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John Meta

The missing Arya-Sansa scene?

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6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

When Arya handed Sansa the dagger, I saw that as Arya telling Sansa that she wasn't her enemy and that Sansa needs to protect herself from other enemies, i.e. LF. So that to me shows Arya to be written as more discerning amongst the two.

Maybe there was a scene with Bran, but even without it, I doubt either of the sisters would've wanted the other dead/banished.

I agree. I think the fighting with each other, and the anger toward each other was real. They are after all, teen siblings. They disagree. They fight. But let someone try to come between them, and they show their love for each other.

I mean seriously, Arya and Sansa have never gotten along, never 'liked' each other. But unlike Cat and Lysa, they are Starks. Arya's little speech about only needing Sansa's face was a hiiden message. She was onto Littlefinger, but was wary of someone listening outside the door. So she told her sister, "If I wanted to, I could become you." But handing Sansa the dagger was, "You're my sister, I would never do that to you."

I enjoyed it. Especially, "My Sister asked you a question." undoubtedly, one of my favorite culminations of a plot in the show so far.

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On 8/29/2017 at 7:05 PM, John Meta said:

After the discussion of what was transpiring between Arya and Sansa, I feel either I missed something, or, a scene was missing. I am not sure what happened in that entire affair. Was Arya in on this? Was Sansa playing Littlefinger the whole time, by herself? Did Three-Eyed Raven step in an resolve the issue? I'm not sure, and it feels like there is a missing scene that would have brought this into clarity. What are your comments on, what happened in Winterfell in season 7?

From what I could discern, I am concluding that, Arya did not know, and Sansa did not know; but somewhere Sansa figured it out, and Three-Eyed Raven filled in the details? I have usually had little problem with following this series, but this is one area I am not able to discern what transpired.

My strong opinion:  Oh yeah, Bran, Sansa and Arya (and very likely Royce, too) all knew what was about to happen to LF before that meeting (or hearing, or whatever) even started.

Sansa already knew, all by herself, not to trust LF (she told Jon last season only a fool would trust LF)

But Bran was the REAL key, in my opinion.  Once he returned to Winterfell, the clock of justice was counting down on LF fast.

Yes absolutely, critical scenes were left out.  I strongly assume Bran told both Sansa and Arya, in great detail, everything LF was responsible for (some of which Sansa already knew, cuz she was there when it happened, but not all)

So Bran connected all the dots, and filled in all the blanks, and soon Sansa and Arya knew pretty much as much as we did about LF, and the whole meeting/hearing was a set-up to get assemble everyone in a room so LF could be confronted and crossed off.

So, why weren't we shown those critical scenes?  Dramatic effect. So we, the audience, would be left in suspense, wondering what was really going on rather than being spoon-fed the whole thing in a linear fashion that was not suspenseful.

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I agree that the tension was real between the sisters, and it wasn't until after Sansa had talked to LF ( the imagine the worse spiel) that she went to Bran. I never bought into the theory that the sisters had been playing LF all season long aka a long con, because it made no sense in show. However, I have written pretty close word for word what D & D said in regards to that plot line in the behind the episodes for episode 7:

Quote

So much of that scene is what happens before hand and building up the tension  between Arya and Sansa where you really believe one might potentially kill the other, it's one of the benefits of this show where so may characters have been killed, and so many characters have made decisions that you wish they hadn't that you actually believe that one might kill the other. Knowing that your aiming at that it really helped in the writing of it as your only goal is to build to what feels like a real rift between them in a way that makes it extremely fraught when you get in that room with them in the end.

What do you people feel they mean in the bolded, it can be read several different ways. 

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When I read the leaks for the Winterfell plot months ago, I thought it was laughable.  Now that it's been broadcast, I actually enjoyed some at attempt at political intrigue that made Game of Thrones...Game of Thrones.

Everything else this season has been Jon and Dany giving each other oogly eyes, revenge porn, or giant spectacle action scenes.

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11 hours ago, Ser Hyle said:

The key problems with this are #1 Arya somehow forgetting that Sansa was screaming and crying and trying to stop Ned from being executed

You know, after thinking about it.... Wasn't Sansa marrying Ramsey a huge betrayal to the Starks? I mean...the Boltons betrayed the Starks...sided with the Lannisters and were complicit in the red wedding. Roose killed Robb! Her mother died there! Then she married Roose's son. WTF. If Arya had a reason to be pissed and want revenge, there it is. The only reason Sansa would do such a thing is personal ambition. 

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10 hours ago, #teamNightking said:

You know, after thinking about it.... Wasn't Sansa marrying Ramsey a huge betrayal to the Starks? I mean...the Boltons betrayed the Starks...sided with the Lannisters and were complicit in the red wedding. Roose killed Robb! Her mother died there! Then she married Roose's son. WTF. If Arya had a reason to be pissed and want revenge, there it is. The only reason Sansa would do such a thing is personal ambition. 

I think the married was sold to her by LF as a '...keep your enemies closer' type of thing, but you're right, Arya being pissed about "you married the head of the house that co-conspired to murder our mother and brother." would have been a much better reason than Sansa's role in Ned's execution.

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20 hours ago, Lorathi said:

And this confirms the big problem with that arc. It does nothing for the character development of Sansa or Arya. After Jon explicitly warned them about the great threat posed by the White Walkers, they did nothing useful to prepare Winterfell. Arya could have been training people to fight. Sansa had 1 scene giving orders, but she could have been shown actually planning a defense of Winterfell with the other lords.

We see them bickering like children for what is implied to be months. Sansa, despite everything Littlefinger has put her through, isn't any smarter. She falls right back into Littlefinger's game, as does Arya (whose spy skills are garbage), and Bran has to Deus Ex Machina Littlefinger away. As stupid and sloppy as Littlefinger was this season, the girls should have been able to outplay him, but they were even dumber. 

Agreed. It's clear that 'twists' are much more important to the showrunners at this point than character development.

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They conspired off-screen in order to deliver us a shock scene. A cheap, hamfisted gotcha moment. 

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11 hours ago, Ser Egghead said:

I agree. I think the fighting with each other, and the anger toward each other was real. They are after all, teen siblings. They disagree. They fight. But let someone try to come between them, and they show their love for each other.

I mean seriously, Arya and Sansa have never gotten along, never 'liked' each other. But unlike Cat and Lysa, they are Starks. Arya's little speech about only needing Sansa's face was a hiiden message. She was onto Littlefinger, but was wary of someone listening outside the door. So she told her sister, "If I wanted to, I could become you." But handing Sansa the dagger was, "You're my sister, I would never do that to you."

I enjoyed it. Especially, "My Sister asked you a question." undoubtedly, one of my favorite culminations of a plot in the show so far.

I'm with you.  I don't get the negative reaction people are having to this arc.  I thought it was pretty good.  The tension was real and made perfect sense.  You have to give LF some way to go out, and I thought it was perfect to have his last act be trying to manipulate two sisters against each other again.  But this time you have Ned's daughters and son and the whole thing is book-ended by him teaching them that the pack survives while the lone wolf dies.  Great character development heading into the final season of a united Stark front, the conversation between Sansa and Arya on top of Winterfell battlements was fantastic and summed things up beautifully.  

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14 hours ago, Cron said:

 

So, why weren't we shown those critical scenes?  Dramatic effect. So we, the audience, would be left in suspense, wondering what was really going on rather than being spoon-fed the whole thing in a linear fashion that was not suspenseful.

Ok. but why show a scene where Arya is threatening Sansa then? Had this happened while LF was spying on the sisters, it would have made sense, but they were alone.

It's like the show was trying to trick us like they tricked LF and that's absurd.

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3 hours ago, UnViserion said:

They conspired off-screen in order to deliver us a shock scene. A cheap, hamfisted gotcha moment. 

Yeah, pretty much.  But, did many people really think Arya was going to be sentenced to death?  I mean, for a shocking scene, it was still kind of lame because I have to believe that 80% of the audience knew that Sansa wasn't going to execute her sister.  

I didn't think it was utterly, brutally stupid with no redeeming quality like the wight hunt or the dragonpit parlay or a lot of other things, but it wasn't great by any means.  A lot of fake drama for an obvious payoff.  Hohum.

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I don't know if anyone else brought this up, but there was an article about how a Bran Sansa scene got cut. That was basically Sansa saying she needs help from Bran. Would have been nice to show the humanizing of Bran. But also maybe that's how the plan starts with Sansa and Arya?

http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-finale-cut-scene-1202541941/ 

 

8 minutes ago, Leto Atreides said:

Ok. but why show a scene where Arya is threatening Sansa then? Had this happened while LF was spying on the sisters, it would have made sense, but they were alone.

It's like the show was trying to trick us like they tricked LF and that's absurd.

So annoying. It was just to mislead the audience. 

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1 hour ago, Leto Atreides said:

Ok. but why show a scene where Arya is threatening Sansa then? Had this happened while LF was spying on the sisters, it would have made sense, but they were alone.

It's like the show was trying to trick us like they tricked LF and that's absurd.

Well, YEAH, I think the show was "trying to trick us."

Misdirection for the viewer.  It happens.

But...are we SURE Littlefinger was not spying on Arya and Sansa during that scene??? It happened in Sansa's room, and I would not bat an eye to discover that LF arranged to be able to spy on Sansa in her room (cuz he was a dirty old man...)

(P.S. By the way, I love the screen name. I'm a HUGE fan of Dune, I've read all the books that I know of.  And it's kind of funny how most people think of Paul when it comes to Dune, when REALLY his son, Leto II, was the true badass.  Or did you take the name after Paul's father, Leto I?)

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On 8/30/2017 at 3:18 PM, Gaz0680 said:

Arya never threatened Sansa's life. I cant believe how many people misinterpreted that scene. 

Apparently Sansa misinterpreted it, too. 

Not sure what was you interpretation. Was Arya "testing" Sansa, or communication in psycho-code. Anyway, if you don't want people to think you're threatening their lives, maybe you should steer clear of the entire subject of cutting off/wearing their faces. 

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On 8/30/2017 at 4:41 PM, hallam said:

Seriously, Sansa has to talk to Arya first because only an idiot tries to pull a surprise on a faceless man. 

Except Littlefinger pulled off a surprise on Arya. He was an idiot for doing so, but only because Sansa and Bran figured it out. The faceless man fell for it. 

Then again, Aryan isn't actually a faceless man. 

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On 8/30/2017 at 4:41 PM, hallam said:

As a rule, it is not 'bad writing' to fail to spell out every detail. In fact doing so is considered to be tedious and crap. You know that Bran is a the three eyed crow. You know that Sansa has suddenly worked all this stuff. It does not take a degree in nuclear physics to work out how.

You're right in that it's obvious Bran and Sansa, at least, worked it out beforehand. You're wrong, because neither I nor many another viewer could figure out when, nor whether the entire stupid Arya/Sansa feud storyline was a put-on all along. Or if it wasn't, when exactly it ended, and who ended it. That's all left as clear as absolute darkness in the episode. 

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On 8/30/2017 at 5:07 PM, Ser Gareth said:

Indeed.  It was for dramatic effect that the audience initially thinks Sansa is saying these things to Arya and the twist is she is saying it to Littlefinger.

It amazes me how many people who watch the show seem to fail to realise the large bulk of interaction has to happen off camera.  Otherwise you may as well turn the whole show into a soap opera.

I think soap operas are better known for twists and "dramatic effect" than keeping the nuts and bolts expository stuff in. 

That "trial" scene was very soap-opera-ish. All the relevant characters in one room. "How do you answer the charges...Lord Baelish! [Dun-dun-dun!]]"

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On 8/30/2017 at 5:09 PM, Apoplexy said:

When Arya handed Sansa the dagger, I saw that as Arya telling Sansa that she wasn't her enemy and that Sansa needs to protect herself from other enemies, i.e. LF. So that to me shows Arya to be written as more discerning amongst the two.

Maybe there was a scene with Bran, but even without it, I doubt either of the sisters would've wanted the other dead/banished.

Yes, brilliant Sansa obviously would get the hint. Because what's a bag of faces and threatening to kill someone, cut off their face, and steal their personality (and pretty dresses!) compared to the symbolism of handing them a dagger?

Sansa totally got the message, too, because she didn't talk to Little finger like she was considering killing her sister, didn't brood over the idea of killing her sister on the ramparts (that's her thinking place), and didn't go to her omniscient brother for advice offscreen because she was thinking of killing her sister before she killed her first. 

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23 hours ago, John Meta said:

when she sent Brienne away, it seemed to me she did so so Littlefinger couldn't use her against Arya

How on earth would Littlefinger use Brienne against Arya? Oh, I know the idea would be to tell Brienne that Arya planned to kill Sansa, but: 

A). Brienne doesn't trust Littlefinger, and 

B). She's pledged to protect both Sansa and Arya. 

She'd only kill one to sister to save the other if the she was certain the former meant the latter grave harm. She'd NEVER be sure based on Littlefinger's word, or even Littlefinger's tricks. Littlefinger's trick could have been to command Brienne through Sansa, but that doesn't fit your scenario. 

Unless Sansa sent Brienne away so that Sansa couldn't order her to kill Arya. Like an alcoholic pouring booze down the drain?

Of course, Sansa may not have worked any of this out. She can be rather foolish. 

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40 minutes ago, darmody said:

Anyway, if you don't want people to think you're threatening their lives, maybe you should steer clear of the entire subject of cutting off/wearing their faces. 

:D Arya being so damn unapologetically psycho is very endearing to me. 

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