Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

SerJeremiahLouistark

What did Ned know?

Recommended Posts

I briefly touched on this in another thread but I think it deserves its own thread.  

 

I am of the opinion now that Arthur Dayne and the rest of the Kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy because they were protecting not only Rhaegar's child but their rightful King of the 7 Kingdoms.  Rhaegar, Aerys, and Rhaegar's other children are dead.  Kingsguard guards the King.  

When Ned speaks with Lyanna before her death.  Was her mention of Aegon Targaryean enough for Ned to deduce that there was a marriage, and Jon is actually the trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and not a bastard, and the rightful King.  

Robert and Ned were not on the best terms at this time.  Does anyone else feel Ned just brushed this all off and created his story that has stuck to everyone in Westeros save a few currently and felt his loyalty was to Robert.  Did Ned ever at anytime question this, could he have struggled internally with Robert being King or his nephew being King?  If Jon hadn't gone to the wall, when Robert died would Ned have still backed Stannis?  

Im very interested in the internal struggle and questioning Ned went through if any.  Or did he just accept that the Targaryean line was finished and the best thing to do was raise him as his bastard, and there wasn't much struggle at all with what to do and maybe one day he would tell Jon and want Jon to keep it to himself, and then when Jon went the wall he felt that was a great opportunity to give Jon that information once he is under the protection of the Nights Watch.  

This fascinates me and I know we may not ever know.  But I like hearing opinions.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

we have already shared thought on the matter a little, but I think Ned realised it was a trueborn child.

I don't think he wanted Aegon/Jon on the Throne. He did not want to be hand. In the Game of Thrones you win or you die, and I think that wasn't lost on Ned. He wanted his family far away from the snake pit, I think.

He may not have fully believed in Roberts reign, but he wouldn't openly oppose it. It was better with Robert than it was before the rebellion. 

He could have planned to tell Jon under the protection of the NW, but Robert wanted every single Targaryen dead. I think he might have wanted to tell after Robert died. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Ashara_Dayne said:

we have already shared thought on the matter a little, but I think Ned realised it was a trueborn child.

I don't think he wanted Aegon/Jon on the Throne. He did not want to be hand. In the Game of Thrones you win or you die, and I think that wasn't lost on Ned. He wanted his family far away from the snake pit, I think.

He may not have fully believed in Roberts reign, but he wouldn't openly oppose it. It was better with Robert than it was before the rebellion. 

He could have planned to tell Jon under the protection of the NW, but Robert wanted every single Targaryen dead. I think he might have wanted to tell after Robert died. 

 

He told Jon he would tell him who his mother was the next time they saw each other. Jon would be no threat to Robert by that point. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Ashara_Dayne said:

He may not have fully believed in Roberts reign, but he wouldn't openly oppose it. It was better with Robert than it was before the rebellion.

Have to disagree and thanks to Robert the lannisters have control of the iron throne. Imagine a united 7 kingdoms under the mad king or his heir ready to wipe out the undead threat without breaking a sweat. Look at westeros now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lyanna tells Ned her son is named Aegon Targaryen, and not Aegon Sand. So Ned must have known they married.

In fact, it makes the most sense, because a Targaryen bastard would never be a dangerous to Robert as a legitimate one, and Ned took it upon himself to protect Jon at all costs.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

by this point the targs had completly lost. He couldn't have put jon on the throne even if he wanted too and robert would have killed jon in a fit of rage as we all know and so did ned and his sister. He did the right thing by keeping it hidden though I think eventually he should have told catelyn after he trusted her and maybe jon as well though it may hurt jon to know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Ashara_Dayne said:

we have already shared thought on the matter a little, but I think Ned realised it was a trueborn child.

I don't think he wanted Aegon/Jon on the Throne. He did not want to be hand. In the Game of Thrones you win or you die, and I think that wasn't lost on Ned. He wanted his family far away from the snake pit, I think.

He may not have fully believed in Roberts reign, but he wouldn't openly oppose it. It was better with Robert than it was before the rebellion. 

He could have planned to tell Jon under the protection of the NW, but Robert wanted every single Targaryen dead. I think he might have wanted to tell after Robert died. 

 

I've always thought the same thing, Ned never enjoyed his time south, he was a northerner through and through.  I don't think he ever thought about Jon on the iron throne, only protecting him, which is why he let him join the Nights Watch. But you're right, he would have waited until Robert died, he knew how fanatical he was about killing any Targaryen, true born or bastard born.  I don't believe Jon being a sworn brother would have stopped Robert for a second, but his relationship with Ned would have been an interesting conflict.

In the first book Ned laments how many promises he has to keep, but we know Ned's honor, he'd never break a promise.  They were definitely weighing him down though.

I think his whole intention is obvious as the only lie Ned probably ever told to anyone was telling Robert that Jon was his.  Lyanna was family, his promise to her trumped all others.

Hmmm, but did Ned ever tell anyone about his thing with Ashara Dayne.....?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's just bear in mind that being the heir and being the king are two different things. Even if Jon was the rightful heir, his chances of becoming king were always very slim. A shit-ton of things have happened to make that a possibility (a certainty in next season I guess). Point is, in Ned's eyes, Jon being the rightful heir may not have been as important as viewers/readers might think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, House Rootbreaker said:

In the first book Ned laments how many promises he has to keep, but we know Ned's honor, he'd never break a promise.  They were definitely weighing him down though.

I think his whole intention is obvious as the only lie Ned probably ever told to anyone was telling Robert that Jon was his.  Lyanna was family, his promise to her trumped all others.

Hmmm, but did Ned ever tell anyone about his thing with Ashara Dayne.....?

I am currently rewatching and I think that Sean Bean did a pretty good job of giving shape to being weighed down by it. Now I know the show isn't the books, but I still think he was conflicted all the time. Now I would say the only thing he had to do was dropping one line to his wife in the style of isn't mine and can't tell you anything else, and it would have been a lot better. But that's just my take on it. If it were me I would have tried to pass the kid off as Benjens (with his permission ofc).

When speaking to Robert about women in their past, he named Wylla, not Ashara. Barristan Selmy said something about her looking at him at the tournament, but that barely means anything yet.I doubt anyone who wasn't there (hello Howland lurking in the Shadows and probably Bran) knows about it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ashara_Dayne said:

I am currently rewatching and I think that Sean Bean did a pretty good job of giving shape to being weighed down by it. Now I know the show isn't the books, but I still think he was conflicted all the time. Now I would say the only thing he had to do was dropping one line to his wife in the style of isn't mine and can't tell you anything else, and it would have been a lot better. But that's just my take on it. If it were me I would have tried to pass the kid off as Benjens (with his permission ofc).

When speaking to Robert about women in their past, he named Wylla, not Ashara. Barristan Selmy said something about her looking at him at the tournament, but that barely means anything yet.I doubt anyone who wasn't there (hello Howland lurking in the Shadows and probably Bran) knows about it.

 

Oh, I need my memory refreshing a little here because it has been ages since I read the first book.  My understanding though is that Wylla was the wet nurse and yes there are strong hints at an affair between Ned and Ashara.  If I recall correctly she had a stillborn baby girl.  My impression was that this could have been Ned's and that this could have given him the idea to pass Jon as his bastard child but my recollection may not be accurate and I may have implied more than is actually cannon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Oh, I need my memory refreshing a little here because it has been ages since I read the first book.  My understanding though is that Wylla was the wet nurse and yes there are strong hints at an affair between Ned and Ashara.  If I recall correctly she had a stillborn baby girl.  My impression was that this could have been Ned's and that this could have given him the idea to pass Jon as his bastard child but my recollection may not be accurate and I may have implied more than is actually cannon.

This is all true.

I'm just not so sure that child even existed. And it also makes no sense to me that they'd hide a leading lady of a great house as a maid, especially since she had purple eyes. That would attract attention and I found no evidence of contact lenses in Westeros yet.

Your love interest killing your brother might just be enough to jump and die or flee Starfall (i'm not convinced she's dead).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Ashara_Dayne said:

This is all true.

I'm just not so sure that child even existed. And it also makes no sense to me that they'd hide a leading lady of a great house as a maid, especially since she had purple eyes. That would attract attention and I found no evidence of contact lenses in Westeros yet.

Your love interest killing your brother might just be enough to jump and die or flee Starfall (i'm not convinced she's dead).

My understanding is that the child was born dead.  Now, yes I have heard a lot of theories about Ashara being alive including some involving Septa Lemore.  I must admit I do not have a firm theory myself here but it is a fascinating topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

My understanding is that the child was born dead.  Now, yes I have heard a lot of theories about Ashara being alive including some involving Septa Lemore.  I must admit I do not have a firm theory myself here but it is a fascinating topic.

Yeh that seems to be the consensus. Doesn't mean I fully believe it. That would mean Ned would have been deflowering a woman he wasn't married to and that would not work with his honour, imo. But that's just my opinion pls don't shoot.

I don't have a firm theory either yet. I'm still looking for candidates. Heck she could have become a courtesan.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Ashara_Dayne said:

Yeh that seems to be the consensus. Doesn't mean I fully believe it. That would mean Ned would have been deflowering a woman he wasn't married to and that would not work with his honour, imo. But that's just my opinion pls don't shoot.

I don't have a firm theory either yet. I'm still looking for candidates. Heck she could have become a courtesan.

 

I guess he had not known Cat very long at the time so okay looks as if he was unfaithful that time but since he didn't really made a habit of it I guess I would have forgiven him if I were Cat.  I feel that part of Cat's problem is that Jon kept reminding her of his "infidelity."  If Ned has just simply said that he had a one off affair at the beginning of the marriage she may not have been quite so upset about it.  This of course was very unfortunate for Jon, and I am sure for Ned to see too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I guess he had not known Cat very long at the time so okay looks as if he was unfaithful that time but since he didn't really made a habit of it I guess I would have forgiven him if I were Cat.  I feel that part of Cat's problem is that Jon kept reminding her of his "infidelity."  If Ned has just simply said that he had a one off affair at the beginning of the marriage she may not have been quite so upset about it.  This of course was very unfortunate for Jon, and I am sure for Ned to see too.

I wasn't referring to being unfaithful, sorry. I was referring to the fact that a woman would 'lose her worth' if she wasn't a virgin when married in many partriarchal societies. I doubt Ned would do that to anyone.

I think I've said it before, but he should have passed the kid of as Benjens mistake. 

The decision he made, hurt everyone, and while Cat was being way too harsh on Jon, I can see where she came from. She had no choice in the matter whatsoever and that f-ed everything up.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Ashara_Dayne said:

I wasn't referring to being unfaithful, sorry. I was referring to the fact that a woman would 'lose her worth' if she wasn't a virgin when married in many partriarchal societies. I doubt Ned would do that to anyone.

I think I've said it before, but he should have passed the kid of as Benjens mistake. 

The decision he made, hurt everyone, and while Cat was being way too harsh on Jon, I can see where she came from. She had no choice in the matter whatsoever and that f-ed everything up.

 

Yes, there is merit in what you are saying for instance that was what led Lord Tully to marry Lysa to someone much, much older because her choices were limited.  Now, I guess that did not worked for Cersei who was able to marry the King but then again the Lannisters provided a lot of gold for him...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cersei wanted to marry Rhaegar. I doubt she ever wanted Robert. I really really doubt it.

I don't think she had much say in those matters either. As Lysa didn't.

That's why I think Ned would not deliberately mess up someones future. Especially someone he at least liked and probably loved.

(He did mess up a lot, but never because he wanted to)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was under the impression Ned and Ashara had something going on at the tourney at Harrenhal? That was before Ned was betrothed to Catelyn so it was totally fine for him to have eyes for her at that point.  I agree that he probably didn't touch her when he was in Dorne and brought the sword back to the Dayne house.  My best guess is Ashara had feelings for Ned, even though they were never actually "together" and when he delivered the sword maybe that was the tragedy she just couldn't bare. Losing her brother at the hands of someone she had feelings for. I do think she is dead though...

I think Ashara and Wylla/Jon are totally separate things to Ned. If you remember Edric Dayne recounts to Ayra how he and Jon had the same wet nurse, Wylla.  Ned probably used Wylla all this time because there obviously were other witnesses to Jon being nursed by this woman and hers was a convenient name to use.

It was tough seeing Catelyn treat Ned and Jon that way but Ned put up with it because he knew Robert knowing the truth was much more dangerous. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×