Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

House Rootbreaker

The Great Debate: Should Jon Have Lied?

Recommended Posts

10 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

That his entire focus had been on WW and doing whatever he could to fight them, even lie. That is the shift of character I am talking about. I believe it was completely out of place for Jon to not do what's best for fighting the WW. I assume you will disagree. 

Yes, I disagree. Jon will do what's best for fighting the WW's, but he won't do it at the expensive of his honor.
Jon never (at least willingly) breaks an vow. If he had lied to Cersei he would've broken his vow to Daenerys. 
Jon has never been shown as lying, even for the greater good, if it puts him in risk of breaking his vows.
He lied to the wildlings in season 3/4 but he could do that without breaking a vow and he technically followed an order by doing it.


If anything, him not lying in season 7 (because it would make him break a vow), even when it's to his own detriment, is very much in character for him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, btfu806 said:

I mean, we could go back and forth on this, but just read the books.... I don't have time to answer all your questions on the basics of the Night's Watch and how they operate.

Read the books, thanks, but those have nothing to do with the differences between written rules and conventions. I would recommend some different books for you to read, but don't have the time to look them up for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, btfu806 said:

You edited your post so no I didn't answer. The fact you have to qualify your answer with "never really does" shows that he does. But regardless,there were rules set by other lord commanders that he continuously broke in the show, that's fine, that's a big part of his character and how he learns and matures. Are we really arguing that Jon was perfect and never broke any rules ever?

 

There's a difference between rules and oaths. Look them up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Good luck to any Barrister trying to prove he *actually* died and came back though - especially the way it happened in the show.

Also, it's kind of negated in the oath itself - all the nights to come is exactly that. If you die but it so turns out there are still nights to come then maybe your watch isn't exactly ended? Sure, it's a technicality, but so is the premise that if you 'die' your oath doesn't count.

Besides, if you get off on a technicality, that doesn't exactly make your a paragon of virtue. People shouldn't be going on about how you're the precious cinnamon roll and your word is gold of that is the case.

Haha good point there! 

I'm not here arguing he's a paragon of virtue. Just that if he were literally unable to break an oath or tell a lie like an Aes Sedai to use an example from a different fantasy series, he would have been able to do everything he's done despite taking the Night's Watch Oaths.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the bigger question is why didn't anyone realize or take into consideration Cersei was lying.  

1.  It's Cersei Lannister and her brother the same brother whom everyone on the other side save Brienne and Tyrion think is a piece of shit oathbreaker.  

2.  And I think this is the most important, I referenced earlier and only 1 person responded, Cersei calls Jon the King in the North directly.  "The King in the North will stay in the North"  But when she addresses Dany who has the best claim to the throne (that anyone knows save Bran and Sam currently) she calls her a would be usurper.  Cersei wouldn't recognize Jon as KitN, she would recognize him as a traitor to the crown.  

3.  Just because they brought 1 wight everyone is now convinced there is an entire army of 100k dead people because Dany said there was.  I don't think Cersei would have believed them, to me I would have thought she would consider that yes this is insane, the dead are vicious and real, but is this really proof there is a bad ass army and a bad ass General that does not negotiate like Jon said, maybe they just found this 1 thing and are using it to trick her.  

4.  She originally says that she will pull her armies back if Jon stays neutral, and after her conversation with Tyrion she pledges her armies and banners and her only request is that they remember she helped.  Huge red flag.  Not only did she compromise, but she gave more than she was originally going to give before Jon made his allegiance known.  

 

Everyone on team non Cersei is a fucking fool for believing anything she said.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see what jon did that got cersei so pissed. Jon was already her enemy and him and dany were already joining together it seemed like. What did he do that got everyone pissed off and suddenly changed everything

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

I don't see what jon did that got cersei so pissed. Jon was already her enemy and him and dany were already joining together it seemed like. What did he do that got everyone pissed off and suddenly changed everything

Cersei made it seem that she was pissed because Tyrion brokered the deal to make Jon bend the knee to her.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ser Hyle said:

Haha good point there! 

I'm not here arguing he's a paragon of virtue. Just that if he were literally unable to break an oath or tell a lie like an Aes Sedai to use an example from a different fantasy series, he would have been able to do everything he's done despite taking the Night's Watching Oaths.

Thank you :cheers:

I think there are essentially two ways to look at it:

1, The legalistic, technical point of view where you focus on the actual words of the vow to the exclusion of everything else. According to this interesting Jon various indiscretions weren't *technically* him breaking his vows and now that he's died and come back to life he gets to do anything he wants because 'his watch is ended'. This is not a trustworthy character.

2, You focus on the spirit of the vows. Whatever Jon does, alive or resurected, is measured against the big picture of fighting the WW. Him sleeping with Ygritte is inconsequential as is him deserting the NW as long as he's still rallying people to fight against the Others. In this interpretation his willingness of bend the knee to Dany/not lie to Carsei is possibly the biggest negation of his vows as he's placing his personal pleasure/honor above the cause. This is exactly what Quorin warned him against. 

Quote

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, Cersei would still have gone with her brilliant and unforseeable plan to not hold up her end of the deal and everything would be exactly the same except Jon would have no credibility as a negotiator. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, my first impression was that Jon didn't need to volunteer that he had bent the knee at that point but maybe something like "I will consider your proposition if you send us your troops first" or something like that.  Of course she wasn't going to honour this and there were a lot of red flags, still he would have got out of it without disclosing too much.

Now, yes we all knew she wasn't likely to honour any truce still, after the fact that the wight nearly attacked her it may been different being there... she may have sound more convincing due to this fact.

I certainly think that showing her the wight and how difficult it was to kill was much better than talking endlessly about what they knew about them.  At the end of the day no one even in the North really believed Old Nana's tales, not even Ned, not until they saw them so I think although it seemed like a stupid mission it probably was necessary.  Of course anyone but Cersei or Euron both of whom are either mad or half-mad would have taken in the enormity of the threat to humanity.  There arrogance will be their downfall, with or without the Golden Company lol and this is assuming that Euron isn't double-crossing Cersei already or hedging his bets...

Still I thought all the debate even in program as to how Jon should learn to be a bit more cunning was a bit too much ado about nothing.  I felt this until I looked at it in conjunction with something that is clearly in store for season 8, the revelation of Jon's origins and legitimacy as well as whether he will reveal his romance with Dany to all and sundry and when.

With I look at all these issues together I can see foreshadowing in terms of flagging to the viewers that Jon can be too honest for his own good.  I have posted more details in both the Bran/Sam revelation thread and in the Tyrion's reaction to sex scene one but looking at all of it together things are beginning to make sense to me.

Revealing his affair with Dany as soon as he goes up North seems like a very bad move indeed especially after kneeling to her.  This is going to give the Northern Lords the message that he is sold them off for love or lust or both.  I know this will not matter hugely in the end since once the WWs are on their door step they will have to club together like it or not and she happens to have the large army and the dragons so they are out of choices but still.  He would make life much easier for himself by keeping it quiet.  If there is indeed a child and they do marry, the best thing to do would be to say that this was a political marriage that was beneficial for all and to ensure her loyalty to fighting WWs, say.

Equally I would be inclined to keep the fact that he is legitimate to myself if I were Jon at least until he knows Dany and her plans for after the WWs war better and if necessary to make their child (if there is one) more acceptable or himself as a consort disclose the information when all is done and said.  I think to do otherwise may bring up doubts in Dany re his own intentions towards the IT (even if he swears to the contrary etc).  Also she may actually think that he is getting it off with her to gain political advantage.  I would certainly would try to wait and see how things go before making great revelations.

I think the real issue is that he is going to jump the gun and be too honest and create some real internal conflict in the North early next season and possibly conflict (at least internal) with Dany too, maybe even with their advisors...and I think this was the purpose of this scene.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cersei is lying anyways and isnt going to help them and so Tyrion the master politics person was played and his dumb plan meant zero and what will happen is Jon the hero that is will have to protect people and fight the army of the dead for Dany and Tyrion to have whatever future as rulers. So the Honest Jon Snow will spill his blood and be known as a hero while cersei will be known as the cowardly cancer that did nothing. So I say Jon an Honest Man will win out even if dies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Okay, my first impression was that Jon didn't need to volunteer that he had bent the knee at that point but maybe something like "I will consider your proposition if you send us your troops first" or something like that.  Of course she wasn't going to honour this and there were a lot of red flags, still he would have got out of it without disclosing too much.

Now, yes we all knew she wasn't likely to honour any truce still, after the fact that the wight nearly attacked her it may been different being there... she may have sound more convincing due to this fact.

I certainly think that showing her the wight and how difficult it was to kill was much better than talking endlessly about what they knew about them.  At the end of the day no one even in the North really believed Old Nana's tales, not even Ned, not until they saw them so I think although it seemed like a stupid mission it probably was necessary.  Of course anyone but Cersei or Euron both of whom are either mad or half-mad would have taken in the enormity of the threat to humanity.  There arrogance will be their downfall, with or without the Golden Company lol and this is assuming that Euron isn't double-crossing Cersei already or hedging his bets...

Still I thought all the debate even in program as to how Jon should learn to be a bit more cunning was a bit too much ado about nothing.  I felt this until I looked at it in conjunction with something that is clearly in store for season 8, the revelation of Jon's origins and legitimacy as well as whether he will reveal his romance with Dany to all and sundry and when.

With I look at all these issues together I can see foreshadowing in terms of flagging to the viewers that Jon can be too honest for his own good.  I have posted more details in both the Bran/Sam revelation thread and in the Tyrion's reaction to sex scene one but looking at all of it together things are beginning to make sense to me.

Revealing his affair with Dany as soon as he goes up North seems like a very bad move indeed especially after kneeling to her.  This is going to give the Northern Lords the message that he is sold them off for love or lust or both.  I know this will not matter hugely in the end since once the WWs are on their door step they will have to club together like it or not and she happens to have the large army and the dragons so they are out of choices but still.  He would make life much easier for himself by keeping it quiet.  If there is indeed a child and they do marry, the best thing to do would be to say that this was a political marriage that was beneficial for all and to ensure her loyalty to fighting WWs, say.

Equally I would be inclined to keep the fact that he is legitimate to myself if I were Jon at least until he knows Dany and her plans for after the WWs war better and if necessary to make their child (if there is one) more acceptable or himself as a consort disclose the information when all is done and said.  I think to do otherwise may bring up doubts in Dany re his own intentions towards the IT (even if he swears to the contrary etc).  Also she may actually think that he is getting it off with her to gain political advantage.  I would certainly would try to wait and see how things go before making great revelations.

I think the real issue is that he is going to jump the gun and be too honest and create some real internal conflict in the North early next season and possibly conflict (at least internal) with Dany too, maybe even with their advisors...and I think this was the purpose of this scene.

My feeling is with the wall down there wont be time for the norther lords too be against jon and dany and i think Jona nd Dany are private people at this stage anyways and wont bring up being a couple only maybe Sansa will since it or tell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, EddardSnow said:

My feeling is with the wall down there wont be time for the norther lords too be against jon and dany and i think Jona nd Dany are private people at this stage anyways and wont bring up being a couple only maybe Sansa will since it or tell.

Oh, certainly the Wall falling down is going to be the main concern and what comes with it but still I guess there will have to be some conflict amongst characters otherwise it would all just be like battle and battle planning.  You know, although we have more information now that series 7 is over I am at this moment in time still very unclear as to the structure and possible contents of the next 6 episodes but what you say makes sense.  Maybe it is just me trying to find purpose in the scene with Jon and Cersei and reading too much into it who knows...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Todd Snow's earnestness was yet another example on the show of Good=Weak/Stupid and Evil=Smart/successful We could argue whether strategic lies--or truthiness--would really be all the bad, but aside from the moral dilemma the message was once again that Starks are dumber than everyone else, and if they could but be underhanded and backstabby they be better off. 

I might point out that ol' Honest Ned Stark was being sneaky back in Season One. He wanted to get whom he thought to be the rightful king on the throne, partly because he "cannot tell a lie" and couldn't allow Jeffrey or Prince What's-his-name (the gay one) to be king. In the meantime, his plan was to seize control of Jeffrey via the Gold Cloaks, because possession of the king is ten-tenths of succession law. His fatal flaw was trusting the untrustworthy Littlefinger, not honesty. He was actually banking on being dishonest and tricking Cheryl. 

His other big flaw (though not in itself fatal) was spilling the incest/cuckold beans to Cheryl. But he didn't do so because he was honest. He did so because he was merciful. Mercy is of course Good (depending on the circumstance), so Mercy=Stupid. Still, I don't know why the show stresses Ned's honesty so vehemently. 

 

Back to my point (if I have one), Cheryl has survived somehow, and has a ridiculous amount of power. That's supposedly so because she's Evil, and Evil has the advantage over good. So she has the upper hand against Todd, as well as Tyrion and Dany, who unlike Todd know more than nothing and are willing to lie to get ahead. (As did Ned, for that matter.) 

Which really irks me, because Cheryl's level of dishonesty and Evil really should be handicaps, not strengths. No one should believe anything she says, ever, except maybe the people she revenge-tortures, like that nun and Sand-mommy. That would tend to limit your options, I'd think. 

Sometimes Evil=Stupid, show. Even when the character is played by Lena Headey. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, snow is the man said:

I don't see what jon did that got cersei so pissed. Jon was already her enemy and him and dany were already joining together it seemed like. What did he do that got everyone pissed off and suddenly changed everything

I don't know how pissed she was when she walked out. She was mightily pissed when she was alone with Tyrion, but that's because it was Tyrion. She tried hard to separate her feelings toward him from what she thought was strategically necessary. And she did a good job, I think. 

Her plan all along was to pretend to agree to their temporary armistice, so the intermission must have been a bluff. It was tactical.

Would've been nice to hear what Tyrion said to make her come back, but ah well, there's lotsa stuff the show doesn't show. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the universe of ASOIAF the fact that Jon would stay true to his word (honor) means something. In the story yet to be told he needs people to believe what he says without question. The North needs to trust his every action. The free folk and Night's Watch need to believe he is going to help them in the days to come. The other lords, and probably Dany need to understand he is coming from a place of duty based on factual threats.

In the world of D&D words truly are wind. It doesn't matter if he lies in that situation or stays true to his honor. The characters in the show no longer require reasons for their actions. He could've said anything and the end result would've been the same. Did anyone really think Cersei would be convinced to do anything beyond her own agenda even when shown a white?

In the real story (and I do like the show by the way ;)) characters would be driven by their own personalities and influenced by events and people with an understanding of that. It's a slow shaping, not a rapid change. 

In closing, Jon should have lied. But he should have done it off screen so we could be shocked when we found out later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, darmody said:

I don't know how pissed she was when she walked out. She was mightily pissed when she was alone with Tyrion, but that's because it was Tyrion. She tried hard to separate her feelings toward him from what she thought was strategically necessary. And she did a good job, I think. 

Her plan all along was to pretend to agree to their temporary armistice, so the intermission must have been a bluff. It was tactical.

Would've been nice to hear what Tyrion said to make her come back, but ah well, there's lotsa stuff the show doesn't show. 

very bad feeling that it's something to do with her being pregnant and him feeling guilty about marcella. But tyrion and the others seemed irked at jon as well

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jon died in season 5.  

 

As for Todd, well lying wasn't the issue. The issue was selling out the North just so he could get some ass. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, snow is the man said:

very bad feeling that it's something to do with her being pregnant and him feeling guilty about marcella. But tyrion and the others seemed irked at jon as well

It's almost certainly something to do with her being pregnant.

She "inadvertently" touched her belly, and Tyrion figured out she was pregnant, and was then able to use that to convince her to change her mind, to fight to save the world for her unborn child.

Except of course it wasn't at all inadvertent, she touched her belly in hopes that he'd notice, figure out that she was pregnant, and think she was trying to hide it from him. That made her caving in seem totally believable to him, even though it was completely an act.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, falcotron said:

It's almost certainly something to do with her being pregnant.

She "inadvertently" touched her belly, and Tyrion figured out she was pregnant, and was then able to use that to convince her to change her mind, to fight to save the world for her unborn child.

Except of course it wasn't at all inadvertent, she touched her belly in hopes that he'd notice, figure out that she was pregnant, and think she was trying to hide it from him. That made her caving in seem totally believable to him, even though it was completely an act.

Not to mention she knew that Tyrion loved Tommen and Myrcella.  She used that also against Tyrion and, it very well just may buy her some sympathy from Tyrion.  Will Tyrion want Dragons to burn the red keep with his unborn niece or nephew in it?  He would probably advise against it again even with her betrayal.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×