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Did ned stark know that roberts rebellion was started on a lie?

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55 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If it had become known that it was a consensual elopement, and that the High Septon had annulled the marriage to Elia, then there would still have been a shitstorm.  Robert Baratheon and the Martells would have been furious, and gravely insulted.  And, the Starks might very well have been angry that the marriage alliance which they'd negotiated with the Barathheons had just been thrown away.  So, one would probably have still seen angry noblemen converging on Kings Landing, only to be burned by Aerys.

GRRM has shown us this before when Lyonel Baratheon challenged the Crown to single combat because Duncan married Jenny and not his daughter. Egg was relatively sane (at that point) and didn't have Lyonel arrested because its clear Duncan made the error. Lyonel was beaten and house Baratheon got a Rhaelle as compensation. It not being the first time it happened is another consideration

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53 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

I think the only one who really wanted to go to war with the targs over lyanna (excluding the starks of course) was robert. He was obsessed with lyanna even though he was in love with an idea not the actual women since he only met her a few times  and he didn't know anything about her except what ned told him.

Robert did not start the war though, it's like he would've been arguing vehemently for war if he was invited to counsel (and as Lord Paramount of the Stormlands I can't imagine he didn't), but Robert and Ned both had exactly two choices: Rebel or die. So whatever their motivations for rebelling were, it doesn't really matter. If they had known Lyanna had not, in fact, been kidnapped then maybe they would've been less angry, but I can't imagine that would sway Aerys very much. Aerys being a nutter really is the be-all, end-all reason for the rebellion, all the rest is just tinder to his roaring bonfire of crazy (fire-related puns intended).

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Let's try and remember the story in the show is really dumbed down so it's easy for television audiences to accept that Lyanna's kidnapping/willful participation was the reason for Robert's Rebellion.  It may not have been the exact moment when the North, Vale, Riverlands and Stormlands actually rebelled, but it was defintely an event that was part of the reason why the rebellion happened.  

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One of three options:

1. He never knew.

2. He realised everything after finding Lyanna.

3. He learned truth before reunion with Lyanna, but after death of other Starks. Someone told him. Also the same source provided him with information about Lyanna's whereabouts.

 

Did ROBERT knew?

It's possible that everything was plotted by Lannisters, and even Robert wasn't aware that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped.

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5 hours ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

 

Why did Lyanna not send a raven ahead to Riverrun for Brandon? If it was all so consensual why no communication of it?

 

Two things about this statement.

1.  Brandon was not at Riverrun to receive a message.  He left Riverrun to join up with his father's wedding party coming to the wedding, it was on his way back to Riverrun that he got word that Lyanna was gone.  He rushed off to Kings Landing with his boys, a better question is why is father did not stop him knowing his temperament(Brandon was not the most level headed) and knowing Aerys would be there as well and he was totally nuts.

2. There was already animosity between Rhaegar and Brandon, at the tourney at Harrenhall Brandon wanted to kick Rhaegar's ass, part of that was probably because Rhaegar beat him in the joust but he had to be restrained when Rhaegar gave Lyanna the flowers and title of queen of love and beauty.

I think it is safe to say that if she sent word to Riverrun and the message got there and was received by Rickard and Brandon that says " I am not going to marry the man you chose for me,  I am in love with Rhaegar, who I know Brandon has a problem with, but I am going to marry him and not Robert.  I hope you understand, Lyanna ."  Brandon still would have been fuming and might have gone off to kings landing anyway.

Robert's rebellion may have come to be known for being started with Lyanna's disappearance, but it was really a war for survival.  That was the true basis of the war for Ned and Robert the line that Cersei delivered in Eastwatch summed it up perfectly; they could fight and maybe die or they could submit and surely die.  Aerys was the architect of his and his house's demise, though his actions to unite the Vale, North, and Stormlands , then supplemented by the Riverlands against him.  Robert never went to war because of the broken engagement like others pointed out.  Timeline says that there was a fair amount of time between the disappearance and the raising of banners by Jon Arryn.  

Lets just assume that the rules of travel on the show do not apply.

  • Lyanna and Rhaegar disappear
  • Brandon meets with his father and is heading back to Riverrun when he gets word, he and his boys now head south to KIngs Landing from someplace is the Riverlands, presumably Rickard heads back to Winterfell or onto Riverrun.  When he reaches whichever destination he would probably send word to Robert about what happens and he stays in the Vale.
  • Brandon arrives at King Landing and demands Rhaegar "come out and die"(very stupid)  he and his boys are arrested.  
  • Aerys sends word to Rickard and the others fathers, they all have to travel from the North, this takes time for all of them to arrive in KL.
  • They are all tried, convicted, and executed (except Ethan Glover), Aerys then calls for Robert and Ned's heads
  • Jon Arryn calls in his banners beginning the rebellion.

I saw someone do a comprehensive timeline of these events and this all takes place from start to finish in about 2 months.

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Megorova said:

One of three options:

1. He never knew.

2. He realised everything after finding Lyanna.

3. He learned truth before reunion with Lyanna, but after death of other Starks. Someone told him. Also the same source provided him with information about Lyanna's whereabouts.

 

Did ROBERT knew?

It's possible that everything was plotted by Lannisters, and even Robert wasn't aware that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped.

I'm not sure I understand what the Lannister could have plotted. 

And Robert maintained that he thought Lyanna was kidnapped. I don't think he would've believed Lyanna ran away by her own volition even if Ned told him so. And in the end, since both Rhaegar and Lyanna were dead, there was no point telling Robert anything.

9 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

The mad king killed Rickard and Brandon Stark, he also wanted the heads of Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon. How is it lie? The war started due to the mad king's actions.

Exactly. Had Aerys not done this, the war could've been avoided.

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It is clear that Ned knows that Robert's rebellion is a fraud in the books. His interactions with Robert demonstrate that he found out something really important at the ToJ that changed his mind but only after it was too late.

We are not going to get any more backstory out of the show. That is clear, D&D are leaving that unsaid for GRRM to fill in. They are telling us that it was a lie but no more.

My theory is that Tywin played the role of Littlefinger and deliberately set Areys against Rheagar, Robert against Areys, Areys against the Starks, etc. And he did so because he believed Areys cuckolded him. Which is probably right in the case of C+L.

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8 minutes ago, xander_blackfyre said:

Two things about this statement.

1.  Brandon was not at Riverrun to receive a message.  He left Riverrun to join up with his father's wedding party coming to the wedding, it was on his way back to Riverrun that he got word that Lyanna was gone.  He rushed off to Kings Landing with his boys, a better question is why is father did not stop him knowing his temperament(Brandon was not the most level headed) and knowing Aerys would be there as well and he was totally nuts.

2. There was already animosity between Rhaegar and Brandon, at the tourney at Harrenhall Brandon wanted to kick Rhaegar's ass, part of that was probably because Rhaegar beat him in the joust but he had to be restrained when Rhaegar gave Lyanna the flowers and title of queen of love and beauty.

I think it is safe to say that if she sent word to Riverrun and the message got there and was received by Rickard and Brandon that says " I am not going to marry the man you chose for me,  I am in love with Rhaegar, who I know Brandon has a problem with, but I am going to marry him and not Robert.  I hope you understand, Lyanna ."  Brandon still would have been fuming and might have gone off to kings landing anyway.

Exactly. Considering the events took place in a medieval society, what Lyanna wanted was immaterial. She didn't have her family's consent, that's all that matters.

 

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The Rebellion didn't start on a lie. The main reason was Aerys' madness, and Rhaegar's incompetence on overthrowing his mad father in time before the things gets worse, he waited too long for his father's stupidity and ignored his crimes for too long, and then they had a rebellion in their hands.

Being with Lyanna was the end point, but then Lyanna was promised to the House Baratheon, not House Targaryen. Lyanna should obey his father Rickard Stark and she knew that they wrong and which is why they escaped from all of these.

Not only that Rhaegar was already married, and with another great house. It's really idiotic to expect nothing after all of these, and Rhaegar did nothing to prevent the Rebellion, he just made it worse. He didn't explain anything to anyone else, instead he just took Lyanna to ToJ even when he knew that his father wasn't in any condition where he can keep the peace in the realm, he knew his father better than anyone, yet he choosed to ignore Aerys's madness and let him to deal with the consqeuences.

Rhaegar was selfish, Lyanna was ungrateful to her own House.

 

Ned knew all of these, he knew that Lyanna was stupid and wrong, yet she was still his sister, and he did a last favor to her by taking his bastard as his son. That's all. He had no regret on it, because Rhaegar, Lyanna, and especially Aerys were wrong and the Rebellion was right.

 

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7 minutes ago, hallam said:

My theory is that Tywin played the role of Littlefinger and deliberately set Areys against Rheagar, Robert against Areys, Areys against the Starks, etc. And he did so because he believed Areys cuckolded him. Which is probably right in the case of C+L.

But the Lannisters were on Aerys' side. If Tywin had orchestrated this, shouldn't he have switched sides sooner? 

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41 minutes ago, xander_blackfyre said:

Lets just assume that the rules of travel on the show do not apply.

  • Lyanna and Rhaegar disappear
  • Brandon meets with his father and is heading back to Riverrun when he gets word, he and his boys now head south to KIngs Landing from someplace is the Riverlands, presumably Rickard heads back to Winterfell or onto Riverrun.  When he reaches whichever destination he would probably send word to Robert about what happens and he stays in the Vale.
  • Brandon arrives at King Landing and demands Rhaegar "come out and die"(very stupid)  he and his boys are arrested.  
  • Aerys sends word to Rickard and the others fathers, they all have to travel from the North, this takes time for all of them to arrive in KL.
  • They are all tried, convicted, and executed (except Ethan Glover), Aerys then calls for Robert and Ned's heads
  • Jon Arryn calls in his banners beginning the rebellion.

I saw someone do a comprehensive timeline of these events and this all takes place from start to finish in about 2 months.

Plenty of ravens flying around during this time, though! Let's just say, sometime between the elopement and when a raven flew from the Red Keep to the Eyrie demanding the execution of Ned and Robert, Rhaegar and Lyanna might have been able to come up for air long enough to send a clarifying missive. "We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?"

Instead, they hid out and allowed the realm to descend into civil war, until Rhaegar finally pulled up his pants, strapped on his armor, kissed his pregnant (wife/sister-wife/mistress) goodbye, and headed north to finish killing whatever was left of her family. And still they said nothing!

LOL. The whole thing makes no sense whatsoever. My theory is that poor Ned remained befuddled and confused up until the day the Lannisters took his head, because why wouldn't he be? Lyanna's last words to her brother were, "Promise me, Ned." His last words to his sister were probably, "WTF?!?"

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2 hours ago, hallam said:

It is clear that Ned knows that Robert's rebellion is a fraud in the books. His interactions with Robert demonstrate that he found out something really important at the ToJ that changed his mind but only after it was too late.

We are not going to get any more backstory out of the show. That is clear, D&D are leaving that unsaid for GRRM to fill in. They are telling us that it was a lie but no more.

My theory is that Tywin played the role of Littlefinger and deliberately set Areys against Rheagar, Robert against Areys, Areys against the Starks, etc. And he did so because he believed Areys cuckolded him. Which is probably right in the case of C+L.

In regards to the bolded part, Ned thinks no such thing in the books. He knows Lyanna didn't love Robert but he never thinks RR "is a fraud" as you put it. In fact, he loves Robert for still loving Lyanna after so many years since her passing. Ned tells Robert that he never knew Lyanna as he did and that Robert only saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. Ned knows and realizes that Robert and Lyanna would have been unsuitable for each other, but he never thinks that RR was based on a lie. Ned does think that Robert's hatred of the Targs is an obsession and goes beyond reasonable, and is of course upset he lost so much in the war but does not question their motives for going to war to overthrow Aerys in the books.

And btw Tywin does not have Aerys ear by the time of the Tourney at Harenhall. He has returned back to Casterly Rock by then and is not on speaking terms with Aerys. If you had said Tywin might have been scheming with Rhaegar to depose Aerys at that point, that theory would probably have some merit. And Varys is the one most likely to have whispered in Aerys ears about Rhaegar's true motives for the tourney and his possible collusion with some of the other high lords.

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3 hours ago, RhaenysB said:

Robert's Rebellion wasn't based on a lie, it was based on rash decisions of badly informed people. 

Yes, Lyanna disappeared and somehow someway the Starks found out Rhaegar was behind this.

Expectations: father, brother, please don't worry, I'm perfectly fine. I really don't like Robert because he's a douchebag, so I married this freshly divorced prince. We booked a honeymoon for 9 months in dorne, will send a card, love, lya. Reality: we have received no ravens today, my lord. 

Expectations: Your Grace, our beloved daughter Lyanna disappeared and scouts have spotted a party of Prince Rhaegar near the King's Road. Might the Prince know anything of my daughter? Would your grace be so gracious and shed some light on what happened? Yours gratefully, Rickard Stark. Reality: Brandon rides to KL and starts shouting for the crown prince of the country to come out and die. 

Expectations: Excuse me, boy, who the hell are you and why are you threatening the life of my son and heir? Explain yourself. Realty: let's burn this kid and his father because they threatened my son. (Of course, it was common knowledge that Aerys is mad, so I really have no idea what Brandon Stark thought was going to happen) 

expectations: so father, this was a horrible decision, let's leave the Starks alone because I just married one, they are our allies. Don't worry honey, we'll get rid of the old man as soon as he falls asleep. Reality: *you have reached prince Rhaegar. I'm busy making babies I can name Aegon, please leave a message* 

expectations: at this point there's hardly any hope to save the country from a war, but honorable lord eddard Stark could really have done another round of talking, or he could have hired Ser Ten And Twenty of House Goodmen to search for his sister before going into a nation wide war over misinformation. 

Lol. Thanks for making me laugh so hard, needed that today.

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Lyanna: Ned his name is Aegon Targaryen

Ned:Sis, do you know how much of a damn shit storm thats going on while yall two was on this unannounced extended honeymoon?

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Of course he knew.  

Ned gave vibes he wished he could've made peace with Targaryens, done things differently.  

Like when Jamie told Ned that he stabbed the king who burned his brother, Ned was critical of Jamie.  Ned did not want to kill every last Targ, which is unusual.  Ned was also very uncomfortable around Robert, especially when Robert talked about Lyanna to him.  It's almost like he felt aftervthe fact the rebellion was wrong, ill advised.

But, when Ned accepted the HotK post, he made same mistakes.  As LF put it: Ahh, the Starks! Quick Temper, slow minds!

 

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Well this is how I think it all played out.

R+L ran off, didn't tell anyone they were in love. Robert, Ned, etc. all believed she was kidnapped. Then Brandon and Rickard got roasted. Then war was declared.

Im assuming Ned learned the truth when he visited the ToJ, but probably kept it from Robert to avoid hurting his feelings, we've already seen Ned do that anyways in season 1.

BUT the real reason Roberts rebellion was started was bc of the mad kings murder of Ned's brother and father.

So unless They come out of the woodworks at the end of the show and are like " yo dudes we totally didn't die" it really wasn't baised on a lie.

it was about 50% misinformation and 50% legit.

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9 hours ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

It seems like the showrunners want to let House Targaryen off the hook for the rebellion because their inbred monsters are going to be ruling the roost when its all done.

At best it was started on a 'misunderstanding' of Lyanna's actions but there are still things to consider in the timeline.

Why did Lyanna not send a raven ahead to Riverrun for Brandon? If it was all so consensual why no communication of it?

I do like the theory that Lysa intercepted the raven scroll to manipulate Brandon in revenge for what he did to Littlefinger in the duel. But in no way can we believe that it was Robert's lie. And besides no arms were taken until Brandon and Rickard were killed and Aerys called for Ned and Robert to be executed by association. Also the suggestion Robert lied doesn't make sense to how he genuinely seemed broken by her disappearance. If he knew she ran off willingly I don't think he would be so sentimental. He may still blame Rhaegar but he wouldn't idolise her like he does

^ This. Everything Targaryen is becoming sacrosanct on the show.

In the books, I feel there's more to Brandon's outburst than what we've been given so far. He was a hothead, yes and Ned also blames his wolf blood for his early death. But the man was the heir to WF and should have had at least one level headed person in his entourage. I feel something or someone provoked his response. I'm not discounting that it could just be series of unfortunate events exacerbated by Aerys madness and that would be really tragic. Also, Rhaegar's long absence during this shit storm doesn't make much sense from people's impression of the guy in the books. Besides Lyanna's (a woman know for her grit and being unconventional) total silence is also strange. And I don't think it's because they were star-crossed lovers who forgot the rest of the world or because they were incommunicado. The line that RR was based on a lie fits the rest of the show's illogical storylines. Besides, I always felt that D&D hated Robert and Stannis and would be happy to pile more shit on the Baratheon brothers.

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So let's take it step by step.
 - No one moved a single soldier when Lyanna was "kidnaped"....sure it's an offense but not that big of a deal to go to a war over it, it could be easily been solved with Aerys granting some important marriage to the Starks and Robert, or with lands, tax exemptions, whatever. Problem is, the king is nuts.
 - If Brandon came to KL and formally asked Aerys to intercede with his son so he returns Lyanna, Aerys would had no reason to arrest him, but no, Brandon comes to Red Keep and demands that Rhaegar "come out and die"
 - What Brandon did, is treason to his lord. Aerys had every right to arrest him and call for Rickard to present in KL to explain his son's actions, sentence him and execute him. What invalidates everything is the joke the trial by combat was.
 - If Aerys named and actual opponent, like Hightower or Jaime, and they beat Rickad....it's all still valid "the gods decided who was right in combat", sure the northeners would be mad but the process was normal, non of the other houses would give a damn....but nope, he does the "fire is my champion" crazyness.
 - The final nail in the coffin is when he calls for Ned and Roberts heads, none of them was involved in this business and one of them is not even from the offending house....that's when Jon Arryn has enough and rebels

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