Jon Snow is Azor Ahai but Daenerys is TPTWP

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

14 hours ago, irishpisano said:

And Dany is NOT the only one who can hatch dragons as many, many Targaryens have done this before........

No. The other Targs do not make fossilized "stone" dragon eggs hatch! They have living dragons who lay eggs and those eggs hatch. Kind of like raising chicken, there's nothing special about that. What Dany did is very special. Some of her ancestors, like great-grandpa Aegon V, tries to make dragon eggs hatch with fire and fails. Dany is the only known person in history who manages to do that. GRRM has also said in an interview that it was a very special magical event. 

[irishpisano]

14 hours ago, MakeThemBurn said:

Too far out, like introducing the return of Aegon Targaryen in book 5? (Although this was mentioned back in book 2 in a Dany chapter). The Night's King is first talked about in book 2 and his queen is brought up in the very next sentence of that description. This is quite important since the books talk little of the Night's King. But the little they talk, they speak of him and his queen.

The Night's King, and the Night King are not necessarily the same person........  the next question is, if what the show told is is completely true, then the Night King was the first White Walker, so why would they need a queen?  What purpose would that serve?  How would she fit in to the story at this point?

 

I think it would require a LOT of exposition to make it convincing... and I just don't see that happening.

 

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[irishpisano]

2 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

No. The other Targs do not make fossilized "stone" dragon eggs hatch! They have living dragons who lay eggs and those eggs hatch. Kind of like raising chicken, there's nothing special about that. What Dany did is very special. Some of her ancestors, like great-grandpa Aegon V, tries to make dragon eggs hatch with fire and fails. Dany is the only known person in history who manages to do that. GRRM has also said in an interview that it was a very special magical event. 

1.  How do we know Illyrio was telling the truth?

2. your explanation only bolsters my claim that Dany is living out the role of Nissa Nissa - Mother of Dragons, so thank you.

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[Hodor the Articulate]

Wouldn't it make more sense for it to be the other way around, since AA seems to be an Essos thing, and Dany is the one associated with Essos?

Anyway, those are really obscure references to smoke and salt. Remember, the average reader isn't going to remember details like Jon being born near a river that ran into the Salt Shore (I sure didn't). So if Jon is AA and we get to the scene where that's revealed, and the characters explain how his birthplace represents salt and smoke, the average reader is going to think "WTF is the Salt Shore?"

Also, does Westeros know the sun is a star? Medieval Europe sure didn't. They do call the comet a star, though:

"The first star was a comet, burning red."

"The Dothraki named the comet shierak qiya, the Bleeding Star."

"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky."

I mean, meteors aren't stars either, but people still call them "shooting stars".

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

1 hour ago, irishpisano said:

1.  How do we know Illyrio was telling the truth?

2. your explanation only bolsters my claim that Dany is living out the role of Nissa Nissa - Mother of Dragons, so thank you.

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1. Because the eggs are literally stone when Dany gets them. Everyone, including Dany's handmaids, can see that they are fossilized dragon eggs, long dead that won't hatch. That's what makes them a valuable (but useless) gift. 

2. Nissa Nissa is described in the legend as only the wife of Azor Ahai. There are no comparisons to sun god or moon goddess so I don't know where you got that from. 

[SirArthur]

45 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Also, does Westeros know the sun is a star? Medieval Europe sure didn't. They do call the comet a star, though:

If you define the sun as the object earth rotates around, then not. 

But with that definition Westeros will most likely not even know what stars are because ... they are not far enough to define a star our way. On the other hand the sun as an object rotating the earth was not exactly hidden (but false) knowledge. So yeah, prophecy broken because there is no Kopernikus around to proper define bleeding stars. As if we could define bleeding stars with our star definition. 

-> earth rotating sun is most likely not the meaning of star

[irishpisano]

On 9/13/2017 at 9:57 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

1. Because the eggs are literally stone when Dany gets them. Everyone, including Dany's handmaids, can see that they are fossilized dragon eggs, long dead that won't hatch. That's what makes them a valuable (but useless) gift. 

2. Nissa Nissa is described in the legend as only the wife of Azor Ahai. There are no comparisons to sun god or moon goddess so I don't know where you got that from. 

What if AA was the sun (fights the night, brings light, etc...) and NN was the 2nd moon?  and they are purely mythological figures in Westeros/Essos like Ra, Odin, etc...?

The main reason that I think NN is the 2nd moon is that when NN was killed, her scream was so forecful that it left a crack on the moon.....
And legend holds (according to Dany's servant in book 1) that the moon got too close to the sun, cracked, and dragons spilled forth from it...

 

same myth.... interpreted differently by different cultures...
the servent's tale says the dragons came from the broken moon....... and also that the moon was a goddess............ thus it can be said that the moon was the mother of dragons....

this is 1 reason why i believe Dany is NN to Jon's AA........
 

 

 

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[White Ravens]

Azor Ahai is a character out of legend who may or may not have lived thousands of years ago.  He's not coming back, if he ever existed in the first place.   But GRRM really likes to mirror his heroes and some characters may still be revealed as echoes or reflections of the legendary characters of the past.  Some hero will emerge as the Prince That Was Promised but it is wise to remember that the interpretation of prophecies is a tricky business as stated by Tyrion Lannister:  "Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head."  It can be fun to try to guess what the prophecies presented in these wonderful books mean and who the prophecies herald but we need to remember that someone is going to get kicked in the head (or as Archmaester Marwyn put it "Prophecy will bite your prick off, every time").  Someone will emerge in the story who will be interpreted by other characters as the TPTWP but something about that interpretation will carry terrible unforeseen consequences.  

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 8/30/2017 at 10:26 AM, Ser Joe of Generic Hall said:

This theory assumes that Azor Ahai and The Prince That Was Promised are not the same person, for which I believe there is sufficient evidence. It also assumes that Jon Snow is in fact the son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark and that Lyanna is in fact the same woman as “Wylla.” Similar theories may have been discussed in the past, but this is my take on it.

When Eddard calls Jon Snow’s mother “Wylla” he is giving his sister a fake identity based on the area in which he found her. For some reason, Ned seems somewhat obsessed with House Wyl. Out of all the banners present at the Hand’s Tourney, Ned randomly spots that of House Wyl of the Boneway. Castle Wyl, the seat of House Wyl is situated near the Tower of Joy, on the river Wyl between the Prince’s Pass and the Boneway. One of the legendary heroines of the Dornish First Men was a warrior princess by the name of Wylla of Wyl. She fought a war against Durran Durrendon of Storm’s End. Sadly, she was defeated by the Storm King. Wylla is a common Dornish woman’s name; naturally. It is more than possible that a courtier named Wylla would work at Starfall Castle in service to House Dayne (another family from the Red Mountains). It is likely that this is where Ned went after the incident at the Tower of Joy, because he wished to return Arthur Dayne’s sword to his family. We also know, from Edric Dayne, that Jon Snow was at Starfall at some point before going to Winterfell. It is from his experiences in Dorne that Ned comes up with the “Wylla” story. We know Lyanna had a fiery spirit akin to that of Wylla, so it would be natural to compare the two, much like Arya is admires Nymeria.

In Dance with Dragons, Melisandre tells Jon Snow that “When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.” Many would argue that prophecy fits Daenerys more than it fits Jon, but I believe that the evidence points to Jon Snow. Jon Snow WAS born amidst salt and smoke. The Tower of Joy is situated near the northern entrance to the Prince’s Pass, near an unnamed river between the rivers Wyl and Brimstone. This area is arid and the red mountains are riddled with whitish and chalky minerals that is brackish. Furthermore, before the Stepstones were formed and the arm was broken, the Sea of Dorne was a giant salty marshland that was almost smokey from fog and mists. Presently, the coast of the Sea of Dorne where the river will empties, is called the “Salt Shore.” Smoke is slightly harder to define, but I believe that it is either a synonym for sand (Dorne has infamous sand storms), or it refers to the unnamed river itself, which is one of the seasonal rivers of Dorne. It is probably most comparable to the Brimstone river, which is closest; famous for its sulfurous gases that emanate from its waters because of Dorne’s arid desert climate. Brimstone itself is commonly associated with fire and “smoke.” Finally, he was born under a bleeding star; Dorne. It is much more likely that this refers to the sigil of House Martell (a red sun impaled with a spear) than the red comets. A sun is a star, but a comet is not. Alternately, this could refer to the dying Arthur Dayne, whose family seat is Starfall., but it is most likely Martell. Also, he was born under a “Bleeding Star(k)” … badum this. Finally, Jon is the dragon, and he awoke out of the stones of the Red Mountains, an area where the “Stone Dornish” inhabit the land.

Daenerys Targaryen is the Prince That Was Promised because House Stark was not promised a male spouse. During the last winter, the Kingdoms fought a Civil War; The Dance of Dragons. When hostilities escalated, the black Targaryens entered an alliance with House Stark. A Pact was signed, known as "The Pact of Ice and Fire." Nobody knows exactly what the Pact itself said, but according to the World of Ice and fire, this pact between Cregan Stark, Lord of Winterfell, and Jacaerys Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone, promised House Stark a Targaryen PRINCESS in exchange for Cregan's help in taking King's Landing. Also, left a a cache of dragon eggs at Winterfell. Both Princess Rhaenyra and Prince Jacaerys died along with almost all remaining Targaryen Princesses alive at the time of the pact, so this marriage never happened. Cregan settled for Alysanne Blackwood instead. Subsequently, Aegon III's daughters were asked to marry their brothers. Years of internal conflict and three more civil wars have followed.

Knowing that the Valyrian word for Prince is gender neutral, it is feasible that this Pact of Ice and Fire did not specify whether or not it was a Prince or a Princess.. This is probably what got Rhaegar interested in the whole matter to begin with. Later, Rhaegar changes his mind and believes that his son will be TPTWP. However, in the House of the Undying, after calling baby Aegon TPTWP, he immediately looks at Daenerys as if to infer something. If the pact was made in Valyrian, then House Stark could’ve gotten either a male or a female, but I don’t know many Starks that speak High Valyrian. House Stark was promised a female Targaryen Prince (Princess) because they made a pact in a language that specifies gender. The promise was made in Westerosi while the prophecy was made in Valyrian. Therefore, Daenerys Targaryen is The Princess That Was Promised (to Cregan Stark).

What about lightbringer? Will Jon have to kill Dany? I hope not. I believe that Ice is lightbringer, but I’m still contemplating how it will be reforged and who represents Nissa Nissa (my first hunch is Cersei). Does Azor Ahai himself have to drive the blade into the heart or does it just have to be his sword?” I'm not entirely positive..

What about the three heads? I believe this refers to Jon and Dany's child, because Rhaegar is looking at his own infant child while making the statement. Alternately, it could refer to fAegon, but I highly doubt it.

You have it backwards. Dany is the AA reborn archetype, and she had to kill her beloved to create her flaming weapons. Jon is TPTWP archetype, being of the aerys rhaella line and the sone of Rheagar 

[BalerionTheCat]

Rhaegar believes the Prince has the song if Ice and Fire. Only Jon has both Ice and Fire. And should be the prince. Daenerys is only fire, as it seems for AA. So, if one is the Prince and the other AA, I'd rather see Jon as the Prince and Daenerys as AAR.

[irishpisano]

On 9/15/2017 at 2:37 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

You have it backwards. Dany is the AA reborn archetype, and she had to kill her beloved to create her flaming weapons. Jon is TPTWP archetype, being of the aerys rhaella line and the sone of Rheagar 

If Dany is Azor Ahai.... who is her Nissa Nissa?

And what of Jon's dream in which he sees himself clad in armor of black ice, wielding a flaming sword atop the wall?  (Sound like Jon's dreaming he's AA)

 

I think Dany = AA is a reach.....

 

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[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, irishpisano said:

If Dany is Azor Ahai.... who is her Nissa Nissa?

Drogo 

1 hour ago, irishpisano said:

And what of Jon's dream in which he sees himself clad in armor of black ice, wielding a flaming sword atop the wall?  (Sound like Jon's dreaming he's AA)

There is nothing in the myth about AA that says anything about a suit of black ice armor. Dany on the other hand actually has weapons that wield fire, and she has used them in combat

1 hour ago, irishpisano said:

I think Dany = AA is a reach.

No more of a reach than Jon, who has no nissa nissa and no flaming weapons 

[irishpisano]

Jon's Nissa Nissa is Dany, and his lightbringer is Dawn (yes, I'm still holding to that theory)

 

Drogo as Nissa Nissa?  convince me, because this seems contrived......

And, no, nothing in the myth says AA wears black ice armor, but I see you're ignoring the part of the dream in which Jon's wielding a flaming sword.

And there is the fact that, as another pointed out, Jon is ice and fire made flesh, and this is the song of ice and fire... dany is pure fire... and in one of Dany's visions she sees Rhaegar say, "his will be the song of ice and fire."

all signs point to Jon...

 

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