Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Nerevanin

Book readers: Which events from S7 will happen in the books? [spoilers]

Recommended Posts

On 8/29/2017 at 3:06 PM, Nerevanin said:

So season 7 is over and we are well past the books. My question is which events from season 7, if any, will happen in the books in your opinion? Let's just theorize wildly! :)

 

My theories:

- LF trying to pit Sansa against one of her siblings (my guess is Rickon though, not Arya) which will be the boundary she won't want to cross and which will make her get rid of him, eventually passing the sentence herself. On the other hand, I think that she will set up a real trap for him and not relying on what Bran does or doesn't say. I've always imagined LF dying at Wintefell, so that too.

- Rhaegar and Lyanna were really married

- one of dragons somehow dying in such a way that the NK will rise it.

- NK, WW and wights breaching the Wall

- Cersei's pregnancy - not completely sure about this but it seemed to me like such an improbable plottwist that I'm inclined to say that it comes from GRRM

- Euron making alliance with Cersei

I would say probably very little of what actually happened in season 7 will happen in the books other than the following:

-Euron making an alliance with Cersei.

-The Others breaking through the Wall.

What will happen in the books that did not happen on the show:

-Death of Sansa Stark.

-Death of Arya Stark.  But this will happen in the last book.

-Jon's death and second life in his wolf

-Dany will get two "wingmen" to guard her side, i.e. there will be two other dragon riders.  My best guess, Aegon and Tyrion.  Dany on Drogon, Aegon on Rhaegal, and Tyrion on Viserion.

What happened on the show that will not happen in the books:

-Death of Viserion.  Dany has three bloodriders, three handmaidens, three slave cities, etc.  The pattern continues with her dragons.  She has to have three dragons.

-Arya killing Little Finger.  They are not going to cross paths.  No reason for them to.

-Arya killing all of the Frey men.  That's impossible to do.  The Freys are spread out and very few of them were actually in on the red wedding. 

-Sansa becoming the Lady of Winterfell.  That's just fan service on the show.  Her book arc does not lead her to this.  She will die at the Eyrie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1. 9. 2017 at 6:35 PM, Lord Varys said:

The real Littlefinger would either have killed Bran directly during their conversation or would have immediately taken steps to arrange a mortal accident for him or poison his food. The real Littlefinger is no moron.

And the whole Jon threat also makes no sense. I mean, why should Jon really oppose a Littlefinger-Sansa match? The man saved his ass during the battle against Ramsay. Does't he deserve a reward for this kind of thing? And in the end - shouldn't this intervention on behalf of the Starks not also buy Littlefinger a pardon in the end? Sure, he betrayed Ned and had Lysa poison Jon Arryn and write the letter, but shouldn't his ultimate decision to back the Starks gain him something? Jon also pardoned those traitors who backed the Boltons, right? And even Stannis pardoned those who originally supported Renly, etc.

Well, we can hope that Littlefinger really ends up consummating his relationship with Sansa in the books. That's what he wants and that's at least part of what he is working towards. Not sure if they are going to marry but even that could happen. This whole relationship is very interesting and Sansa doesn't have to go 'dark' to become an accomplished and successful schemer. If you want to do good things Littlefinger's method of manipulation could help you with that, too. Not to mention that Sansa has a lot of enemies she has to get even with - the Lannisters, the Tyrells, etc.

The whole "Jon and overall everyone hates LF" makes no sense, it's so poorly executed in the show. Brienne hates him while she doesn't really have a reason to do so, LF never did anything to her. Jon even refuses to talk with him, although he saved his ass. When LF asks for a reward, Jon looks like he's about to explode. I suppose that I was really naive when I expected (after LF saving Jon in the battle) Jon to be grateful and maybe even offer Sansa's hand to LF as a reward. Even Arya who knows practically nothing about LF looks like "are you effing kidding me that you have this traitor bitch here?!" when she finds out he is in Winterfell and immediately starts to follow him around. Sure, LF did a whole lot of things which are good reasons for the Stark kids (and their allies) to hate him but they are not really aware of any of it.

LF not getting a pardon or a more merciful punishment for his past crimes is so much fanservice. Like, ok, he betrayed your daddy but he saved your life, so maybe you could spare his one? No, Sansa blames him for selling her to the Boltons (which isn't true), killing Lysa (which is true but Lysa would kill Sansa if LF didn't stop her) and betraying Ned (which is true but basically LF was loyal to the king), while she completely forgets about him saving Jon's life (coming with the Vale army), save her life (smuggling her out of KL, killing Lysa, coming with the Vale army) and he even saved Arya's life (not revealing her identity to Tywin). It's just ridiculous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nerevanin said:

The whole "Jon and overall everyone hates LF" makes no sense, it's so poorly executed in the show. Brienne hates him while she doesn't really have a reason to do so, LF never did anything to her. Jon even refuses to talk with him, although he saved his ass. When LF asks for a reward, Jon looks like he's about to explode. I suppose that I was really naive when I expected (after LF saving Jon in the battle) Jon to be grateful and maybe even offer Sansa's hand to LF as a reward. Even Arya who knows practically nothing about LF looks like "are you effing kidding me that you have this traitor bitch here?!" when she finds out he is in Winterfell and immediately starts to follow him around. Sure, LF did a whole lot of things which are good reasons for the Stark kids (and their allies) to hate him but they are not really aware of any of it.

LF not getting a pardon or a more merciful punishment for his past crimes is so much fanservice. Like, ok, he betrayed your daddy but he saved your life, so maybe you could spare his one? No, Sansa blames him for selling her to the Boltons (which isn't true), killing Lysa (which is true but Lysa would kill Sansa if LF didn't stop her) and betraying Ned (which is true but basically LF was loyal to the king), while she completely forgets about him saving Jon's life (coming with the Vale army), save her life (smuggling her out of KL, killing Lysa, coming with the Vale army) and he even saved Arya's life (not revealing her identity to Tywin). It's just ridiculous.

Yeah, and that's most likely what's going to make Littlefinger's ultimate demise in the books utterly and completely different. I mean, Sansa does not only owe him for getting her out of KL and saving her from Lysa, he and she are already accomplices in a growing number of crimes - the death of Lysa, the poisoning of Lord Robert Arryn, and possibly others. That creating a dependency bond there which should be very difficult to break.

And in the books Sansa also betrayed her father to Cersei when she went to her. Littlefinger can use that to his advantage, too, should she learn his role in this whole thing. Ned's actual execution is another matter. That's something he most likely arranged behind everyone's back. But that should be very difficult to uncover.

Sansa might eventually abandon or betray Littlefinger, but I don't think she will kill him or arrange his execution. To do that she would really have to be as twisted as he is because a 'normal person' usually can't ignore the fact that he or she is indebted to another person.

Now, if he ended up raping her or treating her like Ramsay treated her in the show things would different. But that is not how the real Littlefinger treats people he loves. And he very much loves Sansa, he is just confused whether he loves her as a young Catelyn or as the daughter he never had.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/2/2017 at 1:47 PM, SerMudz said:

He's only 68 though and there's no reason to think he's near death. No wonder he gets so offended by fans assuming he's going to pop his clogs anytime 

GRRM probably won't complete the series,  but not due to health issues. Simply put,  his muse has flown out to sea,  and it might never return. I've heard that he hasn't actually written anything in two years. Can't reveal the source of that,  but part of me feels like it's the truth. 

As someone who has been reading these books since GoT was available in hardcover,  circa 1997, this bums me out greatly. However,  i can never begrudge an artist the space they need to create. Or to not create. GRRM is beholden only to himself as far as this story of his is concerned.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 31.8.2017 at 0:34 PM, Dragonsbone said:

"Once you have mastered your gifts, you may look where you will and see what the trees have seen, be it yesterday or last year or a thousand ages past. Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. Certain moths live their whole lives in a day, yet to them that little span of time must seem as long as years and decades do to us. An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one. Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood. The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves."

So obviously he learns in the books to do so. 

I think the last sentence refers to his warging abilities. That would not allow him to look in the past. Or only in the past an animal, beast or human being he wargs has seen. He might still be able to figure out R+L=J. But different than in the show. I guess he will see the wedding ceremony beneth a godswood and maybe some other scenes that did happen near faced trees. But we will see.... one day hopefully.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Hodor's Aunt said:

I think the last sentence refers to his warging abilities. That would not allow him to look in the past. Or only in the past an animal, beast or human being he wargs has seen. He might still be able to figure out R+L=J. But different than in the show. I guess he will see the wedding ceremony beneth a godswood and maybe some other scenes that did happen near faced trees. But we will see.... one day hopefully.

How so you come to that conclusion? BR is clearly talking about his Greenseer abilities. First a Greenseer needs to use the trees eyes, then, if he becomes powerfull enough, he does not need them anymore. Hence he can see the past, the present and possibly the future without them. He does not speak about animals or warging. There is no evidence for that. That is very clearly pointed out. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1.9.2017 at 5:09 PM, Nerevanin said:

Because of the spoiler Aeron chapter, although there is practically nothing that would explicitly hint at the alliance.

Alright thanks, wasn't aware of that chapter!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People are making too much of the "fire wight" comment from GRRM. Of course there are parallels between them and the ice wights, but they are not exactly the same. Beric retains much more of his own will and personality compared to the ice wights who are basically mindless zombies.  Beric also can be killed, he can be brought back again but the iced wights bascially cannot be killed except by fire, if you cut off its arm the arm continues to move. That's not how Beric worked, if you cut off his arm, he will lose the arm (just like he lost an eye).

Again, there are paralells, but they are very different and drawing conclusions about how the "fire wights" work based on how the "ice wights" work is premature.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am extremely curious whether the Wight Viserion burning down the Wall is from the books or not.  Because it does seem like a MAJOR thing for D & D to just create on the spot and spend all season working towards with a plot that doesn't really make sense in the first place.  I suppose it's possible D & D realized they didn't do enough groundwork with the Horn of Joramun and didn't want to just have this magical mcguffin pop up this season with almost no build-up and the dragon was the only alternative they could come up with to get the Wall down.

Or, it's plausible that Viserion becoming a wight is a book point.  I read an interesting theory about how maybe this could happen in the books the other day.  The thinking was that Victarion takes Viserion through the dragonbinder horn and is then convinced by Moqorro to take Viserion north and kill the White Walkers by himself to win over Dany, etc.  Victarion is an idiot so I could see him doing something like that only to get himself and Viserion killed in the process.  

On 9/3/2017 at 9:38 AM, Relic said:

GRRM probably won't complete the series,  but not due to health issues. Simply put,  his muse has flown out to sea,  and it might never return. I've heard that he hasn't actually written anything in two years. Can't reveal the source of that,  but part of me feels like it's the truth. 

As someone who has been reading these books since GoT was available in hardcover,  circa 1997, this bums me out greatly. However,  i can never begrudge an artist the space they need to create. Or to not create. GRRM is beholden only to himself as far as this story of his is concerned.  

Yes, it really bums me out as well.  The writing has slowed to a snail's pace and while people have different opinions regarding AFFC and ADWD, I felt they were a marked drop in quality from the first 3 books.  A big part of that was the sense of meandering plot and travelogues, where you just get the sense that GRRM has written himself into a corner and is stuck waiting around and stalling to try and come up with a way out of it.  I really hope we at least see TWOW next year and he works through this once he gets that book out.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/1/2017 at 6:09 PM, Nerevanin said:

 

After Season6 finale I hoped for Sansa to actually turning to the dark side and marry LF when she realizes that the lords overlooked her and elected Jon. But nothing like this happened because Team Stark has to win and be the good guys all the time... :(

Why not? They are practically the only real family, I mean family-family, with true love between the siblings and unconditional love for their father from all of his children - "the lone wolf dies and the pack survives". Look what loneliness has done to them- they must be together to survive and for the love they bear for each other. And they are one of the "good guys", why people do not like that? There must be something at least remotely resembling good family values (the Starks are family oriented House, in a good way I mean) in the books/show (there are other examples, but those are not main in the books and are not included properly in the story in the show).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dany will make it to Westeros. Beside that, I don't see anything else that happened this season happening in the next book.

But going further than that, the next book may come out in the next 5ish years. But I don't think the series will ever finish. I don't think he can finish it in 2 books with so many plot points that need to tie back together, I just don't see it happening in 2. Especially when he says he knows how it will end, but wants the characters to evolve and go through their story organically. Stephen King writes about this (not ASOIAF but that writing style of organic character growth) in his book "On Writing" and how he wants a character's arc to end a certain way, but by the end of writing it goes a complete other direction that's just how it works out. So you can either A. roll with it or B. change the story and pull a huge Deux Ex Machina type thing. 
I honestly think this is what GRRM is struggling with now, he knows how he wants it to end but as he writes it, it just isn't going that direction. So do you just change your ending (and still try to write this epic/awesome ending) or force the character to go with the plot you want, and kinda going against everything you have been doing for 20ish years. 
All of that and the ending to his Magnum Opus is about to be spoiled. That's gotta take a lot outta you.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. I think the whole Rheagar and Lyanna being married might be true. But definitely not Annulment

2. Arya killing Walter Frey

3. The Dragon pit meeting.(Maybe not at the pit)

4. Dany / Jon relationship

5. Cersei allies with Euron

6. I think the the Others will have a dragon, but not one of Dany's

7. The Field of Fire 2.0

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all, thank you for starting this thread. The only reason I've been watching the show of late (given how fantastical - in a not good way - it has become) is to try to glean some hints on the direction of the books.

Here are my two cents:

In the Books:

  • Daenerys will in land in Dragonstone.
  • Littlefinger will die.
  • The Wall will fall.
  • Sansa will get to Winterfell.
  • Jaime 'leaving' Cersei.

Possibly in the Books:

  • The Others will have a Dragon.
  • Sansa and Arya reunion.

NOT in the Books:

  • The (idiotic?) expedition to catch a wight.
  • Cersei 'winning' battles and becoming the best long-term strategist of all time.
  • The Iron Bank backing Cersei.
  • Bran in Winterfell.

This is probably off-topic since it related to Season 6, but I'm really curious about what people think Rickon's fate will be...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Pearly said:

First of all, thank you for starting this thread. The only reason I've been watching the show of late (given how fantastical - in a not good way - it has become) is to try to glean some hints on the direction of the books.

Here are my two cents:

In the Books:

  • Daenerys will in land in Dragonstone.
  • Littlefinger will die.
  • The Wall will fall.
  • Sansa will get to Winterfell.
  • Jaime 'leaving' Cersei.

Possibly in the Books:

  • The Others will have a Dragon.
  • Sansa and Arya reunion.

NOT in the Books:

  • The (idiotic?) expedition to catch a wight.
  • Cersei 'winning' battles and becoming the best long-term strategist of all time.
  • The Iron Bank backing Cersei.
  • Bran in Winterfell.

This is probably off-topic since it related to Season 6, but I'm really curious about what people think Rickon's fate will be...

I, too, find this interesting. I think Rickon won't be super important to the end game but I think he has some use still. IMO he will die in the books, but not the way the show had it. 
In the books, Davos is one his way to get Rickon right? It's been a little while.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

In the books, Davos is one his way to get Rickon right? It's been a little while.

He might still be rowing :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Pearly said:

He might still be rowing :P

Wouldn't that be ironic. He is just rowing for an entire book ha!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×