they essentially came in at the end and ended it real quick and likely lost a hundred people at most. They are a wealthy region and more importantly they have alot of food there. The vale is famously fertile. So they have the supplies to help an army which at this point is just as important as the soldiers themselves. The  vale are also more used to the cold then everyone except the north and possibly the riverlands. So basically they could make a massive difference in alot of ways. Also aegon came and started with three dragons and a few hundred troops if I remember right and conquered everywhere but dorne. So dany conquering westeros with somewhere around fifty thousand dothraki (probably more) and six thousand unsullied (when she first gets there) and three dragons is plenty. Plus dorne had already bent the knee and promised soldiers and lets say a fraction of the grey isles joined her. Then you factor in who wouldn't fight. The riverlands will not fight for the lannisters and don't really have any forces to make a difference and the north would never join with the lannisters so she could leave the north out of it until later. The problem she had was that she put kid gloves on at the beggining rather then getting the lannisters to fight a big battle where she used her dragons like at the field of fire

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