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aryana

Jon's female ancestors

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Do you think season 8 will bring some info about Jon's grandmother and great grandmother on the Stark side? Or any other important female ancestors of not so long ago? I'm pretty sure at least one of them is Targaryen related; after all, "Robert had a better claim."

Or is that too deep for the show and it would just confuse non-readers? I'm soo hoping for at least a small mention, because I've given up on the books and it's something I would really like to know. Silence speaks volumes.

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34 minutes ago, aryana said:

Do you think season 8 will bring some info about Jon's grandmother and great grandmother on the Stark side? Or any other important female ancestors of not so long ago? I'm pretty sure at least one of them is Targaryen related; after all, "Robert had a better claim."

Or is that too deep for the show and it would just confuse non-readers? I'm soo hoping for at least a small mention, because I've given up on the books and it's something I would really like to know. Silence speaks volumes.

The Starks don't have Targaryen blood, even diluted. The leaders of the rebellion are/were Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon. Only the last of them has Targaryen blood, and therefore has the better claim to the throne, after all, when everybody with the Targaryen name is killed, a quick look in the family tree will point out that Robbie B is the heir to the Throne.

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Nobody cares about female ancestors, Jon is Rhaegar's legitimate and only surviving child that's enough to make him the heir to the Iron Throne. His mother's side female ancestors are completely irrelevant and uninteresting in both books and show. It doesn't matter. At all. 

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So why is there no mention of those women in the books? We get the whole family tree of Jon Arryn "heirs", names of plenty other minor houses nad houses of their wives, but not a single word about Ned Stark's mother? Wives and mothers of the Wardens of the North?

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There is a Dunk & Egg book in the works called "The She-Wolves of Winterfell" which will cover some Stark women a few generations back. Likely Ned's granny.

The show won't go into any such family tree trivia, too hard to explain and doesn't really add much.

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15 hours ago, aryana said:

Do you think season 8 will bring some info about Jon's grandmother and great grandmother on the Stark side? Or any other important female ancestors of not so long ago? I'm pretty sure at least one of them is Targaryen related; after all, "Robert had a better claim."

Or is that too deep for the show and it would just confuse non-readers? I'm soo hoping for at least a small mention, because I've given up on the books and it's something I would really like to know. Silence speaks volumes.

I doubt there will be anything in S8.

Meanwhile, from the novels and WoIaF:

  • Lyanna's mother is is Lyarra Stark.
  • Lyanna's paternal grandmother is Mama Locke. The Lockes seem to be an old and very loyal but not that powerful Northern house who the Starks have married into at least one time before.
  • Lyanna's maternal grandmother is Arya Flint, of the mountain Flints. The Starks don't seem to marry into the mountain clans very often, but it was a fifth son she married, so it's not too surprising.
  • The lines merge at Beron Stark and Lorra Royce. That implies that Rickard wasn't the only Stark from history to think of making alliances across the Bite, but then we already knew that. Lorra will probably be the Stark widow-to-be in She-Wolves of Winterfell.
  • Beron's mother Alys Karstark will probably also be in that story, along with three other old Stark women whose identities we don't know yet.

Anyway, there's almost no chance of any Targ ancestry here.

The only place there could be an actual Targaryen daughter would be in the few generations between Torrhen, the King who Kneeled, and the first Lord Benjen. That seems very unlikely, but we don't have a full family tree there, so I can't say it's impossible.

There could be a Targaryen maternal granddaughter or something via Lorra, since the Royces frequently intermarry with the Arryns, and I think Targs married Arryns a couple times, but that seems even less likely.

Either way, even if it were true, that would be such a distant connection that nobody would reach for it even in desperation to find an heir among the rebels; there are countless people much more closely related (and a much better primogenitive fit).

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I once had a minor idea that while all three heads of the dragon may have Targaryen blood it would actually be their Blackwood blood that was the deciding factor in their hero abilities. Jon's got it on both sides. Dany and any other Targs or part-Targs have it from Aegon V's queen.

7 minutes ago, falcotron said:

There could be a Targaryen maternal granddaughter or something via Lorra, since the Royces frequently intermarry with the Arryns, and I think Targs married Arryns a couple times, but that seems even less likely.

Princess Daella married Rodrik Arryn but they only had one child, Aemma who married her cousin Viserys I. There are no current Arryns with Targaryen blood.

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11 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I once had a minor idea that while all three heads of the dragon may have Targaryen blood it would actually be their Blackwood blood that was the deciding factor in their hero abilities. Jon's got it on both sides. Dany and any other Targs or part-Targs have it from Aegon V's queen.

Princess Daella married Rodrik Arryn but they only had one child, Aemma who married her cousin Viserys I. There are no current Arryns with Targaryen blood.

Fun idea about the Blackwoods..

Has it been confirmed that Aemma is the only child of Rodrik and Daella?  I know that's what the wiki says for both parents, but the sourcing is Jaehaerys I in the World Book.  Quickly skimming my own copy, I assume this is referring to the inset on Jaehaerys' children on pg. 64 - for Daella it states "Wed to Lord Rodrik Arryn in 80 AC, Daella died in childbed after delivering to him a daughter, Aemma."

Just wondering because I've always thought this was not conclusive, and might help explain why Rhaegel (Daeron II's son) married an Arryn.

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6 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Fun idea about the Blackwoods..

Has it been confirmed that Aemma is the only child of Rodrik and Daella?  I know that's what the wiki says for both parents, but the sourcing is Jaehaerys I in the World Book.  Quickly skimming my own copy, I assume this is referring to the inset on Jaehaerys' children on pg. 64 - for Daella it states "Wed to Lord Rodrik Arryn in 80 AC, Daella died in childbed after delivering to him a daughter, Aemma."

Just wondering because I've always thought this was not conclusive, and might help explain why Rhaegel (Daeron II's son) married an Arryn.

Hmm. Maybe it hasn't been confirmed then. The wording doesn't entirely imply that Aemma was their only child, but you'd think if there were sons they should be mentioned. Unless GRRM is keeping it a secret and the endgame is Sweetrobin or Timmet on the IT.

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2 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Timmet on the IT.

Well, if Dany insists that only Targs can ride dragons, and then she and Jon both die, Tyrion can find the best heir is by using Drogon to test all claimants. And maybe one of the descendants of dragonseed Nettles, the fire-witch of the Burned Men, will show up. The Burned Men fear nothing. Timett son of Timett with ride on the dragons.

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23 hours ago, RhaenysB said:

His mother's side female ancestors are completely irrelevant and uninteresting in both books and show. It doesn't matter. At all. 

True. A bit blunt, but true.

23 hours ago, aryana said:

So why is there no mention of those women in the books? We get the whole family tree of Jon Arryn "heirs", names of plenty other minor houses nad houses of their wives, but not a single word about Ned Stark's mother? Wives and mothers of the Wardens of the North?

See above. They don't play a role. You're overthinking it.

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1 minute ago, falcotron said:

Well, if Dany insists that only Targs can ride dragons, and then she and Jon both die, Tyrion can find the best heir is by using Drogon to test all claimants. And maybe one of the descendants of dragonseed Nettles, the fire-witch of the Burned Men, will show up. The Burned Men fear nothing. Timett son of Timett will ride on the dragons.

It is known.

Alys Rivers is another candidate for the fire witch. Of course I like Nettles better for this, because I can't stand Aemond One-Eye and don't want him to be Timmet's draconic ancestor.

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23 hours ago, aryana said:

So why is there no mention of those women in the books? We get the whole family tree of Jon Arryn "heirs", names of plenty other minor houses nad houses of their wives, but not a single word about Ned Stark's mother? Wives and mothers of the Wardens of the North?

TWOIAF has a nice Stark family tree. If you look up Cregan Stark on the wiki it should be on his page.

The reason we get no particular info on Ned's mother is because other than giving birth to her children she has zero impact on the story. When asked about her, what was her name, what happened to her, etc, GRRM replied "Lady Stark. She died." Of course later on we learned that her name was Lyarra Stark and she was a cousin to Rickard.

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23 hours ago, aryana said:

We get the whole family tree of Jon Arryn "heirs"

Jon Arryn's only child is likely to die without producing any heirs, so the Vale Lords had to trace his family tree to figure out that a doubly-maternal second cousin from a knightly house is the best heir. So those Arryn women are important to the plot.

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1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

It is known.

Alys Rivers is another candidate for the fire witch. Of course I like Nettles better for this, because I can't stand Aemond One-Eye and don't want him to be Timmet's draconic ancestor.

Does anyone like Aemond One-EYe?  I've had TWOIAF since it came out, but am now only finally fully reading it.  I've seen posts about Nettles and the fire-witch possibility.  I would look up things of interest in the book, but I am now only reading in through.  I'm kinda stuck on The Reach section, it's kinda boring, LOL  Almost finished that section and moving on, soon. 

 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

TWOIAF has a nice Stark family tree. If you look up Cregan Stark on the wiki it should be on his page.

The reason we get no particular info on Ned's mother is because other than giving birth to her children she has zero impact on the story. When asked about her, what was her name, what happened to her, etc, GRRM replied "Lady Stark. She died." Of course later on we learned that her name was Lyarra Stark and she was a cousin to Rickard.

George and his sense of humor, LOL 

I can't imagine the show telling us much of anything about Jon's female ancestors.  Hell, notice how they never really even mention Dany's mom?  It's all Mad King stuff, nothing about Rhaella. 

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Jon is unique in that his father's parents were both Targaryens, and his mother's parents were both Starks. I suspect there may some mystical significance to that, which contributed to him being Azor Ahai and the Prince who was Promised.

 

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5 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Hmm. Maybe it hasn't been confirmed then. The wording doesn't entirely imply that Aemma was their only child, but you'd think if there were sons they should be mentioned. Unless GRRM is keeping it a secret and the endgame is Sweetrobin or Timmet on the IT.

Oh sure it's certainly a longshot.  In all likelihood its just a neglect to specify.  But I like the idea of the Arryn's having Targ blood - while it makes sense it annoys me that most of the houses that may have Targ blood are lesser vassals and the only great houses are Baratheon and Martell.  I also think it'd be cool if Jon Arryn actually did have a claim to the throne, however remote.  Anyway, hope springs eternal - just wanted to clarify if there was something I wasn't aware of, thanks!

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1 hour ago, dmc515 said:

Oh sure it's certainly a longshot.  In all likelihood its just a neglect to specify.  But I like the idea of the Arryn's having Targ blood - while it makes sense it annoys me that most of the houses that may have Targ blood are lesser vassals and the only great houses are Baratheon and Martell.  I also think it'd be cool if Jon Arryn actually did have a claim to the throne, however remote.  Anyway, hope springs eternal - just wanted to clarify if there was something I wasn't aware of, thanks!

There's still time for some surprises. Lady Rhaena married a Hightower lord and had a boatload of daughters and who knows what houses they married into. We don't know who Princess Rhae and Princess Daella married. And there are always the many bastards of Aegon IV and poor little Maegor to consider.

And I just remembered that Elaena had Penrose daughters who could have married well. 

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6 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

There's still time for some surprises. Lady Rhaena married a Hightower lord and had a boatload of daughters and who knows what houses they married into. We don't know who Princess Rhae and Princess Daella married. And there are always the many bastards of Aegon IV and poor little Maegor to consider.

And I just remembered that Elaena had Penrose daughters who could have married well. 

Forgot about Lady Rhaena - good call.  But Penrose was kinda what I was alluding to - the houses most people agree either do or have a strong possibility entail Plumm, Penrose, Tarth, Dondarrion, and obviously Velaryon (and obviously Baratheon and Martell).  Other than the Brienne thing, I DAF about any of those houses, at least as it concerns the current events of ASOIAF.  Obviously, the daughters and daughters of daughters etc. present myriad possibilities, but I say boo to the current lineup of Targ blood houses.  Boo I say!

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