The Great Debate: Should Jon Have Lied?

[snow is the man]

17 hours ago, Snormund said:

Jon died in season 5.  

 

As for Todd, well lying wasn't the issue. The issue was selling out the North just so he could get some ass. 

jon never wanted to be king but knew he had to because he needed to fight the night king and noone else had seen it except the wildlings and the nights watch who held no sway with the northern lords or anyone really. Now that dany will definetly fight them he is more then happy to step down. He didn't tell dany that until she had sworn to fight the night king and had lost a dragon doing it so he knew she would keep her word.  Jon's whole mission in the series since season 2 was to keep the realm safe and in his mind the night king is by far the biggest threat while arguing about who's in power was meaningless. Though if he bent the knee to cersei I would have been furious.

I was one of the people who thought he shouldn't bend the knee to her but I liked the way they did it.

 

Also while I hated king robert he was right when he told cersei that one army is better then 5. Joining with dany means there are less leaders to argue and complain about who's in power.

[Apoplexy]

On 9/1/2017 at 0:51 AM, darmody said:

I don't know how pissed she was when she walked out. She was mightily pissed when she was alone with Tyrion, but that's because it was Tyrion. She tried hard to separate her feelings toward him from what she thought was strategically necessary. And she did a good job, I think. 

Her plan all along was to pretend to agree to their temporary armistice, so the intermission must have been a bluff. It was tactical.

Would've been nice to hear what Tyrion said to make her come back, but ah well, there's lotsa stuff the show doesn't show. 

I agree the intermission was a bluff. Cersei was just looking to make it believable that she agreed to send her army north.

I think cersei was trying to buy time by feigning to send her troops north so that she could get the GC to westeros. And she had thought that asking Jon to agree to a ceasefire would be a good enough reason to make it seem as though she was getting something out of sending her troops. But when Jon said he was pledged to Dany, cersei didnt have anything to gain from the negotiations. And it would be really hard to believe she did something out of the goodness of her heart. 

Tyrion going back to speak to her gave Cersei another excuse to feign to accept a temporary truce. And she even points out that she agreed to send her troops north without any assurances from anyone.

 

[TwiceBorn]

He did the right thing.

[tmug]

If Jon had learned about how his "father" Ned was the keeper of one of the biggest lies in Westerosi history about Jon's lineage, I think he would have followed suit and bent the knee to Cersei in the understanding that there is a far, far bigger picture than who's allegiance he pledges to and his whole idea about what "honor" means.

Ned saw the bigger picture when it came about raising Jon as his own and sacrificed his honor for the sake of his nephew of royal decent. It wasn't important at that time that anyone knew about Jon, I think what was more important to Lyanna and her promise request was that Jon be kept safe and schooled well. By the time of that promise Rhaegar was dead, his family was dead and there was no real future for Lyanna if she had survived to explain it all.

Ned's biggest lie in regards to Jon was the most honorable thing he did in his life. Ned risked the lives of his own family and all of its history for Jon, for the bigger picture. If Jon ends up fulfilling the PtwP prophecy, Ned ultimately saved Westeros using a lie. Jon will probably end up just like Ned in the end, never knowing about his lineage and go on sacrificing his own life for his distorted idea of what he was taught "honor" was from his "father". 

[Apoplexy]

56 minutes ago, tmug said:

If Jon had learned about how his "father" Ned was the keeper of one of the biggest lies in Westerosi history about Jon's lineage, I think he would have followed suit and bent the knee to Cersei in the understanding that there is a far, far bigger picture than who's allegiance he pledges to and his whole idea about what "honor" means.

Ned saw the bigger picture when it came about raising Jon as his own and sacrificed his honor for the sake of his nephew of royal decent. It wasn't important at that time that anyone knew about Jon, I think what was more important to Lyanna and her promise request was that Jon be kept safe and schooled well. By the time of that promise Rhaegar was dead, his family was dead and there was no real future for Lyanna if she had survived to explain it all.

Ned's biggest lie in regards to Jon was the most honorable thing he did in his life. Ned risked the lives of his own family and all of its history for Jon, for the bigger picture. If Jon ends up fulfilling the PtwP prophecy, Ned ultimately saved Westeros using a lie. Jon will probably end up just like Ned in the end, never knowing about his lineage and go on sacrificing his own life for his distorted idea of what he was taught "honor" was from his "father". 

I'm not sure the two lies are completely comparable. Lying about your allegiance is not the same as lying to protect the life of a child. If Jon had lied to cersei, his word would cease to have value. And very few people would call Ned a liar, they would probably say he kept a secret. Maybe it's a distinction and not a difference, but a distinction nonetheless.

[Dragonslack]

It doesn't matter, but they did it anyway. "like his father" "honor" etc blah blah but

Ned lied like a motherfucker, confessing that he was a traitor, that he ordered his wife to do it, that jon was his bastard (without ever telling Jon anything!), etc.

So this thing that Jon never lies and has to tell the truth like a retarded child is bullshit.

Not to mention Jon lied about betraying the watch, about leaving the watch, that he got stabbed to the heart, etc.

The better question is why knee when she gave him everything for free, even a dragon?! He could have said that after the war with the dead and after she reached kings landing... What an insult to the northern lords, including the little girl, another king that lost the north.

[tmug]

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I'm not sure the two lies are completely comparable. Lying about your allegiance is not the same as lying to protect the life of a child. If Jon had lied to cersei, his word would cease to have value. And very few people would call Ned a liar, they would probably say he kept a secret. Maybe it's a distinction and not a difference, but a distinction nonetheless.

I don't know, a lie is a lie honorable or not. Ned lied to the world when he declared Jon Snow as his bastard son. He had a choice of betraying the honor to his friend King Robert or his sister Lyanna. 

The way I see it, if Jon dies in the war versus the Undead his lie doesn't matter. If he survives the war versus the Undead, Jon has no obligation to fulfill a promise to serve a queen who did not hold up her end of the deal. Jaime explained it quite well, "if the dead win, they come down and kill us all. if the living win, they come down and kill us all for the betrayal"

But now that I think about it, I bet if Jon bends the knee to Cersei she would probably do the exact same thing as she is doing now so in the end none of it matters and Jon not only saves some face by sticking to his word with Dany but he also got to make babies with the Khaleesi. That was Jon's plan all along, Jon = win lol   

 

[Apoplexy]

10 hours ago, tmug said:

But now that I think about it, I bet if Jon bends the knee to Cersei she would probably do the exact same thing as she is doing now so in the end none of it matters and Jon not only saves some face by sticking to his word with Dany but he also got to make babies with the Khaleesi. That was Jon's plan all along, Jon = win lol   

Ygritte spread the word well that 'bending the knee' was Jon's speciality. Everybody wants him to bend the knee now. But it was Khaleesi who won in the end

[Guest]

On 8/30/2017 at 5:33 PM, Frances Bean Corbray said:

Keeping Cersei from jumping them while their back is turned/dealing with the White Walkers was the goal all along (actually getting her to help the anti-WW effort would've been a bonus).

 

There is no dialogue in the show to indicate that this was the motivation for seeking a ceasefire.

On 8/30/2017 at 9:15 PM, MinscS2 said:

You can't count on a true, honest man to always keep his word, and then expect him to lie at your convenience.

Ygritte and the wildlings have something to say about Jon being a "true, honest man."

Cersei denied a truce with Dany. So Jon had nothing to lose by telling her the truth. Cersei wasn't giving Dany what she wanted anyway. Jon was reminding Dany that she already had something - the North, and she should STFU and be happy with it.