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Can we talk about Jon?

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4 hours ago, Tijgy said:

O my dear, your posts are brilliant :P!

That's how I have to view the show, because I saw nothing but lsust (if anything) when watching Jonerys. I saw a man wanting to have boatsex with this incredible beauty. After all, he didn't have time to fall in love with her (reallistically). And isn' it true that the script actually supports my theory?

4 hours ago, Tijgy said:

I agree completely of course

Carice van Houten, my poor Northern neighbour, one of the pride and glories of the Dutch acting world (she is really considered to be one of the best Dutch actresses of all time) 

(She lives in Amsterdam and she have birth last year to a son. So I actually think the filming of last season was during the last moments of her pregnancy and the first months of her son's live. I also think they only not have wasted her talent and the character Mel but also the fact Carice is very stunning in real live. In the show a lot of her beauty is taken away due the costume, make up, ... which is very sad considered she is supposed to be very beautiful. This is probably very shallow from me.)

--

I already have been pissed at Jon for usurping his little brother's place as the Lord of Winterfell/KitN or his sisters'. If he doesn't step aside when he hears about his real parentage, I really will get mad. It means the sisters' kid takes the place of the real children.

I also got pissed when I saw him bending the knee to Dany (I don't think Dany is a good moral person btw. I still get flashbacks of how she treated poor Hizzy).

Robb and those other Northerners died to be finally free from the Iron Throne. The Iron Throne or rather the Targs and the Lannisters are responsible a lot of injustice. 

The first time we learn of the North Remembers in the books is when Robb says they will lose the Karstarks even if Harrion would be happy to become Lord Karstark after his father's death. Harrion has no other choice than abandon the Starks or otherwise his own bannermen would leave him ("Robb shook his head. "Even if Harrion were that sort, he could never openly forgive his father's killer. His own men would turn on him. These are northmen, Uncle. The north remembers."

How in gods' name will they ever accept Jon bending the knee to a Targ, the family who killed his grandfather and his uncle whose hand is Lannister, the family who killed his father and plotted the death of their King, his mother and a lot of Northerners. And to make it even worse Tyrion was at that moment part of the regime/the Small Council. 

They might accept it if there are long term compensations like some guarantees (food from the crown during the winter, protection of their local customs, ...)

 

Tyrion has remarked twice this season that Dany has pyromaniac tendencies like her father. He also says she is not like him, but we have witnessed these tendencies since she started burning people alive in Meereen, with no trial. 

As for the Starks, Sansa is really pissed off when she reads that Jon has bent the knee. I don't think that Sansa and Arya will actually like that. Arya, as she loves Jon so much, will try to understand that, and Sansa, now that she has recovered the sanity and doesn't have LF around but her pack, maybe as well. Bran will not care because he is a bot, but if Sam heals him, he'll still be more focused on planning the strategy to defeat the Army of the Dead (who else apart from him and Sam are actually making proactive and intelligent decisions? They don't have time to lose). Ultimately, I hope Dany's crush for Aegon makes her stay on Earth and she doesn't forget her last words about not conquering the North that she said before agreeing to have boatsex in public in their last "strategist" council.

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Lol, people are still debating why Jon left the Night's Watch at this point? You are going to be really fucking angry when Martin releases Winds then.

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2 hours ago, ramla said:

Im not sure about minimizing the importance of the words themselves. Can't preach about the oath, then say its just wording. But, I could be taking it too literal though... Especially with how i just said how stuck in in a particular culture the NW is. But, his brothers, no matter it being only some, broke their vows and killed their lord commander. Second time in the span of what a year? Lord Commander Mormont hadn't even got used to the Harps and violins and the watch was killing another brother and commander. Im sure in the books it will be quite different but i believe it will end in the same situation. I think if Jon died by some other means and was resurrected he probably wouldn't have left the watch on that technicality. I think in the show, it was glossed over and he just left with little said. Books will explain it better.

Even so, he should have had to do some explaining or had some writ from the NW to show he'd been released of his vows, signed by the Lord Commander.

And Forever is Forever... Ones life is not.

I will agree to disagree about whether Jon broke his vows. It is acceptable for people to have different opinions on a legal issue.

What is puzzling, and makes for bad writing is that nobody, ever, expressed an opinion similar to mine. It is like the showrunners agreed with yours and never let the debate open.

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50 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Lol, people are still debating why Jon left the Night's Watch at this point? You are going to be really fucking angry when Martin releases Winds then.

What could make me angry? In my opinion Jon deserted the Watch BEFORE he died in the books. So if he is not part of the NW when/if he is resurrected, it won´t be because of the wording, but because he chose to. Whether that is good or bad, is a matter of personal opinion, one I am personally on the fence about. 

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1 hour ago, Armand Gargalen said:

I will agree to disagree about whether Jon broke his vows. It is acceptable for people to have different opinions on a legal issue.

What is puzzling, and makes for bad writing is that nobody, ever, expressed an opinion similar to mine. It is like the showrunners agreed with yours and never let the debate open.

I agree with that. I don't feel he broke his vow, but he should at least be questioned within the universe.

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10 minutes ago, ramla said:

I agree with that. I don't feel he broke his vow, but he should at least be questioned within the universe.

I am happy we are on agreement about this.

At the end of the day, my "he broke his vows" opinion is not as strong as my "somebody should question whether he broke his vows" one :)

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People are picking on Jon Because he admitted he bent the Knee in public. Jon  never  liked Tyrions plan too start with and last time Ned was near a bunch of lannisters he lost his head anyways. So I think Jon didnt care about making Cersei happy because to the North she is a criminal queen at best. I Liked Jons Lies Speech. Also Jon was the only one not groveling at cersei feet and we now know cersei wants to kill them anyways not matter what.

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On 28/8/2017 at 2:30 PM, Snormund said:

This is the 3rd and final time I attempt making a thread discussing what happened to his character. I believe this is well worth a thread. 

 

Does it not bother anyone else the way Jon bent the knee to Daenerys after making a big deal out of his loyalty and duty to keeping the North independent? Especially considering she treated him rather shabbily all season, to say the least. She has done nothing to earn his undying love and devotion besides being beautiful. This is completely out of character for Jon in my book. He is someone established as one who doesn't make decisions based on his lustful impulses but now he sells out the North because of them? What. I think he acted incredibly foolishly and selfishly and out of character regarding Dany  

 

He seemingly has forgotten about Ghost too. 

 

A question I have: as a Melisandre fan I thought Jon's treatment of Theon (who betrayed his family and killed Ser Rodrik) compared to Mel (who resurrected  him and killed someone he never met, admittedly an innocent child. Theon killed innocent kids too tho) hypocritical and unfair. Does anyone else think this or is it just me?

 

 

I would appreciate others feedback 

I think the scene between Jon and Theon was meant to foreshadow Jon's own future identity crisis. He'll be in Theon's position sooner rather than later. He'll have to come to terms with the fact that he's both a Stark AND a Targaryen. Will he be able to forgive himself for the mistakes he's made the way he forgave Theon's? Will he forgive himself for falling in love and sleeping with his aunt? Will he forgive the man he knew as father and is now dead for hiding the truth? Also, the scene was meant to move Theon's redemption arc forward. He needed someone with Jon's courage and integrity to give him the final push. 

When it comes to bending the knee, I think he did it for a number of reasons. He might have started considering it after Tormund told him that, had Mance Rayder bent the knee, thousands of lives would have been saved. Jon knows what Dany and her dragons are capable of doing, and that the North doesn't stand a chance against them. He also did it because he owed Dany a debt of gratitude. She could have let them die beyond the wall, but she didn't and she lost a dragon as a consequence. And he also did it because he's in love with and in awe of her. I really don't think his decision was based on lust or out of character all things considered. He's always put everyone and everything before himself and, even though he must have known that his bannermen would not be happy and might even want to kill him, he did it anyway because he thought it was the right thing to do. 

 

Edited by dragon_and_wolf

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6 hours ago, Armand Gargalen said:

What could make me angry? In my opinion Jon deserted the Watch BEFORE he died in the books. So if he is not part of the NW when/if he is resurrected, it won´t be because of the wording, but because he chose to. Whether that is good or bad, is a matter of personal opinion, one I am personally on the fence about. 

Fair is fair then. I consider Jon did not desert the NW because Ramsay actually threatened the NW and Shireen, Val and Selyse, who were all guests under Jon's protection. He had a legitimate reason to fight him.

Of course, these legal matters are quite debatable, even more considering the medieval world Westeros is.

 

Edited by Ingelheim

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53 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Fair is fair then. I consider Jon did not desert the NW because Ramsay actually threatened the NW and Shireen, Val and Selyse, whowere all guests under Jon's protection. He had a legitimate reason to fight him.

Of course, these legal matters are quite debatable, even more considering the medieval world Westeros is.

 

Those grey areas are one of the reasons ASOIAF is such a great piece of literature. At that is why I don´t like the way the show has handled the whole issue. 

By sending the Pink Letter after Jon is already out of the NW, the showrunners basically dismissed the potential debate, considering that, at least for certain people, the mutineers rightfully killed a NW deserter, not their Lord Commander.  They try to avoid grey areas whenever some characters, mainly Jon, are involved, while portraying a clear cut black and white contrast (mutineers=bigots, Jon=misunderstood visionary leader). 

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Geez, not a lot of love for Jon in this thread. Personally I love the character. He's honorable & brave yet stays humble. I like that he screws things up sometimes by trying to do the right thing. He gets put out of his comfort zone constantly yet still does the best he can for those around him. What's not to like?

And for what its worth, I think Kit has done a fine job as well. He's grown quite a bit as an actor over the 7 years he's played Jon and this past season in particular he brought much more emotion and nuance to a character that could be rather wooden in the early years. 

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On 8/30/2017 at 2:48 PM, EddardSnow said:

People are picking on Jon Because he admitted he bent the Knee in public. Jon  never  liked Tyrions plan too start with and last time Ned was near a bunch of lannisters he lost his head anyways. So I think Jon didnt care about making Cersei happy because to the North she is a criminal queen at best. I Liked Jons Lies Speech. Also Jon was the only one not groveling at cersei feet and we now know cersei wants to kill them anyways not matter what.

Then whats the point of meeting? He went there to appeal to Cersei to have a truce so they could handle the real threat. Why wouldn't he want to influence her positively so that they don't waste the deaths of Thoros, and Visceren and the 3 red shirts!?

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14 hours ago, Super Mario said:

Geez, not a lot of love for Jon in this thread. Personally I love the character. He's honorable & brave yet stays humble. I like that he screws things up sometimes by trying to do the right thing. He gets put out of his comfort zone constantly yet still does the best he can for those around him. What's not to like?

And for what its worth, I think Kit has done a fine job as well. He's grown quite a bit as an actor over the 7 years he's played Jon and this past season in particular he brought much more emotion and nuance to a character that could be rather wooden in the early years. 

Jon s my favorite Book character. But Show Jon, isn't Jon. Not because Kit. I think Kit was well caste... But, how he's written is butchering his character. I want "Kill the boy Jon Snow"... not Bend the knee cause she cute Jon Snow.

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My overall opinion is that the whole dumb plan was tyrions and blaming jon when cersei has no wish to help anyways is more show runners making starks look weak because they are noble deal. Also I think Jon doesnt care about the games of westeros cause he thinks the night king and the army of the dead will win and lies wont change anything.

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On 31/08/2017 at 6:16 AM, Super Mario said:

Geez, not a lot of love for Jon in this thread. Personally I love the character. He's honorable & brave yet stays humble. I like that he screws things up sometimes by trying to do the right thing. He gets put out of his comfort zone constantly yet still does the best he can for those around him. What's not to like?

And for what its worth, I think Kit has done a fine job as well. He's grown quite a bit as an actor over the 7 years he's played Jon and this past season in particular he brought much more emotion and nuance to a character that could be rather wooden in the early years. 

He screws things up so much now that he essentially fails upwards. 

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17 hours ago, ramla said:

Jon s my favorite Book character. But Show Jon, isn't Jon. Not because Kit. I think Kit was well caste... But, how he's written is butchering his character. I want "Kill the boy Jon Snow"... not Bend the knee cause she cute Jon Snow.

 

9 hours ago, EddardSnow said:

My overall opinion is that the whole dumb plan was tyrions and blaming jon when cersei has no wish to help anyways is more show runners making starks look weak because they are noble deal. Also I think Jon doesnt care about the games of westeros cause he thinks the night king and the army of the dead will win and lies wont change anything.

I agree with both these statements. It has become clear that D$D only knew how to write Jon as a straight cut hero and lacked the ability to bring Book!Jon to the screen. The Jon that trains regularly with his men while also making sure to take care of his various administrative duties. The jon who secures funding from the Iron Bank of Braavos and uses the gold and other precious materials seized from the Wildings to pay them back. The Jon who uses the Wildings to man the wall as a means of seperating them and making it easier to control them. 

Book!Jon is not what we see on the screen at all. And it saddens me.

When it comes to the portrayal of the Starks it is a shame that they have twisted all the surviving characters except for Bran i Guess. the biggest problem to me is how they just cut the warging of Jon and Arya out and how that has had such a negative impact on the relationships between them and their Direwolves. The Direwolves were clear symbols of the Starks on the level of the dragons and the control they exerted over such huge and fearsome creatures showed their was something special going on.

Instead this was cut while Deadpan apparently gained the ability to control all three dragons with her thoughts and is fireproof...because tits and dragons beat out deep psychic and emotional bond with giant wolves that connect to the identity of the characters on multiple levels...and we could not do tits and direwolves.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, The Golden Wolf said:

 

I agree with both these statements. It has become clear that D$D only knew how to write Jon as a straight cut hero and lacked the ability to bring Book!Jon to the screen. The Jon that trains regularly with his men while also making sure to take care of his various administrative duties. The jon who secures funding from the Iron Bank of Braavos and uses the gold and other precious materials seized from the Wildings to pay them back. The Jon who uses the Wildings to man the wall as a means of seperating them and making it easier to control them. 

Book!Jon is not what we see on the screen at all. And it saddens me.

When it comes to the portrayal of the Starks it is a shame that they have twisted all the surviving characters except for Bran i Guess. the biggest problem to me is how they just cut the warging of Jon and Arya out and how that has had such a negative impact on the relationships between them and their Direwolves. The Direwolves were clear symbols of the Starks on the level of the dragons and the control they exerted over such huge and fearsome creatures showed their was something special going on.

Instead this was cut while Deadpan apparently gained the ability to control all three dragons with her thoughts and is fireproof...because tits and dragons beat out deep psychic and emotional bond with giant wolves that connect to the identity of the characters on multiple levels...and we could not do tits and direwolves.

 

 

The Book showed why Jon was made Lord Commander. Switching the Babies, threatening Gilly, Defying Stannis, Gaining Stannis respect. Yes they hacked the Starks to pieces. I don't know how far from the books the TV's final season will be. But The Direwoves have so much meaning for all the Stark children. Sansa's was killed and she basically was at the mercy of the lannisters... Alone and surrounded by enemies. Nymeria split from Arya, and Arya seemed lost for a long time. Rob and Gray wind were killed together. They are most certainly linked in a really powerful way. The thought that D&D felt the need to break this link shows a lack of respect for the source materials true meaning. I know GRRM hates the direction of the show as far as the characters are concerned.

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Are we forgetting that Jon is a Stark too and his step dad, the man who the North revered risked his life and betrayed his best friend to protect him.  I think the North will complain at first but once they see the AotD they won't care about bent knees.  Jon got the North dragons and he also solidified an alliance that will ensure Northern interests are protected if Dany gets the throne.  

Edited by SerJeremiahLouistark

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The hate towards the Jon/Dany coupling baffles me. I get the incest part but both characters are unaware so we have to look past that, plus we've seen worse (twins? Eww). But what gets me is how many folks complain about the lack of chemistry then in the next sentence complain about the lack of realism. 

The physical attraction should be obvious and doesn't require explanation. But it's the awkwardness between the two that makes it so real. In relationships Dany has always been chased (Daario, Duck Sauce from Qarth) or taken (Drogo). She has zero experience with the cat and mouse game that real people play in a burgeoning romance. Jon has even less experience. He's only had one girlfriend his whole life, and that literally a lifetime ago! Add into that his shyness and the way he broods, his seriousness and sense of duty... this guy has no clue how to romance an ordinary woman nevermind a breathtakingly beautiful, dragon riding queen. Together they're like a couple middle school kids trying to get together at a school dance.

Realistically, based on their shared lack of experience, they should act like they're clueless, because they are! If the writers had these two engage in a smooth, well conducted courtship culminating with them running towards each other on the beach with arms outstretched would be ludicrous. Think of your own early relationships, given their lack of experience, that's where Dany & Jon are. If the show portrayed this union as anything other than awkward, that would be where the lack of realism would lie.

Edited by Super Mario

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2 hours ago, ramla said:

The Book showed why Jon was made Lord Commander. Switching the Babies, threatening Gilly, Defying Stannis, Gaining Stannis respect. Yes they hacked the Starks to pieces. I don't know how far from the books the TV's final season will be. But The Direwoves have so much meaning for all the Stark children. Sansa's was killed and she basically was at the mercy of the lannisters... Alone and surrounded by enemies. Nymeria split from Arya, and Arya seemed lost for a long time. Rob and Gray wind were killed together. They are most certainly linked in a really powerful way. The thought that D&D felt the need to break this link shows a lack of respect for the source materials true meaning. I know GRRM hates the direction of the show as far as the characters are concerned.

As much as I dislike Jon not having Ghost with him, saying it was done out of disrespect is unfair. CGI is expensive and it cannot be denied that the dragons were extremely important this season. And scenes with the dragons were extremely well done and made for a really good viewing experience.

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