Who told the lie that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna?

[Romaine3]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As of yet that's just a hypothetical scenario but it is more likely than any other idea I've read so far, especially since we know that Aerys actually feared that Rhaegar could rise in rebellion against him.

@Lord Varys your post makes a lot of sense and hypothetically explains a variety of motives. I'm going to go back and read your post again because I didn't see where you mentioned who started the rumor that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped.

Other posters in this thread have tried to disprove my idea that young Benjen was the culprit. I may be wrong in my assumption. However, someone had to enrage Brandon enough to ride to King's Landing and confront the Mad King. I feel that Benjen is the most likely character because of the ease with which one can warp the mind of a child into believing that an innocent situation was really something sinister and vice versa.

Plus, when the war ends, Benjen joins the Night's Watch for some unknown reason. The Night's Watch isn't exactly an ideal choice of lifestyle for a young nobleman with a sterling reputation (unless of course you know nothing like Jon). So my train of thought is that Benjen witnesses the "abduction" and is persuaded to believe that what transpired was an evil act instead of an innocent one. Obviously a master manipulator filled his head with lies, so what he told Brandon spread like wildfire and ignited the war. By spreading this warped version of the truth, Benjen brought disgrace upon House Stark. In the end, Ned Stark showed mercy to his younger brother and allowed him to take the black for spreading the rumor that cost so many people in the realm their lives. 

[SFDanny]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But is he going to believe a story told by Sansa with mad Lysa as a source? Probably not. Not to mention that the whole thing is not necessarily going to convince Littlefinger that Catelyn never loved him.

How would Lysa know of Petyr's supposed sexual encounter with Cat? Complete with details including how he called her Cat during the tryst? Would Littlefinger refuse to believe it? Maybe. But I like to think of Sansa telling him this as she has just put the dagger in his back he so richly deserves.

Doesn't mean I'm right. I think some of the Starks, at least one, will have to meet Lady Stoneheart. Perhaps that includes Littlefinger. I'd like him to explain his role in Ned's death to any of them.

[Ser Petyr Parker]

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

It's not treason to want to fight a proper duel, which does not have to be to the death. But it is treason to directly threaten the life of a member of the royal family.

Brandon did not ride into the Red Keep shouting for Rhaegar to face him in a duel. He rode into the Red Keep shouting for Rhaegar to "come out and die."

Right, and of course the wording was vague, but I wouldn't say he was threatening to murder anyone. Of course he said he would kill Rhaegar, but it's fair to assume he was issuing a challenge. The killing part was just him boasting that he would win. Riding up to a castle and threatening to murder someone inside it is just so stupid you wouldn't assume he meant that at all. Of course he could have been clearer in his wording and not given Aerys an excuse to kill him, but at best Brandon was guilty on a technicality. A different king would have gone a different way, e.g. Baelor Breakspear.

Now I'm imagining Joffrey a few years older with Robert still on the throne. If someone rode up to the Red Keep and demanded a duel with Joffrey while Cersei wasn't around, I'd love to see how that would play out, with Robert practically shoving him out the portcullis, insisting he go and fight.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Romaine3 said:

@Lord Varys your post makes a lot of sense and hypothetically explains a variety of motives. I'm going to go back and read your post again because I didn't see where you mentioned who started the rumor that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped.

Well, I didn't really talk about that.

But it doesn't really matter who exactly told Brandon. The man was defending the honor of his sister. Depending how the abduction happened - which we don't know in detail yet - it is reasonably likely that some Stark guardsmen or men-at-arms witnessed the whole thing and rushed to inform Lord Rickard who was already on his way to the Riverlands for Brandon's wedding. But then they chanced upon Brandon's party who had been racing ahead.

Brandon does not necessarily have to be convinced that Rhaegar was in KL for a certainty. He might have just intended to look for him there, first, and should he not find him there catch a ship for Dragonstone to look for him there.

He could also have intended to demand justice from King Aerys should he not be able to lay his hands on Rhaegar directly.

We don't actually know that Brandon believed that Rhaegar raped or even abducted Lyanna. Robert chose to believe that because he wanted to believed Lyanna was in love with him, not Rhaegar. But Brandon may or may not have known what Lyanna actually felt. But her feelings don't really count. He is her older brother and he and his father decide who she is going to fuck, not she herself.

Brandon is the guy defending the honor of his little sister - and subsequently also the honor of his house - against the man who wants to make Lyanna his whore and the Starks a laughingstock in the eyes of the Baratheons and the Realm. After all, Prince Rhaegar is a married man with two children of his own. His interest in Lyanna cannot be sincere. He is following in the footsteps of his royal father and Aegon the Unworthy there.

At least that's what Brandon (and Robert, too, most likely, and perhaps even Ned) would have believed.

And Brandon's very character is enough to explain to us why he would ran amok the way he did. He doesn't have to be enraged. He was already enraged by the crowning incident - any report about Rhaegar laying his hands on Lyanna certainly should be enough to make him snap.

6 hours ago, SFDanny said:

How would Lysa know of Petyr's supposed sexual encounter with Cat? Complete with details including how he called her Cat during the tryst?

Didn't Littlefinger brag about that whole thing at court? Lysa lived there for years, she must have heard about it. She just never bothered to correct Littlefinger's delusion.

6 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Would Littlefinger refuse to believe it? Maybe. But I like to think of Sansa telling him this as she has just put the dagger in his back he so richly deserves.

In that sense I think Sansa telling Littlefinger that wouldn't be enough. Although I think Littlefinger should first lose Sansa, permanently, before he is finally confronted by Catelyn. I mean, she is likely the only one who figured out by now how he betrayed her and her family. She is the only one who really knows about the letter - yes, Lysa rambled on about that one, too, as well as the Tears of Lys but Sansa doesn't know that her mother received a letter from Lysa so she might not really grasp what exactly that meant. Not to mention the dagger lie, something only Catelyn might know, too. And Tyrion, of course.

6 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Doesn't mean I'm right. I think some of the Starks, at least one, will have to meet Lady Stoneheart. Perhaps that includes Littlefinger. I'd like him to explain his role in Ned's death to any of them.

Well, the real issue is more Ned's execution rather than his betrayal. He could easily enough find an excuse for the latter. Didn't Sansa betray her father to Cersei? And doesn't Littlefinger know that? So if Sansa ever confronts him about that can't he turn the dagger around and twist it in her belly by telling her that he was determined and prepared to ensure her father's success when Cersei's men came for him and threatened to kill him if he didn't support them.

But Littlefinger's role in the execution should be rather difficult to uncover. Only Slynt and Payne may know about that, and the former is dead while the latter can neither speak nor write.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

The role of women in that society sometimes can be really small (unless they are ruling the house (due to the lack of male heirs or all the males are leading armies in the wars).

If a waman left her home without the consent of her family, it would be considered that she was kidnapped, unlike men, women couldn't do whatever they please.

So Lyanna disappearing was considered kidnapping and I am quite sure someone probably saw it and told Brandon what happened. There are theories that Littlefinger did that, so he could cause Brandon's death and so Catelyn would be free from her betrothal.

But I don't know, Littlefinger was a young lad during the rebellion (probably 15 or 16), I don't know how he would know Lyanna was with Rhaegar, I am quite sure he had no spies at the time.

[Lord Varys]

51 minutes ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

But I don't know, Littlefinger was a young lad during the rebellion (probably 15 or 16), I don't know how he would know Lyanna was with Rhaegar, I am quite sure he had no spies at the time.

He doesn't even have many spies now. Littlefinger uses agents and go-betweens to manipulate other people and do his dirty work, but he isn't running some vast spy network. He just knows how to influence the people in power.

Back shortly after his defeat at Brandon's hands he wouldn't have had the resources to do anything. And even if he had them his heart would have still burned with a black fury, causing him to actually have Brandon killed rather than manipulating him into getting himself killed.

That is Littlefinger's later modus operandi, a lesson Brandon taught him. But it most likely took quite some time for him to actually reach the conclusion that he had to use much more subtle means to get what he wanted. After all, the man was an idealist, once, and the fact that his fight for true love ended as badly as it did is a real tragedy.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 9/3/2017 at 0:01 AM, Graydon Hicks said:

its just that even though this is teh real reason for the war, when everyone, especially robert baratheon looks back on it, they look beyond aerys killing rickard and brandon, to rhaegar crowning lyanna at harrenhal, then running off with her a year later. and for robert, thats the reason for the war, rhaegar ran off with the woman robert wanted to marry. he made it into a personal grudge between himself and rhaegar, and then extended it to all targaryens, regardless of level of involvement.

Yes, Robert has rather romanticized everything in retrospect. If he was going to look at things objectively, he would have to remember that he didn't do a thing until his own head was called for (appropriate, but not romantic), and he was most certainly not faithful to his precious Lyanna during the war he says he was fighting to get her back. Robert remembers things the way he wants to remember them.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 9/3/2017 at 3:36 AM, Ser Petyr Parker said:

Right, and of course the wording was vague, but I wouldn't say he was threatening to murder anyone. Of course he said he would kill Rhaegar, but it's fair to assume he was issuing a challenge. The killing part was just him boasting that he would win. Riding up to a castle and threatening to murder someone inside it is just so stupid you wouldn't assume he meant that at all. Of course he could have been clearer in his wording and not given Aerys an excuse to kill him, but at best Brandon was guilty on a technicality. A different king would have gone a different way, e.g. Baelor Breakspear.

Now I'm imagining Joffrey a few years older with Robert still on the throne. If someone rode up to the Red Keep and demanded a duel with Joffrey while Cersei wasn't around, I'd love to see how that would play out, with Robert practically shoving him out the portcullis, insisting he go and fight.

My main point is that Brandon KNOWS the king is batshit crazy, and yet he takes no care in choosing his words. It wouldn't even take a crazy king to take "come out and die" as a threat. It would just take one who's willing to use anything to his own advantage or take anything as a slight. Really, how hard would it have been for Brandon to ride into the Red Keep shouting "Rhaegar, defend yourself!" instead? Or "Come out and face me, you coward!" instead? Or even "Rhaegar, you shit, duel me if you dare!"?

LOL at Robert shoving Joffrey out to fight! 

[Jaak]

World of Ice and Fire specifies details.

10 leagues from Harrenhal. Rhaegaer with 6 other men, including Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent.

[Graydon Hicks]

4 hours ago, Jaak said:

World of Ice and Fire specifies details.

10 leagues from Harrenhal. Rhaegaer with 6 other men, including Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent.

i think we can safely assume that where rhaegar met up with lyanna was on the riverroad, which runs through that radius.

[Jaak]

On 9/5/2017 at 6:00 AM, Graydon Hicks said:

i think we can safely assume that where rhaegar met up with lyanna was on the riverroad, which runs through that radius.

Not completely safe to assume. When Sansa was permitted to go for a ride with just the 12 year old Crown Prince, no Hound, no servants, no witnesses when they had an untoward encounter, they were having fun off the road.

[Forlong the Fat]

The interesting question to me is: at what point did Ned know it was a lie and continue to actively or passively perpetuate it?  It seems clear he knew after TOJ, yet he  never said anything to Robert about it--in GOT Robert talks about R raping L, says he dreams of killing R every night, etc., and Ned never speaks up to point out that, actually, it was a romance.  His motivation may be, in part, to preserve his presumed promise to L and protect Jon, but that doesn't seem terribly compelling--couldn't he tell Robert that it was not a kidnapping and leave out the fact that L had a child? 

It is possible that Ned, Brandon, and Rickard all knew from the start that L went willingly--as people have mentioned above, her consent wouldn't make much difference to them as R's actions would still violate their right to promise and deliver L to Robert. In other words, they would  be likely to be angry and demand her return in either case. But the idea of the kidnapping and rape certainly inflamed Robert. So it could be that the false story was helpful to the Starks (and perhaps more specifically to Rickard and Jon Arryn--if there really is something to Southron Ambitions) insofar as it motivated Robert to kill Raeghar. And the truth might also have interfered with their plans, as Robert might have refused L if he knew she preferred R. 

In any case, it seems that there is a stark half-truth or outright manipulation at the heart of all this.  And that's an interesting, very GRRM, "graying" of the Stark story.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Ned doesn't tell the truth about how Rickard died either. He lets Catelyn and his children believe that he as beheaded. I get why he would withhold this kind of information because it's gruesome AF. Catelyn found out the true story from Jaime. 

I find it mainly sad for the kid who grew up hearing the story about the prince who kidnapped and raped his aunt. Pretty much tells me all I need to know about Ned never intending on telling Jon the truth. 

1 hour ago, Forlong the Fat said:

But the idea of the kidnapping and rape certainly inflamed Robert.

I think that Robert knew on some level that Lyanna went willingly. At one point he's tells Ned that he killed Rhaegar, but Rhaegar won anyway because he has Lyanna while Robert is stuck with Cersei. What kind of afterlife allows the abuser to be reunited with his victim and spend all eternity with them? If Rhaegar did all the things Robert accuses him of having down then he should be in some special kind of hell, not with the woman he allegedly victimized. 

Robert won on the Trident, so he gets to say whatever he wants about the things Rhaegar did, whether he believes them to be true or not. But that moment with Ned always felt genuine enough, like he let his guard down for a second. 

[Jaak]

7 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Ned doesn't tell the truth about how Rickard died either. He lets Catelyn and his children believe that he as beheaded. I get why he would withhold this kind of information because it's gruesome AF. Catelyn found out the true story from Jaime.

And that´s weird.

It´s canon statement, yes.

In book, the only express witnesses of the deaths were Aerys, some pyromancers, Jaime and Gerold. Possibly others, but no specifics. In show, Jaime specifies that 500 noble people watched and no one spoke out. But that´s show, not in books.

In books, where is it stated that Ned knew how Rickard died? Is it consistent with evidence if they were killed in front of narrow circle of Aerys´ intimates, and Eddard never learned how?

Assuming that the show is correct and that the executions were in open court with many noble witnesses who brought word - why would Catelyn not have known?

Yes, Ned is quiet, and has reason not to tell gruesome details. But Hoster only joined Robellion after several months of it.

And Hoster had some difficulties persuading Riverlands lords to rebel. As it was, Whents and Darries stayed loyal to King and Walder Frey was Late.

For Hoster in the first months of Robellion before joining and marrying Catelyn to Ned would have been the time to gain his lords´ support to rebellion.

And making the gruesome details of Brandon´s fate a topic of table talk at Riverrun in front of Catelyn would have worked towards that. This way, he could answer the objection that Brandon was justly punished for seeking Rhaegaer´s death - by responding that the cruelty was excessive even for that.

 

Incidentally... if by some luck Petyr had won and killed Brandon, would Hoster have married Catelyn to Petyr?

[glassgardens]

The kidnapping is true. The raping and malice part is the lie.

Lyanna, the Knight of the Laughing Tree, was being hunted by Aerys. There was a price on her head. Rhaegar grabbed her before Aerys could get to her first and hid her to keep her safe.

Things escalated from there. R&L fell in love, got married, made Jon. Bobby B had a conniption, Brandon Stark yelled at Aerys and got executed, etc etc war.

[glassgardens]

On 8/29/2017 at 2:41 PM, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

Who gets profit from it?

Aerys.

Who serves Aerys?

Varys.

Now continue to blame Mocking Bird.

I am shooketh.

It would be completely in character for Aerys to have his own son/heir/crown prince killed in battle if he suspected the son of betraying him.

That son of a bitch killed Jon's daddy. Forever useless Bobby B was just the blunt instrument.

[Jaak]

13 hours ago, glassgardens said:

The kidnapping is true. The raping and malice part is the lie.

Lyanna, the Knight of the Laughing Tree, was being hunted by Aerys. There was a price on her head. Rhaegar grabbed her before Aerys could get to her first and hid her to keep her safe.

Pretty much nonsense.

Yes, Knight of Laughing Tree was wanted.

Suppose that Aerys was crazy enough to act against Lyanna, were she unmasked as the Knight, and close to finding out independent of Rhaegaer.

Then the most effective way to protect her would have been just alert Lyanna, to bolt back to North. If North knew Aerys was after Lyanna, she could have hid as a maid anywhere in North. And Brandon would have known she was safe, and let Robert know.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 8/29/2017 at 11:40 AM, Bonkers said:

I couldn't find the topic so I started this one, if you know of a more in-depth one/response please post below...

Obviously my question is who told Brandon Stark that Lyanna had been kidnapped?  We assume from the books (as even Barriston Selmy tells us that singers sing songs of R dying for the woman he loved) that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, so who told the lie to her brother that she was kidnapped?  I doubt Littlefinger had anything to do with it, so who does that leave with any motive?

It was, after all, the reason for the the Rebellion.... could Tywin have made it up to start a war?  Could it be that the meeting he arranged with Rhaegar at Harrenhal failed so he destroyed them?

Im not sure if any one has mentioned it yet, but Ashara Dayne.

I put forth a possible scenario in my thread that Ashara may have been the paramour of Rhaegar and that she was dishonored at Harrenhal when her lover chose a new woman. A jealous and upset Ashara who "looked to Stark" may have tipped the word that Rhaegar had "Kidnapped" Lyanna out of spite and jealousy. 

[Graydon Hicks]

On 9/21/2017 at 3:12 PM, Jaak said:

Not completely safe to assume. When Sansa was permitted to go for a ride with just the 12 year old Crown Prince, no Hound, no servants, no witnesses when they had an untoward encounter, they were having fun off the road.

not that far from it, not with the entire entourage camping roadside. they likely wouldnt have gone more than a mile or two from road, not with sansa so prim on being a proper lady, and proper ladies dont go traipsing about the woods. now lyanna was not a proper lady, but neither would she have had any reason to leave the highway, not until she actually met with rheagar.