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Snormund

Can we talk about Jon?

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28 minutes ago, Super Mario said:

The hate towards the Jon/Dany coupling baffles me. I get the incest part but both characters are unaware so we have to look past that, plus we've seen worse (twins? Eww). But what gets me is how many folks complain about the lack of chemistry then in the next sentence complain about the lack of realism. 

The physical attraction should be obvious and doesn't require explanation. But it's the awkwardness between the two that makes it so real. In relationships Dany has always been chased (Daario, Duck Sauce from Qarth) or taken (Drogo). She has zero experience with the cat and mouse game that real people play in a burgeoning romance. Jon has even less experience. He's only had one girlfriend his whole life, and that literally a lifetime ago! Add into that his shyness and the way he broods, his seriousness and sense of duty... this guy has no clue how to romance an ordinary woman nevermind a breathtakingly beautiful, dragon riding queen. Together they're like a couple middle school kids trying to get together at a school dance.

Realistically, based on their shared lack of experience, they should act like they're clueless, because they are! If the writers had these two engage in a smooth, well conducted courtship culminating with them running towards each other on the beach with arms outstretched would be ludicrous. Think of your own early relationships, given their lack of experience, that's where Dany & Jon are. If the show portrayed this union as anything other than awkward, that would be where the lack of realism would lie.

:agree:
This forum needs a like-function. 

It's worth noting the similarities between Jon and Dany's past romances.
Ygritte chased/seduced Jon, just as Daario/Xaro did/tried to do with Dany, and there was elements of Stockholms Syndrome in Jon and Ygrittes romance, just as it was with Dany and Drogos.
Not saying that Jon/Ygritte and Dany/Drogo didn't love each other, but just as you point out, neither Jon nor Dany has ever partaken in the "cat and mouse"-game that a normal mutual romance usually revolves around. Until now that is.

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15 minutes ago, Super Mario said:

The hate towards the Jon/Dany coupling baffles me. I get the incest part but both characters are unaware so we have to look past that, plus we've seen worse (twins? Eww). But what gets me is how many folks complain about the lack of chemistry then in the next sentence complain about the lack of realism. 

The physical attraction should be obvious and doesn't require explanation. But it's the awkwardness between the two that makes it so real. 

I agree with the above. They are unaware that they are related, which makes the pairing interesting. I would be disappointed if they are ok with it next season because it's something targs have been doing forever. I'm hoping for the show universe to stop condoning incest.

Even with Jaime and Cersei, they live in a universe where monarchs marry siblings, which makes me understand how they view it as acceptable as gross as it is. Not to mention the dysfunctional Lannister family. But that's off topic.

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On 30/8/2017 at 8:48 PM, EddardSnow said:

People are picking on Jon Because he admitted he bent the Knee in public. Jon  never  liked Tyrions plan too start with and last time Ned was near a bunch of lannisters he lost his head anyways. So I think Jon didnt care about making Cersei happy because to the North she is a criminal queen at best. I Liked Jons Lies Speech. Also Jon was the only one not groveling at cersei feet and we now know cersei wants to kill them anyways not matter what.

Does it matter if he liked it or not? They did it anyway, he didn't plan another strategy.

So the plan was dumb, but it cost lives. Then, Jon basically destroys it at the last minute because he can't lie, etc. 

Jon's character has been destroyed.

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36 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

As much as I dislike Jon not having Ghost with him, saying it was done out of disrespect is unfair. CGI is expensive and it cannot be denied that the dragons were extremely important this season. And scenes with the dragons were extremely well done and made for a really good viewing experience.

Ahhh, The "600 Masks Effect". There are other ways to budget a show then hacking the narrative to pieces. Im pretty sure, that when they negotiated the creation of the show, it was understood that Direwolves and dragons would cost a good deal to produce, but i doubt, GRRm was like "yeah well we don't need the direwolves that much! And there's only one Direwolf that should be active right now. Its a part of the story. Its like deciding not to pay for a machete because its over the Friday the 13th budget and just have Micheal Meyers only do strangulations. LOL Half the good murders are gone! lol jking.
Seriously though, its clear they didn't respect that aspect of the story enough to include it. Thats like crystal clear.

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I'm not calling Jon and Dany gross for having sex. Admittedly they don't know they're related. I'm saying them having sex is gross because they're related. The act of incest that is. They arent necessarily gross people since they don't know, if that makes sense. 

 

That said I fully expect them to continue after finding out they're closely related and that IS gross. 

 

Incest being common in Westeros isn't an excuse. Westeros has a lot of shitty views. 

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I know its a gross plot idea but they are targ and if Dany become pregnant that will change whatever jon hestitation could be around Dany after he learns the truth. Jon wont abandon a child or a women not after the whole Ygritte break up and her death.

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6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

As much as I dislike Jon not having Ghost with him, saying it was done out of disrespect is unfair. CGI is expensive and it cannot be denied that the dragons were extremely important this season. And scenes with the dragons were extremely well done and made for a really good viewing experience.

While it is true that CGI is expensive, they have routinely done scenes that added nothing of value to the narrative whose money could have been used for just one or two shots of Ghost to let us know that he is still around and breathing. I don't need Ghost to travel with Jon to Dragonstone but his presence should have at the least been felt throughout Winterfell. just a few shots of Ghost in the Godswood with Bran or the Great Hall when the Starks are holding court. that is all. 

and while the Dragons are important the downplaying of the Stark children and their Warging and connection to their Direwolves has been a detriment to their character and identity. Then again outside of the Wall (which they still mess up at times) they really do not know what to do with the North as Show!North is nowhere near as awesome as Book!North. So many missed moments or poorly done translations to the screen that truly let you know "The North Remembers".   

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2 hours ago, The Golden Wolf said:

While it is true that CGI is expensive, they have routinely done scenes that added nothing of value to the narrative whose money could have been used for just one or two shots of Ghost to let us know that he is still around and breathing. I don't need Ghost to travel with Jon to Dragonstone but his presence should have at the least been felt throughout Winterfell. just a few shots of Ghost in the Godswood with Bran or the Great Hall when the Starks are holding court. that is all. 

and while the Dragons are important the downplaying of the Stark children and their Warging and connection to their Direwolves has been a detriment to their character and identity. Then again outside of the Wall (which they still mess up at times) they really do not know what to do with the North as Show!North is nowhere near as awesome as Book!North. So many missed moments or poorly done translations to the screen that truly let you know "The North Remembers".   

Are the direwolves actually CGI? I thought they filmed actual wolves and added them to the scenes later. Isn't that a practical effect that's been around forever? It doesn't seem like it should cost that much.

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2 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

Are the direwolves actually CGI? I thought they filmed actual wolves and added them to the scenes later. Isn't that a practical effect that's been around forever? It doesn't seem like it should cost that much.

Wolves aren't dogs. They aren't going to be able to be trained in the same way and they are also far more dangerous (seriously a Wolf can rip your arm off with ease. It is unlikely for them to do that but if they get spooked or feel threatened it's a risk)

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15 minutes ago, Snormund said:

Wolves aren't dogs. They aren't going to be able to be trained in the same way and they are also far more dangerous (seriously a Wolf can rip your arm off with ease) 

Yeah, but they don't actually have to have him do anything other than lie around... and the wolf wouldn't be filming with actual actors (like how the dogs that ate Ramsay were added in). Also there's wolf dogs that look pretty much like wolves. I'm not saying it's not difficult, but it's not CGI.

Also apparently San Diego Zoo puts on shows with their arctic wolf: 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I agree with the above. They are unaware that they are related, which makes the pairing interesting. I would be disappointed if they are ok with it next season because it's something targs have been doing forever. I'm hoping for the show universe to stop condoning incest.

Even with Jaime and Cersei, they live in a universe where monarchs marry siblings, which makes me understand how they view it as acceptable as gross as it is. Not to mention the dysfunctional Lannister family. But that's off topic.

The show is not condoning incest. The show is just using a definition of incest that only counts siblings and children, because that's the world GRRM created, based on medieval Europe.

Nobody in-universe thinks Jaime and Cersei are acceptable except Cersei. The Targs have had to continually fight with the Faith and with public perception to continue to get away with marrying siblings. People make the same kinds of disparaging remarks and crude jokes that they'd make in our world.

Really, the only difference is that you consider first cousins to be incest, and Westerosi don't. There are similar differences between cultures even today, and there's no actual good reason for where each culture chooses to draw the line. If someone else thought you were disgusting for drawing a line between first cousins and first cousins once removed, you'd think they were being silly, and you'd be right. Your line is arbitrary, but so is theirs.

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2 hours ago, Snormund said:

Wolves aren't dogs. They aren't going to be able to be trained in the same way and they are also far more dangerous (seriously a Wolf can rip your arm off with ease. It is unlikely for them to do that but if they get spooked or feel threatened it's a risk)

Please stop spreading the mythology that wolves are ravenous and uncontrollable beasts.  

Ghost's real name is Quigley by the way.

Instinct for Film: Wolves

Rip your arm off with ease?  :huh:  I don't know about that.  Kill you?  Sure, but any canine weighing up to 200lbs can do that if it's switch has been flipped.  

 

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Jon bent the knee because he feels Dany is the key to winning this war, because of the dragons.  He even said it, Dany is our only hope.  Now a lot of people would accurately say he was talking about that situation beyond the wall but I think he was foreshadowing.  

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2 hours ago, falcotron said:

Really, the only difference is that you consider first cousins to be incest, and Westerosi don't. There are similar differences between cultures even today, and there's no actual good reason for where each culture chooses to draw the line.

Hell, there are places in the US where first cousins can be married.  

Yes, I sacrificed my browsing history for this information

Most places just have issue with lineal relations (grandparents, parents, kids, grandkids), leaving other relations wide open. 

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7 hours ago, Snormund said:

I'm not calling Jon and Dany gross for having sex. Admittedly they don't know they're related. I'm saying them having sex is gross because they're related. The act of incest that is. They arent necessarily gross people since they don't know, if that makes sense. 

 

That said I fully expect them to continue after finding out they're closely related and that IS gross. 

 

Incest being common in Westeros isn't an excuse. Westeros has a lot of shitty views. 

You know it's legal in some states right? I think in North Carolina it's legal to marry your cousin, close cousin too, I may be wrong but I think there are other states where certain level of incest are legal.  

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12 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

You know it's legal in some states right? I think in North Carolina it's legal to marry your cousin, close cousin too, I may be wrong but I think there are other states where certain level of incest are legal.  

To be fair, that's the kind of thing that the rest of the country makes fun of states like North Carolina for. But it's also legal in places like California and New York, too, which don't fit the hillbilly stereotype.

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Even avunculate marriages are legal in some countries today.
Australia, Austria, Finland, Sweden and the Netherlands to name a few "western" countries.

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12 minutes ago, falcotron said:

To be fair, that's the kind of thing that the rest of the country makes fun of states like North Carolina for. But it's also legal in places like California and New York, too, which don't fit the hillbilly stereotype.

I just cited NC because I read an article on it.  I'm from the south so I'm not taking jabs.  

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11 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

Please stop spreading the mythology that wolves are ravenous and uncontrollable beasts.  

Ghost's real name is Quigley by the way.

Instinct for Film: Wolves

Rip your arm off with ease?  :huh:  I don't know about that.  Kill you?  Sure, but any canine weighing up to 200lbs can do that if it's switch has been flipped.  

 

I'm not spreading that dude. Wolves are my favorite animals and I know damn well they aren't nearly as dangerous as people thought. I'm sorry if my post came off that way, I was playing devils advocate for the show I guess. just meant they are more dangerous than dogs in general and they will protect themselves if they are threatened. People are stupid and there's always a chance some idiot messes with a wolf and scares it was my point. 

 

You have me so wrong. Wolves are beautiful beautiful animals. They should be cherished. I should have wrote that post much better and I again apologize if it came off as painting wolves as super dangerous. That said, they are wild animals and all wild animals are unpredictable compared to domesticated ones.  Wolves aren't pets and should not be thought of as such. 

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