Did ned stark know that roberts rebellion was started on a lie?

[Tianzi]

Funny thing is, that in retrospect it should have been a Dorne Rebellion. Although actually Robert still would have a reason to kick Rhaegar's ass. Only the Starks would have been in an awkward position since one of their own disregarded vows.

[Tianzi]

Ah, and it was just cute how the big reveal was supposed to be that Rhaegar LOVED Lyanna. I mean, him marrying her is indeed a game changer, but him loving her? Who gives a rat ass? Her family would still have the right to demand her back and marry her off to whoever would still take her disgraced self.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Greg B said:

As far as the Tywin stuff, my opinion is that the last thing this series needs is another Evil Mastermind.

Good that he's already dead.

Personally I think that Tyrion is The Greatest Hero, because he killed Tywin. After Night's King and Cersei, Tywin was the biggest Evil of the books and show. Even though people weren't aware of it.

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Doesn't mean it's wrong, but I don't think there's any evidence for it.

There's plenty.

 

[Ser Meryn Frey]

5 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Why would Lyanna want to send out a message? 

She is eloping. Eloping means you run away quietly and secretly and hope nobody will catch you. 

If you are Lyanna, the extremely handsome crown prince said to you with his sparkling purple eyes that "I love you and let us go get married so that my evil cousin will not take you from me." Will you want to give your dad a message so that he can find you and send you off to Robert? 

Oh my god. Perhaps because she should understand thousands upon thousands will die if she does not? Her family did almost go extinct because of her! Isn't that more important than a pair of beautiful eyes? A pair of beautiful eyes that now are dead because of her and the stupid bearer of those eyes.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

10 minutes ago, Ser Meryn Frey said:

Oh my god. Perhaps because she should understand thousands upon thousands will die if she does not? Her family did almost go extinct because of her! Isn't that more important than a pair of beautiful eyes? A pair of beautiful eyes that now are dead because of her and the stupid bearer of those eyes.

Maybe she didn't understand fully what the repercussions would have been.  Look at how Ned sheltered Arya and Sansa, (Sansa more but he still wasn't always forthcoming about what was going on with them and wanted them to feel safe and protect them) seems like a Stark thing to do.  Harden the boys and make them men and shelter the girls.  

[hallam]

8 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

But the Lannisters were on Aerys' side. If Tywin had orchestrated this, shouldn't he have switched sides sooner? 

No, Tywin was playing the LittleFinger game from the start to being down Aerys. Remember that the mad thing thought Tywin had come to save him. He hated all of them. 

1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

Ah, and it was just cute how the big reveal was supposed to be that Rhaegar LOVED Lyanna. I mean, him marrying her is indeed a game changer, but him loving her? Who gives a rat ass? Her family would still have the right to demand her back and marry her off to whoever would still take her disgraced self.

Well that is why R+L=J is a silly plot but the show is giving people what they want.

The show has dropped the part about Rheagar and Aerys being opposed and Rheagar being disinherited. So what? That is what the books are for

[The Bear Who Knocks]

Doesn't surprise me that d&d tried to retcon/invalidate the Rebellion's righteousness. They never liked the Baratheons outside Renly. You mean to tell me that a character who didn't like someone because they have bastards and cheat going off with the crown prince who set aside his wife and delegitimised his kids because he was so hung up on a narcisstic interpretation of an old prophecy rambling is all good because they loved each other? huh? How does that negate that fact that Aerys II unjustly murdered Rickard and Brandon Stark and then further demanded Jon Arryn hand him over Robert and Eddard? It was a war for justice and survival. Rhaegar basically flipped off the north, stormlands, dorne and Vale all at once for his precious prophecy. Also good job on leaving Ellia and the kids with your crazy father when you supposedly know hes off his rocker. Bloody naming your new kid Aegon after disinheriting the last kids with the same name isn't a good move.

7 hours ago, teej6 said:

^ This. Everything Targaryen is becoming sacrosanct on the show.

In the books, I feel there's more to Brandon's outburst than what we've been given so far. He was a hothead, yes and Ned also blames his wolf blood for his early death. But the man was the heir to WF and should have had at least one level headed person in his entourage. I feel something or someone provoked his response. I'm not discounting that it could just be series of unfortunate events exacerbated by Aerys madness and that would be really tragic. Also, Rhaegar's long absence during this shit storm doesn't make much sense from people's impression of the guy in the books. Besides Lyanna's (a woman know for her grit and being unconventional) total silence is also strange. And I don't think it's because they were star-crossed lovers who forgot the rest of the world or because they were incommunicado. The line that RR was based on a lie fits the rest of the show's illogical storylines. Besides, I always felt that D&D hated Robert and Stannis and would be happy to pile more shit on the Baratheon brothers.

This.

[LadyFitzRandolph]

9 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Robert did not start the war though, it's like he would've been arguing vehemently for war if he was invited to counsel (and as Lord Paramount of the Stormlands I can't imagine he didn't), but Robert and Ned both had exactly two choices: Rebel or die. So whatever their motivations for rebelling were, it doesn't really matter. If they had known Lyanna had not, in fact, been kidnapped then maybe they would've been less angry, but I can't imagine that would sway Aerys very much. Aerys being a nutter really is the be-all, end-all reason for the rebellion, all the rest is just tinder to his roaring bonfire of crazy (fire-related puns intended).

This. Aerys being a complete nutcase made everything much worse. 

I never understood Brandon going to the crazy pyromaniac's house and yelling for his son to come out and die. There's no way that's ending well. Brandon obviously didn't have all the facts and I know he was upset but seriously it's the worst plan ever! 

Also, Lyanna and Rhaegar seemed to have handled the public relations angle very poorly. Not sure why they didn't emerge at some point and attempt to clear everything up. 

We have more questions than answers as usual. 

[xander_blackfyre]

1 hour ago, Ser Meryn Frey said:

Oh my god. Perhaps because she should understand thousands upon thousands will die if she does not? Her family did almost go extinct because of her! Isn't that more important than a pair of beautiful eyes? A pair of beautiful eyes that now are dead because of her and the stupid bearer of those eyes.

Why would she or Rheagar believe that their eloping would cause the deaths of thousands or that a war would break out.  Aegon V had five kids 4 of them broke their betrothals and nobody died, and the closest thing to war was when Lyonel Baratheon renounced his fealty and declared himself Storm King and his rebellion was quashed quickly and House Baratheon was placated as were House Tully and Tyrell.  Granted Aegon V was not a crazy paranoid pyrophiliac.

People keep falling into this trap, we as the readers or watcher know what inevitably happened but place yourself in that situation and try to forget what you know about the follow up events, would you have expected war to break out and thousands to die simply because you eloped.  Yeah they expected some hurt feelings but war not by a long shot.  Nobody could have predicted Aerys actions which are what led to the war.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

I posted this in another thread i hope I get someone to reply.  

Arthur Dayne and the Kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy because they were protecting their King.  Rhaegar was dead, Aerys was dead.  Rhaegar's first son and daughter were murdered.  The rightful king of the seven kingdoms was in the Tower of Joy with his mother.  

Did Ned realize this?  Did he decide on his own that he would do everything to protect his identity until he became of an age where he could take his throne back?  Or did Ned just hope he would join the Nights Watch one day so he could tell him without him being in danger anymore.  Did Ned raise him as a bastard to cover his ID and allow Cat to treat him like shit so he would be humble, and not be raised like a royal child or a noble child.  Would this make Jon different than other Kings in Ned's mind?  Or was he just content with Robert's line continuing to rule and Jon just having to live with it once he found out?  

[Mikkel]

1 hour ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

did Ned just hope he would join the Nights Watch one day so he could tell him without him being in danger anymore

Mostly this, but IIRC, Jon joining the watch didn't occur to Ned (not sure why), it was Maester Luwin's suggestion, and Ned jumped on it since it seemed to be what Jon wanted, too. I would have to re-read that to be sure though.

But I think it's safe to say that Ned never had designs on the throne on Jon's behalf, he just wanted him to grow up and live and die in peace if at all possible, his promise was to keep Jon* safe, it was never to make him king.

1 hour ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

Or was he just content with Robert's line continuing to rule and Jon just having to live with it once he found out?

I think yes, despite their falling-out, Robert and Ned were still friends and I see no reason why Ned would want to usurp his friends throne. Also, if Jon's legitimacy is at least questionable (like it likely will be in the books) then he most likely would have made sure Jon understood he was not actually "the real king". Of course the show made a bit of a mess of this with their insistence that "Jon is legit stop asking about it goddammit", but I think things like "Ned's motivations" are in the distant and unimportant past as far as the show is concerned.

_{*I refuse to call him Aegon, sorry}

[falcotron]

10 hours ago, jandslegate said:

I feel like Varys is largely responsible. Rhaegar supposedly had plans to deal with his father and intended to address that at the Tourney of Harrenhal. For book Varys it might make sense to further destabilization if you assume he's a Blackfyre. Show Varys though it doesn't fit his good of the realm motive. Advising Aerys to attend only complicates Rhaegar's plans and it seems from what has been revealed that Rhaegar would have been a good King.

Yes, the pretty clear implication is that the plan to call a Great Council to depose Aerys or force him to accept Rhaegar as a regent would have gotten started if Varys hadn't advised Aerys, and that this forced the plans to be set back a while.

10 hours ago, jandslegate said:

Then again, it's apparently the Tourney where Rhaegar and Lyanna met and fell in love. It still kind of seems like it was either deliberate of Varys or an odd misstep from Varys.

I think that was a total coincidence, and it wasn't really a misstep for Varys not to predict something that random.

Rhaegar presumably had the Aerys plan as his first priority; he'd have plenty of time to do the prophecy stuff, but this was urgent. Aerys showing up at the tourney was enough to push back the Aerys plan, as Varys wanted. But it was Rhaegar happening to find the perfect dragon-head-baby-mama on the same weekend that caused him to decide to go sire his prophecy baby first, and then come back and deal with Aerys later. After all, what's the worst that can happen in a few short months? (I mean, other than his baby-mama's brother being a hothead and his Mad King father being mad and everything escalating into a civil war before the honeymoon is over, but seriously, what are the odds of that?)

I'm not sure whether in Varys's mind the result was "wow, my plan was wildly successful beyond my expectations" or "damn, that got out of control… now what?" But either way, I don't think he was anticipating Lyanna or any of the fallout.

And I don't see how it could have been deliberate. What could Varys have done to make Rhaegar suddenly decide Lyanna was the perfect mother for his third head?

[Veryon Stark]

A little bit off topic, but, what about all the way around ? Let us pretend Rhaegar and Lyanna assumed openly their relation. Was is possible to have a Roberts rebelion against the Targs and the Starks with Dornish support ? What would Arryn do ? And Tywin and the riverlands ?

[Ser Gareth]

9 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Ah, and it was just cute how the big reveal was supposed to be that Rhaegar LOVED Lyanna. I mean, him marrying her is indeed a game changer, but him loving her? Who gives a rat ass? Her family would still have the right to demand her back and marry her off to whoever would still take her disgraced self.

The whole backstory to the rebellion is flimsy and unlikely.  I just choose to ignore the gaping holes in that part of the plot.

[Sand11751]

The showrunners, bless their hearts, have done this oversimplification before. Look at the travesty of Robb and Talisa who get killed because they fell in love compared to Robb and Jeyne, whom he married from his overdeveloped sense of needing to do right by her. Creates two completely different impetuses; blind, foolish, stupid love versus honor. Same thing with why Robert's Rebellion started; they simplified it as being about Lyanna rather than it being related to the burning of her brother and father. I get why D&D thinks they should create these impressions; different media of TV requires oversimplification. Never mind that it creates a totally different impression than from the books. 

[VenezuelanLord]

13 hours ago, Megorova said:

I have my own convoluted theories

Easily. They had their spyes on that ship. Those people either perforated the walls/bottom of the ship, or blasted a barrel of gunpowder in ship's hold, and fled on small boat (beforehand damaging all other boats). Or they killed everyone on board beforehand, then sailed ship towards Storm's End and sunk it (with methods described prior), or made it collide with rocks, or be damaged by striking aground and sink. 

Many people witnessed this. But nobody survived from that ship. Why witnesses didn't save anyone?

Also what is more believable - that their death was staged, or that Staffon Baratheon experienced navigator/seafarer didn't managed to safely moor his ship to harbour of his home shore, where he knew every rock and every frog, and sailed all the way from Essos to Westeros only to drown in front of his home?

I think that place of disaster was intentionally chosen close to Storm's End, that people would witness it happening.

No, he indeed was pissed, but the reason was entirely different.

Tywin promissed them that Robert will get Iron Throne, and Stannis Storm's End, but then what Stannis got was Dragonstone, while Storm's Ends was given to Renly.

I don't know reason why Robert and Stannis wanted to kill their parents, but the reason why their conspiration with Tywin became possible is this:

"When Stannis was no more than four years old, his father took him and his brother Robert to court. There, Stannis believed he saw King Aerys II Targaryen on the Iron Throne, holding court. Stannis was impressed, and he and Robert agreed that the king had been as noble as the dragons were fearsome. It was years later that Steffon told him that it had been Hand of the King Tywin Lannister whom they had seen, as King Aerys had cut himself on the throne earlier that day and Tywin had taken over for him."

Both Robert and Stannis were blindsided by Tywin's greatness, since times when they were kids. Thus later he easily got into their heads and "poisoned" them.

Or he didn't fail. He found fiancee for Rhaegar. But his letter with this news, addresses to King, was given to King's Hand Tywin, who then acted accordingly to his own plans. He sent message to Baratheon brothers that they should do what is needed.

"Maester Cressen remembers how Lord Steffon had written to him a fortnight before his return, stating that he had found a splendid fool in Volantis who would delight Robert and who might even teach Stannis how to laugh, in time".

Theory about this letter: true meaning of this message that was addressed to Baratheon brothers is that Steffon is already killed by No one - splendid fool from Volantis, whose name is Patchface, and that Robert and Stannis should be there on shore in time to witness shipwreck. Patchface was the only survivor of that shipwreck, because he was the one who caused it.

Also he was washed up on shore three days later, because after he damaged ship he swamed to shore in a boat, reported to Tywin, prepared for new assigment, and only then pretended that he was just now washed ashore.

That No one was hired by Tywin. And later he was assigned to spy on B brothers, and if they will even tell anyone, or try to tell anyone about their conspiracy with Tywin, then Patchface should kill them. Later Robert came to KL and became King, so he was close to Tywin and there was no need to spy on him there. So No one stayed with Stannis.

In Clash of Kings Patchface drunk remnants of poisoned wine given to Melisandre, and died. In Storm of Swords Davos finds Patchface on Dragonstone playing with Shireen and Edric Storm. In Dance with Dragons Melisandre tells Jon Snow that she has glimpsed the fool in her flames and considers him dangerous. <- That info is from wikia.

My theories may be crazy, but the book itself is crazier.

this is the most idiotic thing ive ever read... how in gods Almighty fuck would 2 childre, put together such a plan to murder their own beloved fathers, wich didnt mistreated them, showered them with love.. just why? because tywin its pretty?

Robert was 16 at the time, Stannis 14 and Renly was a babe of 1 year, old, surely the master mind... i swear to god these trolls aint even trying

BTW the one who drank Mel´s poison was Cressen, and he died, Patchface suffers from a condition called, being dead by drowning several minutes and having your brain fucked up

[Mikkel]

10 minutes ago, VenezuelanLord said:

this is the most idiotic thing ive ever read... how in gods Almighty fuck would 2 childre, put together such a plan to murder their own beloved fathers, wich didnt mistreated them, showered them with love.. just why? because tywin its pretty?

I can only imagine that the people who come up with this kind of thing are trolling.

Of course, every first, second and even twentieth-tier theory has already been brought up and discussed to death a long time ago, so to come up with something new, you have to go into the realms of completely unsupported idiocy (aka bad fan fiction).

[Megorova]

36 minutes ago, VenezuelanLord said:

how in gods Almighty fuck would 2 childre, put together such a plan to murder their own beloved fathers, wich didnt mistreated them, showered them with love..

Plan was made by Tywin, not by B brothers.

And when their parents died Robert was 16, and Stannis 14. They were NOT children.

In books Jon went to join Night's Watch when he was between 14 and 15. And he became Lord Commander when he was 17.

By the time future king Aerys was 15, he was already married and had his first child Rhaegar.

Jaime became Kingsguard when he was 15.

Robb Stark became King and died when he was 16.

Arya came to Braavos and joined Faceless Men when she was 11 or 13.

Don't compare children of Planetos with same aged children of modern Earth. That's just stupid.

Also there's no any information about relationship between B Brothers and their parents. You don't know whether they showered them with love, or mistreated and abused them.

There's ZERO information.

But what we do know, is that someone as cunning as Tywin Lannister can easily get in someone's head, get in between family members, and clash them against each other.

Good example of same handiwork would be how Little Finger nearly made Arya and Sansa to kill each other, or at least made them seriously thinking about doing so, even though originally Starks were a strong family, and loved each other.

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just why? because tywin its pretty?

Is THAT how you understood what I wrote?

He wasn't pretty, he impressed them with his greatness, his power, his abilityes as a ruler, and so on. First time they saw him, he was carved into their minds. Years later they met again, and by that time Tywin was already actively working on overthrowing Aerys.

Originally Tywin, Aerys and Steffon were best friends. Also Steffon was Aerys' cousin. 

But later their relationship deteriorated:

"

In his paranoia, Aerys believed that Tywin and Rhaegar had conspired to have him killed by storming Duskendale, so Rhaegar would ascend the Iron Throne and marry Tywin's daughter.

To prevent such conspiracies between Rhaegar and Tywin, Aerys summoned his old childhood friend, Lord Steffon Baratheon, to court, making him a member of the small council. Aerys publically announced Steffon would go to Volantis, to find a bride for Rhaegar of "proud Valyrian blood". The fact that Aerys entrusted this task to Steffon instead of Tywin or Rhaegar caused many to whisper that Aerys intended to make Steffon his new Hand of the King, upon the successful completion of this mission, and that Aerys planned to have Lord Tywin arrested and executed for high treason.

"

To prevent that, Tywin offed Steffon. Robert and Tywin conspired together. Tywin made certain promises to B brothers for their assistance.

Why do you think after Rebellion, Robert married with Cersei? Just because Tywin was rich? THAT'S stupid. He had thousands people that pledged to him, so he could've used them to defeat Lannisters, and take their gold. Or to exile all Lannisters to Night's Watch, and take their gold. There was no need to marry with Cersei. Also Tywin served as Aerys' Hand for over 20 years, and many people said that Seven Kingdoms were actually rulled by Tywin. So if he was such a bad person, why did Robert let him stay as Warden of the West, instead of executing, or exiling him, and taking his money?

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this is the most idiotic thing ive ever read...

If you don't get complicity of certain theory, doesn't mean that that theory is idiotic.

Farfetched? Ok. But idiotic? Nah.

[WSmith84]

Didn't Steffon Baratheon die in a storm? Their ship was caught up in it and smashed it against the rocks? Or am I misremembering?

[RhaenysBee]

21 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

LOL classic rant as always... plus whenever a Rhaegar fan admits that yeah he kind of did fuck up a little (not that it is by any means unforgiveable or make him the worst man on earth, it just means he was capable of fucking up just like every other person in Planetos) it brings a smile to my face.

Taking me a minute to calm down from laughing so hard.  I agree here.  I've seen some book readers (I've also read the books) state with certainty that Ned knew exactly what had happened and regretted the rebellion but I don't think that's necessarily the case.  We purposefully are not given enough information by GRRM to deduce it because if GRRM had spelled it out in black and white then it wouldn't have been as interesting of a story for us all to have theories about.  Maybe Wylla and Ashara were able to fill in some details but even if Ned knew (1) Lyanna went willingly, (2) Lyanna married Rhaegar, and (3) Elia Martell and her family supported this marriage (which I don't necessarily believe) then he still would be very confused as to why they didn't care to tell anyone this.  He was heartbroken by his sister's death, sure, but probably thought she acted immaturely and was remorseful and still somewhat angry at Rhaegar and Lyanna for putting their families and the realm through this.  He may have accepted that they loved each other, but ultimately Rhaegar knew better than to not tell anyone what was going on and Ned had to still be confused and hurt by that.

Yeah  I surprise myself sometimes too. Seriously, I never thought Rhaegar didn't fuck up a little. He did. But the responsibility of what happened is most certainly shared and isn't on Rhaegar's shoulder alone. Lyanna, Brandon Stark and Aerys are Tier 1 sharers of the responsibility and Ned, Robert and Jon Arryn are Tier 2. Putting Lyanna's and Aerys's share on Rhaegar is stupid. I understand that Lyanna was 15, but a) you are a legal adult at 16 in Westeros and 1 year is hardly a difference b.) it's not unreasonable to expect a 15 year old person to understand the basic consequeces of eloping from home and marrying someone in secret in spite of being already betrothed. And it's really really not Rhaegar's fault that Aerys is mad. 

It's quite interesting that Ned never had a negative thought about Rhaegar, this was a huge clue for R+L back in the days when it was still only a theory. So even if he resented him for what happened and took his friend's side, Ned understood that "all this" wasn't just Rhaegar's fault and didn't shift Aerys or Lyanna's responsibility to him, which is more than readers do.

21 hours ago, TwiceBorn said:

Nicely written but you missed one:

expectations: "Hi Jon this is Aerys speaking I just offed two Starks in one go, would you kindly send me the remaining one and his pal Robert, so I can make another barbecue?" "Yes sure, you're the boss."
reality: "I shouldn't have threatened my boys you sick f**k, now I'm coming for you!"

Rash decision? Badly informed?

Yeah, I'm not quite clear about that part of the story, but Jon could have said, take a deep breath, let's count to ten and let's talk about this before we off even more people.